Knight and Parry - a bit of brainstorming

Seftin

Hello everyone, yes It's your resident Achaean Class Changer.

So flavour of the week is Runewarden and it got me thinking about the whole prep to disembowel.

I understand that Runewarden is considered a burst class - stack some runes, throw some pref/curare and watch them die, likewise really for Paladin, because lets be honest - Damnation is pretty weak.

Infernal is the "technical" kill with vivisect, and now with frenzy, a load of other options that we wont go into.

This got me thinking about Disembowel and how it works, and after a few spars, speaking with Antonius and Anedhel and brainstorming, I came to the conclusion that it's a bit underwhelming.

Don't get me wrong, I've maxed out strength and can ensure a 1 shot kill on disembowel on most people with level 1 torso break, the problem comes way before then.

If someone static parries their left leg, and I need to break that for a disembowel, I then have to spend god knows how long doing one of a few options to get past this to prep it for the break. This can be either a series of venoms leading them to be paralysed, breaking the opposite leg with delphinium to prone them for a few hits to prep, breaking both arms etc.

The problem I have seen is that it takes far too long to bypass parry; unlike Monk (rhk) Sylvan (vinewreathe or whatever it's called) Blademaster (airfist) Druid (Something to with Hydra I think, not sure on this one) we have to spend the good part of our fight trying to prep one limb, which can take anywhere from a minute, up to and including 5 minutes. The issue is once you prep that limb - if it takes over 5 minutes, your target can switch parry to another limb, meaning you now have to re-prep that (right leg for instance) or alternatively, shell up halfway through your option to start breaking that limb, meaning you have to start over.

I'm not asking for their to be an identical way to bypass parry for Knight because, for some reason, people seem to think this will be "overpowered" when tumble stops disembowel 99.9% of the time, however I would like some ideas on either quicker ways to bypass parry, ideas on something a Knight could get (skillwise) to aid in this, perhaps 1 slash against the limb, the other intercepting their parrying body part etc.

Floors open, sorry if this makes no sense, I've just finished work and my brain isn't in gear.

I have put this into it's own thread as opposed to the "quick questions" purely because I think it's a rather broad topic, and could have multiple posts regarding it.

Please do not troll.

Cooper

You have access to faster dsls for paralysis bypass and nairat+enter for frozen and broken arms bypass.

I'd rather they increase weapon limb damage a little instead of giving Knights an easier way around parry.

Dunn

Message Mizik. Knight parry bypass is easier than you think.

(Especially runy)

Jovolo

Parry is an excellent hindrance in linr with methods of slowing down other prep times of Monk (avoidance/mounts/arm breaks and cripples). It would make more sense to reevaluate how much an effect weapon damage has on limb damage.

Parry isn't too much of a problem for knights in the first place - especially runewarden; further reducing that defense makes them ridiculously easy

Anedhel

Tbh, I'd rather have tumble getting you out of DSB pretty reliably (unless you get boned by a shiver in a runie's case, or a falcon balance strip around the time the first leg breaks and you can't tumble right away) looked at. A finisher so easily avoided is kind of underwhelming.

ETA: I recognize that for groups, knight's pretty up there, so buffing them up too much re: 1v1 is pretty silly.

Dorn

Given that, last I checked, Razeslash was generally considered a fairly weak/niche ability (I may be wrong on this, but I could swear I've been told by Knights that it's almost always better for them to raze then dsl rather than rsl), a 'beat-slash' or something similar could be interesting. Or even just a 'beat' as an ability - short balance, disables parrying for a short time. Say, 1s balance baseline, disables parrying for 2s? So you'd have to capitalize on it quickly, they might be able to react and hinder you to waste it, and you have to keep using it for every doubleslash you want to get past parrying, -but- it's fast enough that you could mix it in with attacks on other limbs and probably sneak a DSL or two in even if they're on the ball, and if they're not, they basically have no parry.

If you're not sure where their parrying is, you could also use it as a precaution before a break chain - it'd cost you an extra second, but it guarantees you don't lose 2+ seconds to a parried hit.

'Course, with weaponry changes on the way and Knights getting a class revamp, I doubt we'd see it anytime soon. Might have to wait and see what the new Knight third skill brings.

Anedhel

I might've missed it somewhere (I admit, I haven't paid much attention to stuff about it)- but is it confirmed knights are getting a third skill? Anyone know, vaguely, what it's going to bring to the table, at all?

Jovolo

They are, in place of Forging. No word on what that is yet.

Achilles

Bypassing parry isn't bad at all for a runie at all.  You can also bait with propped totem or barge into wunjo/nairat to get a few hits on the parried limb.  Maybe the damage with a broken torso should be looked at as a few perfectly timed thurisaz with hugalaz runes prior to break chain should be enough predamage to instant kill anyone (my suspicion is a super-artied out runed monk, serpent can tank this setup).

Otherwise the only change I would recommend is that the disembowel that comes with tumbling out of a room whilst impaled take into account for torso damage (it doesn't last I checked).

Kenway

Opinion/personal experience, not fact, not law:
[spoiler]
As you've said, disembowel is weirdly easy to avoid for being a kill skill and I think that most of a knights parry bypass options are similarly unreliable. The best paralysis method is a 50/50 chance every fourth hit. The -best- method of breaking both arms is easily avoidable through a few methods that I won't talk about because that's more of a learn it yourself type thing. Delph leg break only works if your target preps in very few hits or if you're so fast you could mana-lock them (unless they don't know how to avoid getting prepped this way then go for it). Web will sometimes keep them entangled long enough to get a hit off on the parried limb and lethal ink will make this a lot more reliable but this is similar to spamming epseth/epteth or epteth/epteth and waiting for nairat procs in that whoever you're fighting is going to get really pissed really fast. Ground runes can get you past but -generally- speaking, anyone you're fighting is either not going to fall for that or is going to learn after a single encounter with a wunjo/nairat or totem not to come chasing after a Runie without squinting first.
[/spoiler]

Long story short, Runie's absolutely devastating in groups or against less experienced fighters and can still be used effectively against pretty much anyone. The issue is reliability when getting through parry which is at worst 50/50 chance to do it without even touching their other limbs which is not something that most other classes can do. I'm not saying it's -great- how it is but I can see why no one's really eager to help us out so I'm satisfied to wait and see what comes with our third skill.

Arador

I have considered this for quite a while and I have to agree that parry bypass for Knights is lacklustre. I am not saying it is impossible but depending on your opponent it can be simple and quick or take ages to the point where the limb now resets.

If your opponent uses rebounding, most momentum based bypass methods are out the window and even break bypasses get hurt when that damned aura pops up.

Knight is the ONLY limb breaking class that does not have a mechanical bypass method and honestly the "it is possible" argument gets tiresome.

As to what the solution is, that is harder and limb damage scaling will have to be part of it but I really wish we can look at this instead of going OMG NO BUFF KNIGHT!

It is like telling a Monk to JPK whore a mounted opponent pre-RHK. Yeah it does kinda work and it is possible but that does not make it decent and against some opponents it is nigh impossible. A Monk can technically get past parry on a mounted opponent without RHK, blade masters can technically set up a person without air or void fist. That does not make those skills OP.

Infernal at least has other options with vivisect but the current bypasses available to the others suck.

Knights have the slowest prep when you consider parry, varied hits depending on person so you break a limb first to make sure, having weapons with very uneven damage can make a miss or a dodge screw you completely and if someone turtles a bit with rebounding and shield you can lose ALL your work now with limb resets and struggle for ages to get any momentum going needed to bypass their parry.

For me "possible" does not cut it for what is the Knight's primary kill method.

Hasar

I don't think barge into wunjo/nairat works very well.

Not sure on the balance cost for barge, but if the enemy is aura'd, then no chance of getting a full dsl on the limb before transfix wears off? Maybe a RSL.

And not sure on Barge fail chance, and how it's affected by mass or not.

Kenway

Hasar said:

I don't think barge into wunjo/nairat works very well.

Not sure on the balance cost for barge, but if the enemy is aura'd, then no chance of getting a full dsl on the limb before transfix wears off? Maybe a RSL.

And not sure on Barge fail chance, and how it's affected by mass or not.

Barge ignores mass. Balance on it would make it ineffective. Better to try and lure them by running but really doesn't work very often and when it does it's good for something like three hits on the parried limb.

Arador

Oh as a solution I considered letting RSL bypass parry of there is no shield, reflection, rebounding or speed. These all get razed first and once they are gone, the slash goes past rebounding.

To answer @Dorn, RSL was changed recently to respect weapon speed so it is not quite as useless as it was before.

Antonius

RSL was sped up, should still be totally independent of weapon speed.

Anedhel

If barge worked like it used to, and you could barge into the room you're barging out of, maybe, but necessarily, you have to go through two rooms to barge into the room you have runes down in.

I do get the argument for wunjo/nairat and totems, but it's also kind of boring to have to rely on someone taking a risk and jumping into your totem/runes, when so many people play so defensive.

ETA: Grammar hard.

Achilles

Anedhel said:

If barge worked like it used to, and you could barge into the room you're barging out of, maybe, but necessarily, you have to go through two rooms to barge into the room you have runes down in.

I do get the argument for wunjo/nairat and totems, but it's also kind of boring to have to rely on someone taking a risk and jumping into your totem/runes, when so many people play so defensive.

ETA: Grammar hard.

Was just throwing out some options that obviously Infernal and Paladin don't have.  

Anedhel

No, I do get it. Like I said, would be more better, is all

Arador

Antonius said:

RSL was sped up, should still be totally independent of weapon speed.

Ah, my mistake. Thought it was linked to weapon speed now.

Dorn

I remember hearing RSL had sped up, but I seem to recall still being told it was almost always better to raze->DSL. Though, my Knight sources might have been suspect, and I haven't played the class since I was an idiot teenager (as opposed to an idiot adult) who thought dual-wielding battleaxes as a Xoran pre-racial specialization for limb damage was a good idea.

Thoughts on the 'Beat' idea? That honestly seems like the simplest/fairest way to go about giving Knights a parry bypass - make them trade raw offense for it.

Jovolo

They don't need it. The way parry bypass is set up at the moment, is that you need to go on the offense and sacrifice defensive reliability for offensive momentum. That's how it should be. With a sure fire way to bypass parry all you do is encourage them to turtle prep even further - it doesn't matter that limb damage decays over 5 minutes, because you can't prevent any of your limbs being hit. 

It's honestly fine the way it is now. There are others things that need addressing, such as weapon damage and limb damage formula's, and we already have the weapon overhaul and third knight class skills coming out. Parry and knight bypassing it isn't one of those things.

Antonius

It's honestly not fine the way it is now. Fighting as a knight is fucking boring because it's all pissing about trying to bypass parry. Basically every other class who uses limb damage has a reliable way to bypass parry, a lot of them prep in far fewer hits, and the world hasn't come to an end. I'm willing to wait for the weaponry changes and divorce of trade skills, but if limb damage is still a major component of Knight combat (and I think it's fair to assume that it will be) something has to change about prep times, and I don't think it should be the number of hits it takes to break a limb.

Jovolo

Then that's a difference of opinion in the way we think a Knight should approach their finisher. Bit difficult to resolve that.

Anedhel

With the current incarnation of Chivalry's finisher, the only thing that'd change is that people'll end up tumbling a bit sooner. Honestly, a parry bypass isn't as big a deal as people seem to think it would be, all it'd do is open up the possibility of disemboweling someone sooner than every 3-4 minutes. Or, in runie's case, cause you a whole lot of hurt if you can't stand for nine seconds. But, a lot of classes cause you a whole lot of hurt if you can't stand in that long, and they -do- have a parry bypass. And, as Antonius pointed out, the world's still here

Nemutaur

Would be cool if Infernal stays vivi, Paladin gets better 'mana' finishers and Runies turn into the aff combat knight. But that's just me daydreaming.

Dorn

Honestly, there are two ways I see to look at this.

Primary question is, 'is Parry necessary?'

If it isn't, and I could see a case being made for it not being necessary given that everybody but Knights currently has a bypass of some kind, then the logical answer would be to simply do away with parrying entirely - adjust limb damage/general attack damage down slightly to account for no parrying absorbing the odd hit, and be done with it.

If it is, and I could just as easily see a case being made that it is (to add complexity and make prep work that little bit more difficult), then Knights should get a bypass that's on par with (but ideally not identical to) other classes' bypasses. This is where I'd propose Beat - it seems like an interesting new tool, with different connotations to Airfist, Vinewreathe, and Monks leading with RHK.

Now, none of this work should be done -before- the weaponry changes and tradeskill divorce, obviously. We need to see where Knights stand once they get their third skill, and how they work with new weaponry. But if they're in the same general position they currently are, then adding a way to trade straight damage/afflictions per second for parry bypass seems like a solid way to go about it.

However it was added, there'd have to be some tradeoff for it, I think. Something to make it something you don't want to just spam if you don't have to.

Seftin

So here is the main issue I see with parry bypass as it stands for Knight.

You spend so long prepping the limb that you lose the prep on other limbs, or if you prep that one first, they simply parry another limb.

You a leg to get a few hits on the parried limb, they switch parry.

You wait for Nairat procs, and achieve nothing as it's random and requires pretty much luck.

You spend so long prepping the only limb left, that you lose 5 minutes worth of time and all others reset.

You end up requiring to break torso - they static parry torso, you then now need 5 limbs to finish them - which is fine, however it's substantially more difficult than any other prep class, for a finisher which isn't an instakill (blademaster) or pretty much guaranteed kill with easy follow up (Monk due to not standing as opposed to writhing free to avoid death).

You finally DO get them prepped - they tumble, negating all chance of a disembowel.

That's just my two cents, argue as you wish about it, my oppinion is something needs to become less chance/luck/difficult to prep for the main finisher of a Knight.

Also @jovolo - yes you need to go on the offense for it, but it can be 100% negated by touch shield after 3 dsl's (which if they are a monk isn't as big a problem as if they are a momentum class) and if they are a momentum class, they normally have something like syphon/passive curing/active curing that alleviates the need to worry so much (see serpent shrugging) and can in some instances, make it almost impossible to pull off.

Seftin

Dunn said:

Message Mizik. Knight parry bypass is easier than you think.

(Especially runy)

When I spoke to Mizik (briefly) he said just go for straight up damage with thurisaz/hugalaz and curare/pref with damage rapiers. Though that was very brief.

Anedhel

I guess what I don't really understand is where this idea of knights having a parry bypass is the worst thing that could ever happen. I get it if you feel like it isn't necessary, but I get the impression people who oppose it have some horrible scenario in mind? I just don't think knights having a parry bypass would do anything but speed up fights, which is the way we want achaea to move, generally, isn't it?

Mishgul

This reminds me of a fight I had versus Roroan earlier (6k health, 70 wpn damage rapiers on my part). Took me a good 20-25 minutes to set -three- limbs up so I could disembowel him. If I was fighting myself I would not have died. I had to break both arms to bypass a leg parry, and his other leg would reset due to the sheer amount of dsls required to break his arms continuously for two dsls on his leg. Eventually I got a nice run with no rebounding to account for and killed him (if he had used rebounding properly it would never have happened.

I proceeded to log off and play a hack and slash for 5 days and counting to make myself feel better.

Mishgul

oh i also went shopping and happened to meet Seftin in a supermarket.