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  • JhuiJhui
    edited July 2014

    how are digsites mazes?  pretty sure it's a big square 5-6 levels deep?

    edit: also being in lesserform puts me at risk for cave-ins!  Seems balanced!

    image
  • StrataStrata United States of Derp

    They're only mazes until they get mapped? Then they're not so difficult to navigate anymore I would guess. Having played muds before we had fancy mappers and crowd/community maintained maps, I understand her frustration. Not having a map sucks.

  • DunnDunn

    I think someone hijacked Carmain's account.


    Yes.



  • MishgulMishgul Trondheim, Norway

    Yes

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • MithridatesMithridates

    The digging in general is kind of a silly mechanic I think.  Not really much fun, but if people enjoy it then so be it!

  • SarapisSarapis
    Strata said:

    They're only mazes until they get mapped? Then they're not so difficult to navigate anymore I would guess. Having played muds before we had fancy mappers and crowd/community maintained maps, I understand her frustration. Not having a map sucks.

    They're big blocks of X by Y by Z rooms. Players create the exits themselves by tunneling through. If you tunnel nw from room A to room B, there'll now be a nw/sw exit connecting the two rooms. 

    However, once the Digsite collapses due to too much digging, all the exits reset and players have to start over.

  • JhuiJhui
    @Iakimen is the man, thank god he has the sense to toughen you guys up :)
    image
  • SenaSena
    Tohran said:
    It perfectly allows for "lol I'm a psychopath." to be justified so long as it's not overdone, and noone issues.

    With the bolded, this was pretty much the case even with the old PK rules. For the most part, if nobody issues, nobody gets in trouble (outside of very obvious things that the admin are going to notice and handle on their own, like mass newbie killing).

  • MithridatesMithridates

    but issues are for wussies.

  • ExelethrilExelethril

    It's kinda fun, the digsites are like Achaean Minecraft where the Ashtani are those green things that chase you. Like Jhui/Nyder said, it'll be more fun if everyone agreed not to hoard and just fought with the relics.


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  • TohranTohran Everywhere you don't want to be. I'm the anti-Visa!
    Exelethril said:

    It's kinda fun, the digsites are like Achaean Minecraft where the Ashtani are those green things that chase you. Like Jhui/Nyder said, it'll be more fun if everyone agreed not to hoard and just fought with the relics.

    Dude... you just called @Jhui‌, @Nemutaur‌, @Dunn‌, and the others Creepers.


  • JarrodJarrod

    I assume the digsites being PK, in addition to adding a conflict to that stage of the event, is also beneficial to curb the kind of ludicrous issues that were arising towards the end of the event last month.

    If someone is obviously going to grab the relic, and you group up and jump them the instant they touch it, and someone dies to some room attacks or getting attacked as the fight explodes from there, they might issue (as evidenced by this exact situation happening). Not everyone would, but some people would. With the digsites being open PK, this kind of stuff is pre-handled in a type of conflict that will exist for a long time.

    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • DatriusDatrius

    Dude, @Sarapis, that was totally my mentality. While they were all fighting, I started doing my pattern i do in Minecraft, go all the way down and start tunneling in a pattern. Though it got people killed a couple times. Heh.

  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, Florida
    Halios said:
    Jhui said:

    the only thing that made digging fun was the potential for the honors line for being the first.


    Why would someone specifically want to go dig <direction> and trigger the GTFO msg to gare?  Doesn't sound fun enough to warrant getting rid of the PK aspect.


    PK in the digsites will make it much more fun and it's a different kind of conflict as opposed to the same thing every time with raiding a city.  All you need is another monk to counter radiance or 'enter wilderness'.  You guys just got unlucky that i gemmed after a cave in and dug 1 room and dropped monos and had Dunn yank or Nemutaur barge me when you prismed.

    Edit:  Not to mention it makes perfectly valid RP sense to murder someone for going after a relic in a digsite that I, myself, am going for.  If only the new PK rules were actually upheld the way they should be, we wouldn't need it clarified as open pk.

    The section I've bolded is the biggest confusion for me when it comes to the new pk rules and how people interpret them.

    I was a combatant during the age of pk-lawyering. It was absolutely -horrible-. Not just for combatants, but for everyone. It forced combatants to toe the line and sometimes stomp all over it just to have an immersive and cohesive sense of gameplay. I'm not talking about RP or anything, I'm talking about the idea that I could log in and play my character fluidly in engagements and day-to-day activities without having to consult a rulebook or message someone oocly and completely pause any conflict to discuss whether or not one of us had "pk."  This manifested most prominently in insults and threats. People would go on the public news, insult an entire city and call all of its combatants ninnies and poo-poo heads and all other sorts of lurid terms, and then issue if someone attacked them because they weren't a combatant blah blah.

    It forced people into divided lines and roles, which is absurd. If you're not a combatant, and you don't want to engage in a conflict which could result in your death, then don't venture out into what is literally a neutral wilderness (tundra, dig sites, whatever) and attempt to inherently impede the progress of other factions by seizing the glory/goods/whatever for yourself.

    The ban of pk in the outposts made sense to me because there wasn't a unified opportunity. It was people radiancing underleveled players who were bashing the outpost in large groups with their citymates. That is a clear situation where pk might not make as much sense. Even then, I was fine with defending those attempts and the ensuing conflicts.

    However, the digsite is an open area, where people are seeking to gain something as part of a world event. It is wholly ABSURD for you to claim that you should be able to go to an area side by side with people who are DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED to your character's ethos/state of being in the realms, and then just dig and ignore them and do nothing about it.

    I don't want to play a game where there are people who only want to play one side of the game, and as a result, complain that their "fun" is being ruined by that side is a part of a world event.

    If we do that, it quickly reverts to the days of "non-coms" skirting the "pk rulebook" in order to effect the greatest gain for their faction, all while hiding behind their immunity. Not to shame and name, but if anyone remembers what used to happen during raids with "non-coms" grabbing corpses and then rezing them, and then issuing if they themselves were attacked, it's just a blatant IC/OOC break and a joke for any kind of fluid gameplay.

    This paradigm reared its ugly head recently when I was defiling with someone and we were swarmed upon and killed by a number of said Divine's followers. I took my death and was going to pray, when the person I was with started talking about how they were going to issue the people, etc. I don't understand this logic. You're standing in front of a physical shrine to the Divine that these people in game have pledged their lives to uphold/defend the values of. Damn right if you come to my house and shit on my lawn, you're gonna get hit. To think otherwise is ridiculous.

    This turned into a longer rant than I intended, but I don't feel any of it is superfluous or unwarranted. If your definition of fun doesn't include fighting for your right to beat other factions in events, or their ability to deter you via pk from doing the same, then I think you're better off just joining the clergy and RPing a hermit.

    I agree with parts of your posts - the old rules were dumb and I am glad they are gone. It good to merge the "RP" aspects with the "PK" aspects, at least as much as possible/people are willing to tolerate.

    That said, you have to realize the digsites started out as completely within the normal rules. Just because it does not follow what you feel you should have to do - kill someone to get what you want - doesn't mean it's not full of conflict. Conflict is not always about physical fighting. It would be fairly easy to explain - perhaps fighting in those digsites just makes them too unstable due to the forces of physical and magical power, and it's likely to get you all killed than actually accomplish any kind of goal. In this instance, I wouldn't mind there being some other (not too abuseable) forms of prevention, such as allowing walls of various kinds, blocking, and so on. I'm not against conflict, I'm only really against it being yet more hours of fighting than we already have to do once in possession, or seeking, the relics.

    It's a race to find the relic, and just wiping the floor with people in combat kind of lessens the fun for me, personally, of what I found to be a different sort of danger. I feel like it could expand into something much different, with different challenges, without it absolutely having to be combat-surrounded. Eleusis is far, far away from not being okay with combat - a good deal of us engage in it daily - I just -also- want there to be other aspects, which is what I thought these digsites were meant to be. If they're just going to degenerate into free pk areas... it's not as fun for me (and some others).

    If we reverted it back to normal rules, why not introduce different kinds of conflict within them instead? I'm definitely not afraid to die, I just like having fun in other ways. The danger is great. Competition to find the relics is great. But variety is the spice of life for a reason.

    I just feel like it could be better done, and conflict introduced in new/interesting ways.

    And I love too                                                                          Be still, my indelible friend
    That love soon might end                                                         You are unbreaking
    And be known in its aching                                                      Though quaking
    Shown in this shaking                                                             Though crazy
    Lately of my wasteland, baby                                                 That's just wasteland, baby
  • HaliosHalios
    I think the answer is not to make hard-lined rules about some events being non-pk, but instead installing mechanics that prevent it.

    Perhaps in the Maklak/Yudhi event, instead of just random entrances to the outposts, there could have been portals that only followers of said portal-creator could enter, which led to an area (like an outpost or barracks or fort or whatever) that the opposing force controlled.

    Thus you don't have people realizing that the outpost is in the same coded "area" as the Mhojave Desert, and radiancing people in the farthest room possible.

    Maybe for the digsites you create some kind of faction-based division. Maybe one side is searching for "cursed" relics and the other for "cleansed" relics, whatever it may be.

    The point is there are very simple (in theory, not coding) ways to divide pk events from non-pk events.

    I still stand by the point that any time there is an event that factions are divided within (which is 99% of them -- I'm lookin at you, Bal'met forced cooperation between Mhaldor and everyone else with half-hearted Sartan RP backing it up) with a unified goal or singular object/"area" of contention, then it will be contested, and that contest will include pk, as is a natural facet of the game.

  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, Florida
    It's an interesting thought, and I follow the general idea of it.

    As it stands, it's one relic per digsite, so I don't believe having divided "sides" with a relic each is going to work, at least not as following the current story of these relics.

    That said, I would be okay with things like... so many offensive commands (directed at other players) ends up with a cave-in that kills you, while other kinds of commands would allow you leeway to fugger with the opposing team. Rooms with vibes set it up in it (or rites - hi Targossas!). Icewalls, stonewalls, firewalls (to prevent those pesky other walls!), rubble (oh god I hate you Hirst), etc etc. Stuff that slows people down, makes it hard to get where you're going, but doesn't outright kill people (unless you're dumb or lag like a slug). Heck, the admin could even create new things that could only be tapped into within these digsites. It should be noted that normal rules would be in place, so marks and infamous would still be in No Man's Land.

    I'm not inherently against pk, there is definitely going to be plenty abound no matter what. I think we've dealt with 2-3 raids that lasted 2-4 hours each, so far? And that's not counting whatever fighting Eleusis started on EU times, or any fighting happening elsewhere too (like with Alrena). I just think spreading around the love a bit in terms of conflict is never a bad thing.

    It's a relationship here people, lets compromise!

    And I love too                                                                          Be still, my indelible friend
    That love soon might end                                                         You are unbreaking
    And be known in its aching                                                      Though quaking
    Shown in this shaking                                                             Though crazy
    Lately of my wasteland, baby                                                 That's just wasteland, baby
  • MithridatesMithridates

    Tldr

  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the Storm
    edited July 2014
    Mithridates said:

    Tldr

    Insightful.

    Now could someone please just tell me where the digsites are?


    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
  • TriakTriak
    *******************************[ Relics status ]*******************************
    Name                                Location                                     
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    the Golden Braid                    Held by Yae
    Earthshaker                         Held by Yae
    the Mindring                        Held by Triak
    the Dragon Bow                      Held by Dalran
    Paincatcher                         Held by Triak
    Soulfinder                          Held by Triak
    Lifegiver                           Held by Yae


    Tapping into the unfathomable depths of your power, you sense that Yae is at 4 levels below Base of
    the Eleusian Gatehouse, in Eleusis.  (?)

    Tapping into the unfathomable depths of your power, you sense that Yae is at 9 levels below Base of
    the Eleusian Gatehouse, in Eleusis.  (?)

  • MishgulMishgul Trondheim, Norway

    Eleusis using em like they use their house gold.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
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