Knight and Parry - a bit of brainstorming

Wessux

Shecks said:

Runewardens (artied) are already one of the only classes I actually have to worry about dying to 1v1.

The only differences between artied and unartied runewardens are the fact they are much tankier, and they need less pre-damage on their disembowel. (This is assuming no soulpiercers.) As a serpent I have no idea why the tankyness would bother you and the predamage, depending on the runewardens ability to stack venoms, usually doesn't matter anyway.

Shecks

10,000 damage spikes, with engage, is a little intense.  If I didn't have the sceptre of aqueous mastery and evade, I don't know if I'd be able to survive an artied thurisaz/hugalaz/prefarar dsl combo.  I'd certainly have to run every single time it was initiated, at the very least.  By no means do I think that damage stacking is "OP", but it's an option that most classes don't have, that does tend to work a lot more often than it should.

Furthermore, I think too many people downplay limb setups from knights.  They are nowhere near as impotent as you'd like us to believe.  And the trick to beating parry isn't more abilities, it's paying attention to your opponents' parrying strategy, and countering it properly (instead of ignoring it and spamming your dsl alias).  As was already mentioned, there are easy counters to every setup, including static parrying.  If nothing else, be happy with the fact that it's just as hard to kill an artied knight as it is for knights to kill an artied opponent.

Wessux

Most of the knights here aren't saying we should have more abilities, hell most of us have stated we are good to go. It's just a little frustrating the time it takes to get around good parriers. Most knights who fight me now can't even set me up in the ten minutes we have in the arena.

And going into the thurisaz stack kill. Yeah, that can be rough, but its easy to just walk away from that. (shielding can stop it too) Anyone can do that without that artefact or the evade skill. But I'll tell you what's really hard to walk away from, backstab dstab delph combo. Talk about a great gank/kill combo for all those poor souls not always keeping metawake up at all hours of the day.

Now we aren't saying we need an auto ignore parry thing. It's pretty cool that we've come up with like 12-15 ways around parry depending on prios and skill. Just cutting the time of a prep down a little wouldn't go amiss. But again we could survive without it.

Oh, and killing an artied knight with most other classes setup is not hard. Unlike knight most of them are instakills, so we get the shaft on that too.

Final words, knights are neither underpowered or over powered. But we work really hard for those setups that are "easily" dodged.

Wessux

Wessux said:

But goiit's along with my hardest class to get around parry point, we also have the least rewarding kill skill. Where others can just insta kill them we give the opponent a straight chance to live.

Wessux said:

I mean, when a Monk or Blademaster can set me up literally 3-4 times in the time it takes me to get one we kinda have a problem. In lower tier combat that can be extremely frustrating for the knight and some what demoralizing. In high tier combat it's just bloody annoying, sure I get out of their setups a few times, but they can dodge yours just as easily. But I have no solution to that other hold proud the fact that you work harder than other classes to kill people.

naisar said:

On the the monk v. knight situation - it gets disgusting when the monk's skill level gets high enough.  The tumble-cancel setup has no counterplay because you can bbt/mind command, and the monk can numb through the disembowel and kai heal out.  So you're left with a situation where the monk can execute one of the strongest setups in the game three times before the knight gets a weak one.  This is more of an issue with monk being stupid than Knight, however- I think the Knight balance is actually pretty good overall.

Thank you for the echo.

Xith

I've never been a limb prep class. Staff strike was really fun until someone had a decent parry strategy and it took forever to get around it and prep a single limb. So having a partial bypass of some kind wouldn't be that bad. It just can't be a prone/entangle or anything that allows dsb too

Antonius

1v1 you shouldn't really ever get disembowelled without legs broken unless you use something with a horrendously long balance like tumble or arc.

That said enmesh is the dumbest shit ever, so let's have less rather than more of that.

Anedhel

Antonius said:

1v1 you shouldn't really ever get disembowelled without legs broken unless you use something with a horrendously long balance like tumble or arc. That said enmesh is the dumbest shit ever, so let's have less rather than more of that.

Ftfy.

Shecks

Seeing dragon lose enmesh might make me consider it a real class.  That and some attacks that aren't worthless.

Mishgul

Well I want to suggest things but I also want to wait for the weaponry rework.

Seftin

Mishgul said:

Well I want to suggest things but I also want to wait for the weaponry rework.

Carmain, we discussed this, they will not give you cat-apults - it's not Knightly. Nor will they give you Cat-anas. These are taken by Blademasters. And you can't have a puppy either.

Mishgul

Ryuke

Man, are any of you guys listening on the issue  with bypassing? Or just ignoring the fact that all bypasses are easily countered by moving parry, shield/rebounding/hindering in any other manner, while still saying that disembowel is an okay kill. Shitdicks  pay the fuck attention. I'd rather have to do dsb twice  like bbt instead of having to deal with he shitty momentum bypassing we currently have.

Eld

That's a lot of rage for an 8-month-old thread.

Exelethril

Ryuke

Eld said:

That's a lot of rage for an 8-month-old thread.

Not really rage. I'm a sailor and tone doesn't transfer through text. I was  just browsin  the forums at school between classes and went "do people read  the full posts or half a Sentence and decide to shit words from their fingers"? Just makes me a bit peeved when people read with their mouth instead  of their eyes.

Bukariin

Hey guys let's resurrect every thread in forum history where anybody said something dumb and get mad about it

Iuneos

Ryuke said:

Shitdicks  pay the fuck attention.

lrn2english

Ryuke

Iuneos said:

Ryuke said:

Shitdicks  pay the fuck attention.

lrn2english

I believe you mean, "Learn to speak the english language."

Kenway

I keep seeing new posts here hoping they'll be constructive topics. Stop disappointing me.

Seftin

WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU GIVING ME NOTIFICATIONS ON THIS THREAD OMG STOP IT LETS JUST LEARN TO FORGIVE AND FORGET

Aerek

Ryuke said:

Man, are any of you guys listening on the issue  with bypassing? Or just ignoring the fact that all bypasses are easily countered by moving parry, shield/rebounding/hindering in any other manner, while still saying that disembowel is an okay kill. Shitdicks  pay the fuck attention. I'd rather have to do dsb twice  like bbt instead of having to deal with he shitty momentum bypassing we currently have.

Some of us are listening, we're just resigned on the issue. I've tried to point out and provide evidence that as other classes have gotten tankier, faster, deadlier, with smaller margins of error, we've kept getting the "knights are fine" line and have been falling behind as a result. But the minds that matter appear to disagree, and I'm not one to keep repeating myself in hopes that I'll convince someone this time.

Perhaps knights are just balanced around level 3 gauntlets and 245-speed rapiers, so I'm not running what the game considers an "optimal setup", but mostly I think that we've fallen into the same position that Occultists used to be in before their complete rev-amp. If you didn't know how to cure Aeon, you thought Occultists were insane. If you did, they were toothless. In the same way, the folks who don't know how to avoid parry bypasses and who don't apply to torso think we're overpowered. Anyone who does those things can hold us off all day. I'll epteth lock someone who cures head > legs > arms and they'll think I'm some combat god, not realizing that one prio swap would leave me with a 10-minute slog through their Void/Para or para/clum spam trying to get a hit through parry.

Everyone knows the Knight rev-amp is coming, but expectations are running so high at this point that unless it comes with free puppies and handjobs for everyone, folks are going to be left disappointed, especially if the dual-cutting approach is left largely unchanged from what it is now. Even if the rev-amp does miraculously cure all our ills, there's no definite timetable on when it will arrive, and being a knight class right now (sans Infernal) is a lot of work for not a lot of reward, and my enjoyment for the class is starting to wither.

To be fair, we don't need much. My only gripes are that everyone else has a 1-touch "parry off" button, and that Disembowel requires torso damage to even be a threat, which is just a fool's errand if that's your only valid strategy. Fix those, and I don't even care what the fancy new options for knight turn out to be. I love the style of combat now, I'm just tired of watching limbs reset because it takes that long to prep good people, and watching those good people lock down on torso breaks because reverse limbcounters are a thing now.

It's hard for me to have class envy like I do, because back in 2012, I was telling every Runewarden to stop bitching. We were in great shape back then, we just haven't kept up in the arms race. These days, top-tier combatants don't play knights for a reason, and that reason is not because the class is too awesome and they all want us to have a fair chance at beating them.

Exelethril

Knights are still pretty viable against most people, mainly outside the arena. I think most top-tier combatants don't play knights because of boringness.

Atalkez

I know all the tricks (or most) to not getting prepped and still die to damage in Mir with 5k health. That doesn't take away the parry bypass issue though.

Cooper

You can parry on the ground, healthtrans, and have mir. No excuse to ever die to a dsb.

Atalkez

I said damage not dsb. I have more issue with thuri stacks than anything else. There are things to stop all that damage but it is tough to fight against regardless (still learning though).

Cooper

Leave the room.