Knight Duality for Novices

Rispok

With the somewhat recent changes made to elementalism to allow firelash at a much lower rank, would it be reasonable to place duality a bit lower in the chivalry tree, so novices can get it before becoming journeymen in their class? I could be mistaken, but I believe that you can't get duality until after you've become a journeyman.

Hyena for example, is 134 lessons into metamorphosis, which is halfway between adept and skilled. This is somewhere around where I was thinking duality might be.

Eld

Last I checked, Duality doesn't come till after Skilled. Much less of a problem with Journeyman being easier to get, as you can still reasonably slash your way to level 20. Don't see a problem with moving it down to less than skilled, though.

Arditi

Agreed: Novice Knight is second only to novice Serpent in terms of tedium.

Cooper

DSLing with shortswords as a newbie wouldn't be overpowered at all, but this has been denied multiple times in the past.

Trevize

DSL? Neah. Give them gauntlets and a skill that makes it like stonefist but better. Knightpunch ftw?

That said, I don't see why not. Newbie shortsword DSL sounds fine to me.

Sena

I agree. Newbie knight bashing is horrible, and will still be mediocre with DSL.

A new newbie bashing attack that uses a single shortsword might be better though. Less cost (even if shortswords are cheap), and allows the use of a shield, and can be balanced for newbies independently of DSL (better and more accurate than DSL for newbies, worse than DSL later on).

Cathy

Sena said:

I agree. Newbie knight bashing is horrible, and will still be mediocre with DSL.

A new newbie bashing attack that uses a single shortsword might be better though. Less cost (even if shortswords are cheap), and allows the use of a shield, and can be balanced for newbies independently of DSL (better and more accurate than DSL for newbies, worse than DSL later on).

Bashslash! Smack them away with the shield and slash them with the sword while they're dazed!

Jacen

Newbie bashing is something that should definitely -not- be tedious, though I don't necessarily think it should be super fast. Nothing more discouraging than grinding through 15 levels as a runie and someone telling you you need to get 65 more as a minimum for PVP.

Kafziel

Sena said:

I agree. Newbie knight bashing is horrible, and will still be mediocre with DSL.

A new newbie bashing attack that uses a single shortsword might be better though. Less cost (even if shortswords are cheap), and allows the use of a shield, and can be balanced for newbies independently of DSL (better and more accurate than DSL for newbies, worse than DSL later on).

Isn't this basically swordplay?

Sena

Kafziel said:

Isn't this basically swordplay?

Massively buffing swordplay could work, but as it is, it's only a 40% damage boost on an attack with horrible damage, and even with a good shortsword it still misses a lot.

Synbios

Agree with the idea. Novices already have it rough with having to work with incredibly slow shortswords AND a relatively low level of Chivalry/Weaponry. Just let them have their Duality at, say...Adept. 

Arditi

Kafziel said:

Sena said:

I agree. Newbie knight bashing is horrible, and will still be mediocre with DSL.

A new newbie bashing attack that uses a single shortsword might be better though. Less cost (even if shortswords are cheap), and allows the use of a shield, and can be balanced for newbies independently of DSL (better and more accurate than DSL for newbies, worse than DSL later on).

Isn't this basically swordplay?

Swordplay was a quick bandage fix. You're still looking at two hits on a pixie unless you managed to dig up a 90+ damage shortsword, and if you pulled a 90+ damage shortsword, odds are pretty good that you ended up with one with, like, 120 speed, so you're looking at at least five seconds of balance.

Faur

I LIKED being able to get a cup of coffee between slashes!

Antonius

I've brought this up in the past years ago and had it denied, I brought it up at least once (possibly twice) in the last round of Classleads and nothing happened. They should just scrap Swordplay and allow Duality to be learnt sooner, but I'm not holding out much hope that it will happen soon.

Arador

You kids and your swordplay. In my day we punched pixies and slept instead of sipping health and by Sartan, we liked it!

Riley

Infernal novices use swords? Decay decay

Trevize

Arador said:

You kids and your swordplay. In my day we punched pixies and slept instead of sipping health and by Sartan, we liked it!

Didn't even have headslam!

Arador

And had to walk to Lodi all the way in the snow without an automapper both ways!

Skye

Or a quest system with hints!

Fen

Arador said:

And had to walk to Lodi all the way in the snow without an automapper both ways!

And got locked in time while Romeo yelled at us to namechange. Not this "Please NAMECHANGE at your earliest convenience, thanks, have a great day" prompt!

Saavant

Ah the good old days. Decay decay .. meditate .. 1 minute later .. decay decay .. meditate .. 1 minute later .. decay decay

Infernal Knights had it going for them. Runie Knights had to kick or punch. I don't know about Pally Knights. I think they had to kick or punch too.

Trevize

Saavant said:

Ah the good old days. Decay decay .. meditate .. 1 minute later .. decay decay .. meditate .. 1 minute later .. decay decay

Infernal Knights had it going for them. Runie Knights had to kick or punch. I don't know about Pally Knights. I think they had to kick or punch too.

Bladefire had it right. Newbie sword with 355 to-hit. (I want to say 355? been way too long)

Avto

Infernal's didn't have decay, pre-autoclass chivalry/forging was primary skills of all 3 knight classes, and third skill was defining necro/runes/devo. So all 3 had to punch/kick, duality was at skilled so kicking/punching was done up to level 10, then there was a time for shortsword begging, ratting/butterfly catching and buying shortswords, and then grinding on...

I agree to duality at adept or thereabouts in chivalry.

Antonius

What are you on about? Before autoclass you got all three class skills the moment you picked your class, so novice Infernals definitely did have Decay if they spent the tiny amount of lessons required to get it.

Avto

Not while they were novices in guild. At novice there was only chivalry/forging up to fabled. Only after novice interview was one granted third class skill.

Sena

Pre-autoclass, novices could learn up to just before skilled, not fabled.

Avto

True

Saavant

I'd be for DSL at Adept or about too if I want to start up a newbie knight.

Added:

I remember that before autoclass came to Achaea, novice knights got all three class skillsets, but they had to reach GR3 or higher in order to keep their skills if they were to leave. Nowadays, novice knights got Chivalry and either Runelore/Necromancy/(Not sure what the Pally version is). Forging came after the class is fully embraced.

Arador

We had decay, the mana cost was just too high to really bah with it as a true newbie. Also back then we had to learn a ton of weaponry before we could hit anything.

Sena

I tried to find an official source (or at least a forum post) showing that pre-autoclass knights started out with chivalry and forging and only got necromancy/devotion/runelore after novicehood, but the best I could do was show that novices did start out with 2 skills, not 3. From here: "You will have access to two of the three skills special to that class. Upon promotion from your novicehood, you will gain the third special class-related skill and become an apprentice to the class."

I can say for certain that runewardens only got runelore after novicehood, but that was the only knight class I played pre-autoclass, so paladin/infernal might have already had forging as their third skill before autoclass.

Kyrra

Forging was after novicehood I think, because it was essentially useless to a novice.

I remember Runewarden novitiate orientations including the lessons spent but beyond chivalry, weaponry, and some survival, I just don't recall. I would have thought runelore though.