Relics

Shiro

I am not convinced that raiding to force them to bring out the artifacts would result in what you want. 

If anything I figure it will make people more stubborn.

Jhui

maybe!  hence, I made this topic.

But it's all we've got

Melodie

I have to agree with Shiro.

Also, while I'm not crazy about the relics themselves, I was having a lot of fun with the digsites... until suddenly apparently there was an announce in the middle of our digging that we're free pk and they come in and we're like... what?

I think it would have been courteous to give an OOC announce game-wide about that. Obviously too late now, but it was a little unfriendly to present that rule suddenly and without real warning. Secondly, I actually wish this wasn't the state of those areas. I much prefer the idea of having to compete against people within the digsites, enemies and allies alike, all hoping to get the relic before anyone else. It introduced a non-pk (though still very dangerous) aspect to it that I quite enjoyed. With the PK part, it's now become something that is more tedious than enjoyable.

Can we please revert the digsites back to normal rules?

Edit: Fixed for clarity.

Santar

Just make them hard reset every 4-8 hours on a random timer. Remove all the other rules. Let people idle with them or hide with them if they want. Just reset every 4-8 hours and it lets more people get touches on them/have fun with them. It also encourages people use them, since they know they're going to lose them soon.

Seragorn

I agree, they should definitely reset on a relatively quick timer once you qq so they remain in circulation.  People will be a lot less likely to care about hoarding them if they're forced to be in harms way.

Ashtan has barely used them in the group combat situations and if you look at the way they work they may be powerful but very hard to use.  As Jhui mentioned to use Earthshaker without crippling your own group you must be disconnected from them, and thus at high risk of being picked off and losing it.  The lifegiver relic defense (not sure if this is a bug or not) only works if you are in possession of the relic, thus giving a single person an additional starburst, hardly fearsome.

As with all changes, once people fully understand the limitations and adapt to them, I cant imagine these things being the game changers that everyone is making them out to be.

Just to clarify, we expected when Austere qq'd that the relic would reset, we intentionally gave it to him to test the theory, it was in no way a ploy to keep it.

Tohran

Seragorn said:

I agree, they should definitely reset on a relatively quick timer once you qq so they remain in circulation.  People will be a lot less likely to care about hoarding them if they're forced to be in harms way.

Ashtan has barely used them in the group combat situations and if you look at the way they work they may be powerful but very hard to use.  As Jhui mentioned to use Earthshaker without crippling your own group you must be disconnected from them, and thus at high risk of being picked off and losing it.  The lifegiver relic defense (not sure if this is a bug or not) only works if you are in possession of the relic, thus giving a single person an additional starburst, hardly fearsome.

As with all changes, once people fully understand the limitations and adapt to them, I cant imagine these things being the game changers that everyone is making them out to be.

Just to clarify, we expected when Austere qq'd that the relic would reset, we intentionally gave it to him to test the theory, it was in no way a ploy to keep it.

What kind of output does that braid have?

I think taking the Open PK away, and adding a hard reset of 2-3 hours would make the relics a lot more enjoyable. Noone is going to want to walk around with these items while @Rangor‌ and the "goon squad" or @Jhui‌ and his "A-Team" are running around. Meaning they'll just sit in a city, not being used, just being hoarded away. 

Pretty sure we're supposed to use these things, not just keep them to ourselves, because noone wants Ashtan to have MORE power. I have no interest in any of these things, except the Golden Braid thing, but that's because I'm saving up gold for LMS and credits to finally get a pair of bracelets.

Masaryk

I have yet to be to these dig sites yet. I know you access them from the wilderness, but do the dig sites count towards exploration?

Makarios

They do not, no.

Sarapis

Mithridates said:

I agree, Paincatcher is like.... 

well I'd take my SoA over it any day. They're like mini-arties for people without arties.  

Hmm, it's supposed to have the same damage-absorbing effect as an SoA PLUS the damage-reflecting property.

Sarapis

Makarios said:

They do not, no.

However, the rooms you get to past the digsite do, as do the rooms at the start of the digsite. That's only 2 rooms total per digsite though.

Masaryk

Sarapis said:

Makarios said:

They do not, no.

However, the rooms you get to past the digsite do, as do the rooms at the start of the digsite. That's only 2 rooms total per digsite though.

Still rooms I need to get to eventually. Now I know I won't be dying in vain!

Bluef

Rogues are so completely out of the loop on all of this. What digsites? What relics? Bleh, there goes a little more of my exploration ranking.

Masaryk

Bluef said:

Rogues are so completely out of the loop on all of this. What digsites? What relics? Bleh, there goes a little more of my exploration ranking.

Just need to sneak over there when action is happening elsewhere!

Blujixapug

Jhui said:

breathrain bow

This gave me a different mental image.

[spoiler]It's a breath-rainbow.[/spoiler]

Masaryk

Blujixapug said:

Jhui said:

breathrain bow

This gave me a different mental image.

[spoiler]It's a breath-rainbow.[/spoiler]

Just go ahead and submit that to the Artisanal contest! Hahah.

Bluef

Masaryk said:

Bluef said:

Rogues are so completely out of the loop on all of this. What digsites? What relics? Bleh, there goes a little more of my exploration ranking.

Just need to sneak over there when action is happening elsewhere!

Sneak over where? The problem for me is that other than the Events posting, which makes a vague reference to magma wyverns and cave ins, there is no IC information that would lead Bluef (or any rogue) toward knowing where this was, etc.

It isn't like cities are giving up information easily either, so unless you want to metagame there's no way to access anything IC for some people. I think the relics themselves are cool but I'm disappointed that this is another city v. city thing lessening my opportunities for exploration.

Makarios

Its probably worth noting that only two cities were told where any of the digsites were (the two that caused Yudhishthira to win the Reckoning). Everyone else is in exactly the same position as the rogues, completely on their own. The digsites also will stick around, so you will find them eventually, even if you have no part of the current stuff at all (intentionally or otherwise).

Alrena

I have to agree that making the digsites free pk was a poor choice. It was something that was fun and already dangerous, it didn't need the tedium of PK in it on top. I mean, radiance is incredibly powerful in the digsite with the mazelike tunnels that are quickly formed. Prisming is your only option (if you can't find the wilderness exit in time), and there was a totem waiting for us if we did.

Pretty please make the digsites non-pk again, there's plenty of pk going on as a result of simply owning them already. See: Ashtani raids to take the relics from Eleusis. 

(I admit to qq'ing with most of the relics in hopes of discouraging another 4 hour raid, because I know most of Eleusis will get tired of those very quickly. It was also 1am for me and I was sleepy.) 

I do agree with making them reset faster, so that no city/person can hold on to them for long and it won't be worth hoarding or raiding for. Just don't do it all on Serenade, that's effectively making it impossible for EU people to ever retrieve them. Every 4 hours seems good.

Aegoth

PK is not tedium. It's the lifeblood of the game. Being able to find ans horde relics without danger or consequence would be lame. Pk free dig sites ensure that anyone who wants to participate needs to be on their toes, and that's hardly a bad thing. The body may be made stronger through conflict!

Vortok

Bluef said:

Masaryk said:

Bluef said:

Rogues are so completely out of the loop on all of this. What digsites? What relics? Bleh, there goes a little more of my exploration ranking.

Just need to sneak over there when action is happening elsewhere!

Sneak over where? The problem for me is that other than the Events posting, which makes a vague reference to magma wyverns and cave ins, there is no IC information that would lead Bluef (or any rogue) toward knowing where this was, etc.

It isn't like cities are giving up information easily either, so unless you want to metagame there's no way to access anything IC for some people. I think the relics themselves are cool but I'm disappointed that this is another city v. city thing lessening my opportunities for exploration.

I would suggest that this may be an effect of the explorer rankings often being a competition of who can get the highest rank and many deciding to be a bit antisocial about it and trying to hoard secret info (least that's how it seemed at high ranks back in the day).

If it was closer to being a fellowship (as the ingame name might suggest) of people who simply want to see more of the world as it unfolds piece by piece, and thus share with each other, then the concern about lack of info would likely resolve itself naturally.

So I feel that it's a player problem (that players can solve) rather than an issue of org membership.

That's how I see it, anyway.

Alrena

Aegoth said:

PK is not tedium. It's the lifeblood of the game. Being able to find ans horde relics without danger or consequence would be lame. Pk free dig sites ensure that anyone who wants to participate needs to be on their toes, and that's hardly a bad thing. The body may be made stronger through conflict!

Clearly you haven't been fighting in the digsites. Merely holding a relic makes you free pk, so where are you coming from with "no danger or consequence"? Pk free dig sites are horrible because of how easy it is to camp the entrance with a totem, how easy it is to radiance people, and how easy it is to just get entrenched. Yes, you could say that's rectified when the tunnels collapse and everyone has to leave or die, but that's still a very tedious way to do it.

Sometimes, non-pk competitions can be fun too as it gives everyone a fair chance. Marks can still kill each other and the infamous, and you're still free pk as soon as you pick up the relic.

As a sidenote, it would have been nice to give us a heads up beyond "bring allies" that it'd be free pk. An announce post while we're already digging meant we got wiped without knowing what the heck was going on.

Dunn

Sites being open PK is fine and fun. An added layer of 'holy fuck' in the already liberally glazed realm of 'holy shit' occupied by those cave ins.

Strata

Alrena said:

Aegoth said:

PK is not tedium. It's the lifeblood of the game. Being able to find ans horde relics without danger or consequence would be lame. Pk free dig sites ensure that anyone who wants to participate needs to be on their toes, and that's hardly a bad thing. The body may be made stronger through conflict!

...

Sometimes, non-pk competitions can be fun too as it [gives us a chance to grab the relic, earring out of the dig site, and then quickly return to Barracks of the Eleusian Rangers and WRITE JOURNAL for 12 hours, because] you're still free pk as soon as you pick up the relic [- thus it's not fair there's a possibility we might get PK'd while trying to dig them up.]

fixed.

Atalkez

to me it seems like this event is pushing for more grouping up and group coordination. The digsites and relic holders being open PK just make it so that you should have a fairly sizeable group if you want to get involved there. Sure the Braid is more of a solo item for bashing, but you'll still get ganged 3 or 4 deep for it (hi @Iakimen‌ )

The direction is a good one, I think.

Alrena

Strata said:

Alrena said:

Aegoth said:

PK is not tedium. It's the lifeblood of the game. Being able to find ans horde relics without danger or consequence would be lame. Pk free dig sites ensure that anyone who wants to participate needs to be on their toes, and that's hardly a bad thing. The body may be made stronger through conflict!

...

Sometimes, non-pk competitions can be fun too as it [gives us a chance to grab the relic, earring out of the dig site, and then quickly return to Barracks of the Eleusian Rangers and WRITE JOURNAL for 12 hours, because] you're still free pk as soon as you pick up the relic [- thus it's not fair there's a possibility we might get PK'd while trying to dig them up.]

fixed.

It's funny that your 'fix' is full of mistakes. Digsite is a different plane, can't earring out of it, only if both are inside. 

The objection with the digsite being open pk because it's very boring, frustrating conflict where one side can way too easily dig in. If I was afraid of being PK'd, I wouldn't have been out bashing and fighting back (and losing) when @Dunn and @Nemutaur came to get me. 

Mithridates

Alrena said:

The objection with the digsite being open pk because it's very boring, frustrating conflict where one side can way too easily dig in. 

I get it.

Aegoth

All this complaining about digsites being open pk just sounds like childish "waah but we want to WIN!!!!" whining. If you want to "win" then earn it. It's not like Eleusis completely lacks combatants.

Also, hording relics on people who are QQing from the game just punctuates this point. First Alrena, now Melodie. Love you Mel, but you're better than that

Strata

Yea I'm not trying to be factual here. It's all about having fun. If hoarding the relics and lobbying on forums for less PK and other subtle things that will allow you to more easily hoard them in the future is fun for you, then that's what matters.

Alrena

Aegoth said:

All this complaining about digsites being open pk just sounds like childish "waah but we want to WIN!!!!" whining. If you want to "win" then earn it. It's not like Eleusis completely lacks combatants.

Also, hording relics on people who are QQing from the game just punctuates this point. First Alrena, now Melodie. Love you Mel, but you're better than that

This is the problem we had in rants. People assume things that are plain wrong out of some superiority complex. It's not about wanting to win, it's about having fun. Some people liked the mini-game of digging around, but if you seriously can't understand the problem of someone radiancing deep in an unmapped maze where every room is one of two possibilities.

As for QQ'ing with them, the alternative is holding on to them and sitting on Gatehouse/Battlements all the time. We -have- been using the relics, but why the hell should we have someone sit on them the entire time and forcing them to stay put? 

Eleusis "earned" the majority of those relics by killing the Ashtani holding them. They've changed hands plenty, and they'll continue to do so, so stop whining about us "hoarding" them when we're just holding them until we want to use them. You're making some big assumptions from someone who's not even remotely involved in this whole relic business.

Jhui

the only thing that made digging fun was the potential for the honors line for being the first.

Why would someone specifically want to go dig <direction> and trigger the GTFO msg to gare?  Doesn't sound fun enough to warrant getting rid of the PK aspect.

PK in the digsites will make it much more fun and it's a different kind of conflict as opposed to the same thing every time with raiding a city.  All you need is another monk to counter radiance or 'enter wilderness'.  You guys just got unlucky that i gemmed after a cave in and dug 1 room and dropped monos and had Dunn yank or Nemutaur barge me when you prismed.

Edit:  Not to mention it makes perfectly valid RP sense to murder someone for going after a relic in a digsite that I, myself, am going for.  If only the new PK rules were actually upheld the way they should be, we wouldn't need it clarified as open pk.