Bard Locking

Xer

Eh, while Minuet is strong, it's not an unstoppable truelock lol. There are plenty of ways to deal with it. In fact, plenty of people do deal with it just fine. Certain classes obviously have a it a lot easier than most - Fitness classes and Serpents would be the most notable IMO, but there are also a number of passive curing classes that allow you to stick around in room for a bit longer without giving up momentum. But even as an Apostate not using Syphon, I can survive a Bard's offensive and still carry out my offensive. If I screw up or don't think I'm going to lock them in time, I'll leave the room and reset if necessary.

So long as you don't let them stack up enough afflictions beforehand, they can't lock you instantly using Minuet. Bard against any class that has a Tree available, undeaf, and no afflictions stacked on them, shouldn't get locked. If you let the Bard stack afflictions beforehand, then yes, Minuet might be able to get you into an uncurable situation even though it feels like you shouldn't be in any danger. In essence, the 'danger' point that you need to be aware of for Bard is simply different than that of other affliction classes. If you let them have an unhindered offensive for long enough (i.e. not running, or w/e) then you will get locked, possibly much faster than any other class can lock you, but that's just how the way Bard works. Other classes have other things going for them instead.

I think more people would be annoyed at the other cheap things Bard's can do besides a quick lock. The current Bard out there prefers to lock, but she has a lot more options (which are still preventable, but still extremely frustrating to die to the first few times haha).

That being said, I wouldn't mind a longer cooldown on when Minuet resets itself, but I think it's fine as is overall tbh.

Jovolo

It's not an unblockable truelock and it's been a thing for a long, long time available in multiple instances across a range of classes. It's just because it's the most viable and relatively easy strategy a Bard can use that it's risen in popularity over the past few months. The only issue with Minuet is its inconsistent and sometimes incredibly short cooldown timer, just classlead it next time classleads open.

Rahvin

bard is a pretty ridiculously easy locking class from what I can tell so far with one setup in place.  Can't imagine how much easier it would be with a torc for unhinderable stacking or whip for old peace/para.  

Mithridates

Yeah disagree with him, he doesn't know what he's talking about. Obv Jovolo does though. 

Mishgul

When I played a serp char, forcing people to apply resto was like a ridic easy way to lock non fitnessers, but then I fought this kid Hasar who didn't have fitness, or a trigger for loki and I still couldn't lock him because he's a complete wankface.

If you can edit how you apply restoration you can avoid being locked completely by anyone that tries to force you to apply resto.

Mithridates

That's cause you're a tosser @Mishgul‌ u suk and u r a bad pker.

Xer

Well, Hasar's particular method has a fairly easy work around (though if you have to repeatedly try it, it could get expensive). But honestly, avoiding getting locked by Bard isn't hard at all - it just requires more active hinder, and an awareness of when you're in danger so you can gtfo of the room (among other options). Momentum based classes can hinder Bards while achieving their own kill method, while prep classes can just use hit and run tactics. Granted, it probably is a fairly easy setup against people who don't know how to stop the lock, but against those that do, it becomes far more difficult and by no means an unstoppable lock.

Terra

There are actually some particularly creative ways to stop it that don't even require hindering, as well, for what it's worth.

I personally would never get locked by me even as alchemist if I adjusted my curing properly.

Jhui

dunno why people think alchies are bad curers.  They have educe salt which is essentially a 2.5 sec tree tattoo that can be combined with offense.

Terra

That too!

Strata

Didn't know alchemists had an ability like that. I guess the same could be said in regard to occultists since they have fool tarot though.

Edit: I'm not officially qualified to speak on any of this, but it seems to me that with the adoption of server-side hybrid systems, we're going to start noticing a trend toward affliction classes being a lot less potent than they used to be (in general) even though mechanically "it's possible." It is my hope that next classleads people will think about this and maybe we can come up with some ideas to remedy that eventual status-quo (look at all these cool mechanics that don't actually work realistically). There will always be a class to hop to that has some niche combination or usage of ability to have an edge over everyone - and those in-the-know will follow that, as they have since the beginning of time.

Jhui

Strata said:

Didn't know alchemists had an ability like that. I guess the same could be said in regard to occultists since they have fool tarot though.

Difference is occie basically resets their own offense by fooling, and it has a cooldown.

Salt can literally be looped while tempering and wracking.  The drawback of salt is you can't truewrack, but sometimes it's worth giving that up.

Dalran

EDIT2: Ignore me, I'm scrublord.

Loalaine

I know this is quite an old post so just wondering if most of it is still applicable? Sorry for being completely unaware of this sorta stuff, just starting to learn. 

Klendathu

Minuet now has a balance, so some of this is quite out of date.

Ernam

Bards can also really easily lock on single limb breaks (off restoration apply), requiring very judicial use of restoration based on you afflictions (akin to heartseed) against a good bards, if you can't shield.  They also have quite a few blackout gimmicks which you have to be ready for, particularly since they can force tree and chain songs with bombs.

Bard is super fun, super powerful, but also pretty hard to use for the average player.  However any class with instant access to impatience, 2-3 affs per attack, and access to both illusions and forced commands is going to be one of the best classes in the game, in the hands of a good fighter.  Add in passive curing and harmonics for extreme danger.

Edit:  they also have super fast limb prep, and have arguably the easiest rift lock capability of any class.  And really high damage output.

Loalaine

Now if only I was good enough to make any of that practical.. 

Ernam

Loalaine said:

Now if only I was good enough to make any of that practical.. 

Well I love that there's a wide skill range available in Achaea, and if you're looking to make the jump from "easy" classes to the tough ones (serpent, bard, SnB, etc) I would recommend getting into the "middle" ones first, such as BM or dual cutting.  Aff classes are always going to be the high learning curve- high reward classes, but are also going to be the most complex and demanding.  Get comfortable with a class that lets you do both (dual cutting and BM, again), so you can master venoms and some locks while still having damage kills as an option if need be.  Blade master is particularly good since it is top 3 in damage, defense, affliction/locks, and has a super easy instakill, while having Evade
, Phoenix, health trans, Fitness, and alleviate to keep you alive.

Loalaine

I think I'm definitely willing to put the time and effort in to learn, currently making the changes to do so. Just gonna take some time I guess, thanks for the advice  

Gamoneterik

Reminds me of the feels of learning how to do all this the first time around... I deleted all my old scripts in teh absence. And now I'm building...

A SuperGamon.

Uber...Bard(rune)man.

Rebuilding scripts from base is... cool. Will take a lot of work though.

Ahmet

Gravedig ftw

Theodus

Anyone have advice on simple tactics to locks now? After coming across this thread it seems it's a bit out of date so any updated strategies would be greatly appreciated!

Tzond

Are you using a forged rapier or do you happen to have some level of Artie rapier? How you answer that will modify the answer to your question to some degree. (I am no means an amazing bard or super knowledgeable about it, but I can at least share what works for me.)

Theodus

ah, forgot to add that information. I'm using a level one rapier @Tzond.

Tzond

Theodus said:

ah, forgot to add that information. I'm using a level one rapier @Tzond.

I think you should be fast enough to pull off salve locking them, I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong. So basically you'll want to prep a limb, usually a leg, and then when you've got impatience and weariness/asthma (you might have to get both of these first with a lvl 1) then break the limb. After they apply restoration you sing qasida (anorexia) and then you've got a lock on them until they get salve balance back in which time you'll want to get slickness and weariness/asthma if they don't already have both on them to seal the lock, and if they do then paralysis to prevent tree, running, etc.

This is the best I can do as far as advice on locking other than just going for the locking affs straightforward using paralysis to keep them stuck. Also I'm by no means top tier so take this all with a grain of salt.

Kenway

Break leg with asthma while youve got impatience stuck, sing anorexia, jab slickness. Tada!

Kenway

Also if you can get balance and voice lined up, order apply resto + sing anorexia and then jab slickness sing par works instead of a break

Theodus

@kenway wouldn't you need asthma stuck prior to the force apply? It seems most people will prio asthma when they have impatience/asthma so they will keep curing asthma stoping the stack. Is there a way around this? More kelp affs and expert diagnoser?

Antonius

Most people will prioritise paralysis over both impatience and asthma, since they have to cure that to continue to attack (or to run away). Bard is fast enough to have them off herb balance from curing paralysis with impatience and asthma stuck when they recover balance, so if you have voicecraft lined up you're good to go.

Theodus

@antonius when you say lined up, do you mean only attacking when i have voice and balance so it hits similar to a knight's combination or some other means?