Knight and Parry - a bit of brainstorming

Seftin

Mishgul said:

oh i also went shopping and happened to meet Seftin in a supermarket.

It was MAGICAL

Anedhel

I want to meet Seftin in a supermarket

Mishgul

he was buying a pan, and cutlery. He said he was going to cook something but I think he was planning a raid.

Valden

At least I know that I'm not the only one having a hard time with this, and that it's not just combat newbies having a problem.
Everyone seems to have their own views on the parry bypass and how to pull it off, I learn a bunch of them only to be told that "Yeah it probably won't work in a real 1v1 unless you get lucky", followed by 5 variations of the bypass based on the situation and how they cure. To be able to reliably bypass parry feels inhumanly complex to me.

Understanding venoms and cures is critical to playing a knight class but I feel that having to deal with every minor variation of someone's cure setup and alter your technique on the fly shouldn't be necessary for low-tier combat. It has certainly discouraged me from getting into combat and even caused me to go dormant in the past, the pressure to be good at combat (Even when I was in Hashan) combined with the assertion that Runie is OP, has repeatedly made me feel like I'm further behind everyone else than I really am.

This is my view on how just the parry bypass complexity has affected me trying to get into combat.

Exelethril

Hint : Don't fight people with RoFs outdoors.

Actually, if you use Wunjo/Nairat and enemy when you start your arm breaks, it isn't half bad.

Cooper

Bypassing parry isn't the root problem. There are plenty of ways to bypass parry as a Runewarden that are much easier than 'break two arms, get a few dsls in'. It's the limb damage you do after that is the problem. An average of roughly 6 or 7 dsls per limb is pretty excessive.

The tumble change was intended to help with disembowel, if it isn't enough to break 3 limbs and have a guaranteed disembowel than I'd suggest you classlead changes to that next round because that's a big issue.

Xith

Actually have a question about Paladin and what their actual combat goal is. Don't actually know what damnation does.

Infernal obviously centers around Vivi apart from their other knight possibilities.

Runewarden is structurally boring though. Just damage stack and stuff. Despite runeblades being neat, they don't really count as a Rune-based kill. In the runewarden changes/additions, having something unique that only they can kill with would be cool, so they aren't just "Knight". Being able to barge into runes/totems has potential, but with the floor limit you can't use that to chain damage or anything.

For a moment I thought maybe giving them a conditional death rune or something that would almost mimic Shaman flavour, given that it's runie's priest class. The mystic/spiritual side of Runewarden isn't emphasized as much as in Paladin/Infernal. It's a useful class but there's a flavour hiccup.

On topic: Don't know what the balance is on barge but if you can shove someone into a Nairat and recover I think that's your answer.

Trey

Nemutaur said:

Would be cool if Infernal stays vivi, Paladin gets better 'mana' finishers and Runies turn into the aff combat knight. But that's just me daydreaming.

Except that with their respective abilities, Infernal really fits the affliction style better. (see also: Infestation)

Anedhel

@Cooper: Everything I've heard on the subject of tumble and Chivalry is that admins are fine with the way it currently works, so I don't think that's getting changed anytime soon. I classleaded a few things to make tumbling off impale more punishing (or, at least, respect torso damage, in one case), but I think the answer, verbatim, was 'we're happy with the way it is now'. Which is fair enough, a lot of people fail to tumble when they should, and they'll die to that, and that's not all that bad as a rationale, tbh, if prep didn't take so long (I see this a bit as I see axekick hurting like a bitch. With proper defence, you -can- avoid getting smacked a lot of the time if you're careful, and people should know how to keep themselves from getting owned).

I'm also okay with Runewarden not having a fancy class-specific kill, reflecting that they're not as great a dueling class as the other knight classes. Totems and runes (specially stone walls) are a big enough asset that they actually make it worth it even over the other knight classes, with their significant group combat abilities (mainly gravehands/piety, but other stuff, too- though maybe nothing beats soulspears, those are crazy awesome). Damage doesn't need to be boring, as a kill method. Definitely concur that the current limb damage associated with Chivalry (responsible for prep taking long, as a lot of people have pointed out) is way lackluster and, to be honest, whether it's a parry bypass or better limb damage, whatever makes prep shorter, would make me a happy camper. Don't care where it comes from.

Nim

I wonder if the reason limb damage is lacking is because every knight uses rapiers - or, more specifically, I wonder if heavier weapons do more limb damage per hit. Depending on how they rebalance weapons, it might become feasible to switch between affliction and damage weapons, if you're relying on afflictions to bypass parrying. It might already be feasible, though it'd certainly make a good set of weapons even more expensive for those who pursue that.

Arador

If tumble respected torso damage to the full extent then DSB becomes guaranteed the moment you get impaled with those broken legs or when you hit tumble. I agree that the tumble escape is a pain but maybe you get 50% of the torso damage there as skills still need some possible counter.

Anedhel

Sure. There has to be some happy middle ground, somewhere. If limb damage went up so that you could actually try more than once every 15-21 DSLs of prep, I'd be happy with impale/tumble's relationship staying the way it is. Good defence shouldn't be discouraged, and people're bound to slip up sometime. If they're perfect tumblers, then they deserve to force you to change up what you're doing.

Cooper

I think that every class should have a near guaranteed finisher if they properly setup their opponent. With how long it takes to set someone up, disembowel should be guaranteed, and should be a guaranteed kill if you pre-damage your opponent.

Jhui

tried to think of every reason to disagree with the OP, but i think RSL bypassing parry (after rebound has been stripped, but before speed is stripped) is a good solution.

Knight is in a good spot at the moment, but don't see how RSL would make anything OP.

I still want raze and flay to smack shield/rebounding at the same time, too.

Cooper

I 100% agree that Knight prep should be faster, but I don't like the more unintelligent ways of bypassing parry that classes have (airfist, vinewreathe, rhk, etc). I prefer the more intelligent ways of using your abilities in a fun way to bypass it.

I don't agree with the RSL change, unless it's also changed to be affected by weapon speed. Let's say my rapiers have 60 damage. All I have to do is find a battleaxe with 180 damage and every RSL will still be 1.5 rapier dsls of damage and you'll actually prep faster than using dsl.

Seftin

@cooper I'm very confused about all the ways you keep saying bypassing parry is fine. I have 241 speed and 88 damage rappers which takes 7 hits to prep some people per limb, that works out one way of doing it as 28 doubleslashes to prep using a parry bypass venom stack about 1 minute for one limb, not taking into account rebounding/shield/any variance in how they cure etc. compare that to unartied monk or sylvan which is about 1 minute to prep 4 limbs using either rhk or vinewreathe who also arguably have a more guaranteed way to finish their opponent with recent heart seed changes and just monk being monk. The problem isn't the time to prep using DSL it's the time to bypass parry on one limb that is the issue. 28 dsls for one limb using a technique that's avoidable and chancy is the same for me prepping a 5/6k health opponent on 4 limbs for disembowel. But feel free to pm me with these other tactics that less rely on chance, nreaking other limbs to destroy 1 etc because I am genuinely curious now as to what they are.

Wessux

Barge is stopped by mass unless changed. There are lots of parry bypass methods, which myself or Sir @Aerek could teach you in game. Knight does have the hardest time getting around parry compared to other classes, but since the shrugging change I haven't run into anyone I couldn't get around their parry at some point.

But going along with my hardest class to get around parry point, we also have the least rewarding kill skill. Where others can just insta kill them we give the opponent a straight chance to live. Now in my cases those chances are strictly saved for extremely artied out dragons. Predamage becomes the key at that point, and there are a couple of recommendation for that. Some say thurisaz stacks, but that will work exactly once on an opponent if they are one worth fighting, if it works at all. The one I recommend is just good venom stacking for damage, maybe a few untargetted attacks just to get a little more from each dsl.

I don't feel like putting up anything else so if you have questions just find me IG and I'll see what I can teach you.

P.S. I stopped reading halfway through the first page out of laziness, if I missed some important info or just echoed something someone else said just ignore me.

Wessux

Xith said:

Actually have a question about Paladin and what their actual combat goal is. Don't actually know what damnation does.

Infernal obviously centers around Vivi apart from their other knight possibilities.

Runewarden is structurally boring though. Just damage stack and stuff. Despite runeblades being neat, they don't really count as a Rune-based kill. In the runewarden changes/additions, having something unique that only they can kill with would be cool, so they aren't just "Knight". Being able to barge into runes/totems has potential, but with the floor limit you can't use that to chain damage or anything.

For a moment I thought maybe giving them a conditional death rune or something that would almost mimic Shaman flavour, given that it's runie's priest class. The mystic/spiritual side of Runewarden isn't emphasized as much as in Paladin/Infernal. It's a useful class but there's a flavour hiccup.

On topic: Don't know what the balance is on barge but if you can shove someone into a Nairat and recover I think that's your answer.

A smart Paladin doesn't bother with damnation against most classes. They go for a good old fashion DSB.

Only untalented Runewardens just damage stack kill people, and the class isn't really that boring either. (lot of math though)

I would love for our own instakill like damnation or vivisect, but it isn't necessary. Runewarden is in a good spot, setting up limbs can take forever especially when you deal with someone that really knows how to parry. I mean, when a Monk or Blademaster can set me up literally 3-4 times in the time it takes me to get one we kinda have a problem. In lower tier combat that can be extremely frustrating for the knight and some what demoralizing. In high tier combat it's just bloody annoying, sure I get out of their setups a few times, but they can dodge yours just as easily. But I have no solution to that other hold proud the fact that you work harder than other classes to kill people.

Kuy

Seftin said:

 I have 241 speed and 88 damage rappers

Damn.  Must you get all the bitches.

(Don't be offended, ladies; I'd never say anything to hurt you. You all scare me.)

Seftin

Rapiers stupid auto correct

Penwize

Wessux said:

Barge is stopped by mass unless changed.

This was changed a while back.  Barge is currently unaffected by mass.

Atalkez

Jhui said:

tried to think of every reason to disagree with the OP, but i think RSL bypassing parry (after rebound has been stripped, but before speed is stripped) is a good solution.

Knight is in a good spot at the moment, but don't see how RSL would make anything OP.

I still want raze and flay to smack shield/rebounding at the same time, too.

It is odd because Cantata for Bards kill rebounding and shield together yet razing doesn't.

Eld

Seftin said:

Rapiers stupid auto correct

At least it replaced the "i" with a second "p" instead of just removing it entirely (though that might be more apt).

Tesha

Wessux said:

A smart Paladin doesn't bother with damnation against most classes. They go for a good old fashion DSB.

Naisar

Wessux said:

Only untalented Runewardens just damage stack kill people,

Eh.  Considering that it takes so little time, I usually do it at the beginning of fights.  There's no reason to go through the effort of a dsb setup if I can smush them in twenty seconds.

On the the monk v. knight situation - it gets disgusting when the monk's skill level gets high enough.  The tumble-cancel setup has no counterplay because you can bbt/mind command, and the monk can numb through the disembowel and kai heal out.  So you're left with a situation where the monk can execute one of the strongest setups in the game three times before the knight gets a weak one.  This is more of an issue with monk being stupid than Knight, however- I think the Knight balance is actually pretty good overall.

Jacen

Just as an aside, bbt/mind command is dependent on the RNG of deafness coming back up after your wwk/prefarar delivery. 

Shecks

I was a little lazy and stopped reading halfway through this thread, but on the off chance that anyone cares about what I think:

Runewardens (artied) are already one of the only classes I actually have to worry about dying to 1v1. The other two are even stronger, but less frequent, but my point here is: knight is an easy class. A very, very easy class (having been all three). The trade off is that it's a tad harder to win super high tier fights. It is -definitely- still doable though, so please don't take the stance that knights are crippled as a class. I'd listen to about 6-8 other classes making this claim before I hear it from knights. I promise, after playing a bard, jester, druid, or even magi, you'd appreciate the fact that you at least have a -chance- a little more.

Shecks

@Seftin serpents are "immune" to limb setups because of shrugging just like classes with fitness are immune to venom locks. Since serpents die to limb setups everyday, and monk/knight/dragons die to vlocks just as often, I'm gonna call that argument either pointless, wrong, or both.

Seftin

@shecks I did not say serpents are immune to limb setups, I said that serpents have a way of avoiding one of the more readliy used parry-bypass tactics.

After playing every class bar alchemist, I would not say Knights are weak by any stretch of the imagination, though I would argue that of the classes that require a limb-prep to finish (if you disregard burst damage) then they are by far the longest to prep someone for a kill that is avoidable 100% of the time via tumble - now I am not saying tumble wont stop other tactics, just that it can negate the whole setup for Disembowel.

Jovolo

Tbf, if you have shatter, they're only screwing themselves over by using tumble. Facing a person who has 6,000+ hp and tumbles promptly on a leg break without shatter isn't ideal, but rock paper scissors combat etc, and that's only at low to mid level/tier.