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Alchemist combat.

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  • HellenHellen Member Posts: 165 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Thanks for all the responses. I really like the ideas @Sena proposed, especially the first one. The second one seems good, but sadly, I think it would have the similar situation as Disrupt right now. It's a really good thought, though, and one will never know until it's tried! I just can't personally think of a situation those particular benefits would outweigh the negatives.
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Trevize said:
    Achimrst said:
    Tahquil said:

    Totally OP suggestion.

    Ether disrupt makes it more difficult for telepathic attacks in the set room. By difficult I mean it might have a half-second delay between the ordering of an act and the act itself or increased chance that mindlocks will fail. It has large re-occurring mana/willpower ticks. Huge costs to the alchemist and near impossible to have up for more than 8 minute stints unless you have alchemists tag-teaming it. Gives them a bit more raid utilty/defense utility since they should be a heavily cityteamwork class.

    Idk I don't see it that way and I am not sure if it would hinder allies to the Alchemist as well, Which I assume it does. Magi can flood a place and make it impossible for Shaman to use runes for los combat. In my view an Alchemist using disrupt is similar in that it would stop both allies and enemy monks from using telepathy to radiance everyone out of the city.
    Hm. Doesn't the shaman rune let you prevent that, if you get to it first, essentially? If it does go in, there should be a way for monks to get around it - but something that requires preparation beforehand, not something you can do after, maybe?
    Yeah, apparently the way to prevent room flooding is to draw a thurisaz rune on the ground in the room being flooded before it is flooded. The rune will stay for about 10 sec and you will have to draw another one. Not to mention the magi flooding probably has the room as a retardation trap. The way for a monk to stop an Alchemist from using disrupt is to mindlock it while it's casting and then force it to sit. from anywhere within the area.
    Trevize
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Another problem with disrupt is that it's hard to tell whether it actually did anything useful, since you can't see the enemy's channels. And even the side it's being used against should be unaware that it's working. Unless you happen to see logs from the other side of the fight and notice points where important communication is blocked (which is unlikely), or someone looks through the channel history and notices that important messages were blocked (which isn't an option for parties or most clans, which is where a lot of important communication will happen) and then informs the disrupt-using side that it made a difference, you usually have no way to know when disrupt was effective.

    I can't really see any solution to this. The ability is mostly only effective when the enemy doesn't know about it (which makes it harder to hear from the enemy that it worked), and there's no good way to monitor the enemy's communication, so even if disrupt does completely change the outcome of a fight it could still seem like a waste of time.
    Hellen
  • VayneVayne Rhode IslandMember Posts: 1,897 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Sena said:
    Another problem with disrupt is that it's hard to tell whether it actually did anything useful, since you can't see the enemy's channels. And even the side it's being used against should be unaware that it's working. Unless you happen to see logs from the other side of the fight and notice points where important communication is blocked (which is unlikely), or someone looks through the channel history and notices that important messages were blocked (which isn't an option for parties or most clans, which is where a lot of important communication will happen) and then informs the disrupt-using side that it made a difference, you usually have no way to know when disrupt was effective.

    I can't really see any solution to this. The ability is mostly only effective when the enemy doesn't know about it (which makes it harder to hear from the enemy that it worked), and there's no good way to monitor the enemy's communication, so even if disrupt does completely change the outcome of a fight it could still seem like a waste of time.
    Change it to @Tahquil's idea
    image
    Hellen
  • HellenHellen Member Posts: 165 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Sena said:
    Another problem with disrupt is that it's hard to tell whether it actually did anything useful, since you can't see the enemy's channels. And even the side it's being used against should be unaware that it's working. Unless you happen to see logs from the other side of the fight and notice points where important communication is blocked (which is unlikely), or someone looks through the channel history and notices that important messages were blocked (which isn't an option for parties or most clans, which is where a lot of important communication will happen) and then informs the disrupt-using side that it made a difference, you usually have no way to know when disrupt was effective.

    I can't really see any solution to this. The ability is mostly only effective when the enemy doesn't know about it (which makes it harder to hear from the enemy that it worked), and there's no good way to monitor the enemy's communication, so even if disrupt does completely change the outcome of a fight it could still seem like a waste of time.
    An extremely good point. I'd really hate to say "Just scrap it", because it's a unique idea, and as I said before, I like the concepts it brings up. I really can't think up anything else either.
    Achimrst
  • HellenHellen Member Posts: 165 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited January 2014
    A small question. I was with a group that went to defile an Auroran shrine. It somehow went off without a hitch, with absolutely no combat happening whatsoever. I am aware that there were Ashtani forces not in the party that were nearby as well, but from what I was told, they didn't see any combat either.

    I had wondered why Targossas did not come to defend. In reality, it's most likely that they were busy somewhere else, but a possibility came up.

    I used Disrupt before we started, to try and cause a bit of confusion before I thought Targossas would rush us. Does Disrupt stop the shrine responses on the Order channel? I have no reliable way to check this, and I didn't think to note the time we were defiling at. Does anyone know if that's a thing Disrupt is capable of?

    Edit: I accidentally a sentence.
    Post edited by Hellen on
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,479 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2014
    Wait no was suppose to be here , sorry post. May have been no Aurorans to see the defilement on Zorder channels to tell the city to defend.
    Post edited by Tahquil on
  • HellenHellen Member Posts: 165 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited January 2014
    Tahquil said:
    There's a chance there was no Aurorans on, or they were AFK makning it so noone seeing the Order channel to report it to the city.
    They were on. They were definitely on. But yeah, I don't think it's really likely that Disrupt could do so, but it's a possibility that could explain why they were strangely absent that time, and one that just makes me seriously question why they didn't rush in and slaughter our group. It could have been that they were grouping up and preparing for the guard raid thing, though. That's a possibility.

    Edit: Missed the AFK thing. I guess it's possible all of them were AFK, looked at our group and thought "Nope, can't take that on alone". Just that now I've become really curious as to whether or not blocking shrine messages is a property of Disrupt.
  • MaraxMarax The ScriptoriumMember Posts: 141 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Does Targossas harbor Alchemists? Even if it doesn't, then if Clerics were given a skill akin to this, then I think it would be an incredibly relevant skill to have in defiling groups.

    I'd understand if the Divine power overrode the alchemical power of the skill, but it would definitely spark more defilements, sparking more hunting, sparking more Order work, sparking more raiding.

    tl;dr: disrupt, as a skill that blocks shrine defile messages, is hawt. Bring on the conflict, bros (and hos? I don't what word to use as a(n acceptable) counterpart to "bro"...)
    (<clan>): Kuy says, "Gurl, I could talk myself outta Alkatraz."
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Marax said:
    Does Targossas harbor Alchemists? Even if it doesn't, then if Clerics were given a skill akin to this, then I think it would be an incredibly relevant skill to have in defiling groups. I'd understand if the Divine power overrode the alchemical power of the skill, but it would definitely spark more defilements, sparking more hunting, sparking more Order work, sparking more raiding. tl;dr: disrupt, as a skill that blocks shrine defile messages, is hawt. Bring on the conflict, bros (and hos? I don't what word to use as a(n acceptable) counterpart to "bro"...)
    Harbor Alchemists? Are they evil?

    Anyway yeah Targ has Alchemists.
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,479 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    God no, don't want any skills that promotes more .. I would say shrine conflict, but this really does the reverse of promoting conflict. It'll get whined about and nerf like one-shotting shrines with dragon bodies use to.
    Hellen
  • HellenHellen Member Posts: 165 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    God no, it's why I asked if that was a thing. It really shouldn't do that, at all. Shrines are not a great avenue of conflict. :(
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Alchies need love, but also just need people who will make the kind of auto-offense that really showcases their 4 balances.

    Also food for thought, they have relatively few skills, and I believe will lose Transmutations when trade skills are separated from classes. So come up with some nice skill ideas to supplement Phys and Alch, people. Anything that doesn't have its own balance. :P
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
    Achimrst
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,373 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It'll be interesting to see what happens to transmutation, since it is not completely divorced from the alchemy skillset. Though I suppose the offending particulars in there could just simply be removed as well

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • TrevizeTrevize Member Posts: 1,517 @ - Epic Achaean
    Xith said:
    Alchies need love, but also just need people who will make the kind of auto-offense that really showcases their 4 balances.

    Also food for thought, they have relatively few skills, and I believe will lose Transmutations when trade skills are separated from classes. So come up with some nice skill ideas to supplement Phys and Alch, people. Anything that doesn't have its own balance. :P
    I'll take tarot, please.

    :(

    Just universe?

    Please?
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  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Maybe they could separate homunculi and physiology somehow. Give the homuncs more to do.
    Or more to do with Ether or the philosopher's stone.
    Ether disrupt and other room shifting abilities would be compelling.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
    VastusAchimrstDomanic
  • ZiiZii Member Posts: 616 @ - Epic Achaean
    nerf inundate sanguine

    its my ace, my go-to guy, its my guaranteed, "You have been slain by the soul of Zii."
    *Animated Signature*

    AchimrstTrevizeXith
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Zii said:
    nerf inundate sanguine

    its my ace, my go-to guy, its my guaranteed, "You have been slain by the soul of Zii."
    A kill is a kill :P
    Trevize
  • ZiiZii Member Posts: 616 @ - Epic Achaean
    Achimrst said:
    Zii said:
    nerf inundate sanguine

    its my ace, my go-to guy, its my guaranteed, "You have been slain by the soul of Zii."
    A kill is a kill :P
    They kill you, you transfuse back home.  They RUN because they're bleeding and vitrified.  Lost xp returned.
    *Animated Signature*

    Achimrst
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    They overcorrected alchemist bleed because everyone complained that they couldn't get kills.

    Here's ol' jester Xith spamming Priestess like the world is ending, because I'm bleeding for 1750 health at a time out of room and corrupt somehow broke Svo and made it stop clotting completely.

    On my alch alt in the beginning I was doing fine. Granted nobody understood it but I was able to lock, reave, aurify and so on. Bleed change wasn't needed as much as the fluid fixes. Which they did, but un-buff bleed.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • AduanAduan Member Posts: 40 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    edited January 2014
    Did you test the bleeding on someone to see how much one inundate does in bleeding? Because the base itself isn't that high.

    The problem stems from the sanguine humours passive effect. If the homunculus has you bleeding and then someone inundates you, the multiplication (not stacking, multiplication of at least 2) will go fast, your mana will go down, but it is survivable. At itself, those two together are what cause the bleeding quite efficiently. On top of that comes the sanguine humours passive effect.

    Even if you lower inundate, the outcome will remain the same, it will just take 5 seconds longer till you run out of mana. The bleeding will keep stacking after your mana runs out, (sanguine humour here). And the bleeding spirals out of control.

    If they change the way the sanguine humour works, the bleeding cannot run out of control this badly. (just give someone the sanguine humour and have a shaman vodun bleed the victim, you'll quickly notice how different it is from a vanilla vodun bleed).

    So basically change the humours effects, more efficient and probably smarter. People will lose mana, but they can clot and survive a lot longer.
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2014
    @Aduan
    Has inundate sanguine been massively changed recently? I'm not sure what multiplication/doubling your post is referring to. Unless it was changed, inundate sanguine simply adds 350 bleeding, and a hit from a salt homunculus adds 100 bleeding (65 for administered). The only multiplication I know of is in the tempered sanguine passive effect.

    Edit: Searched announce posts to be sure, if inundate sanguine was changed to have a multiplicative effect, it wasn't announced. Or it was bugged for quite a while, and fixed without any announcement.
  • AduanAduan Member Posts: 40 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    edited January 2014
    Well not much. Bleeding without a tattoo keeps increasingly slightly per bleeding tick.

    Adding to that:

    * Clotting costs will now be increased when under the effect of a 
    tempered sanguine humour. 

    Even with it adding just 10 extra mana, that's for 5 clotting (which equals about 200 bleeding), 50 extra mana. The sanguine makes mana drop too quickly, to maintain clotting. 
    Against a shaman with vodun bleed, pre-clotting 20 times is doable and helps you survive. Against an alchemist only running is an option, as your mana won't last.

    As soon as you cannot clot anymore, the bleeding takes on stupidly huge amounts. This always was the case, and thanks to sanguine, now a reality that happens (too) often.

  • TrevizeTrevize Member Posts: 1,517 @ - Epic Achaean
    They're right, Inundate adds 350 bleeding. Period.

    It's primarily the sanguine humour.
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  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2014
    With 4k mana, assuming constant mana sipping and moss (no sip bonuses or mana regen) against an opponent doing nothing but inundating sanguine with a salt homunculus, you can keep your bleeding at 0 (clot down to 0 on every inundate and homunculus hit) for about 16 seconds before you run out of mana. Because you don't die at that point, the bleeding just starts to build up, that should give enough time for your fluids to return to normal if you're constantly eating ginger, since the alchemist isn't tempering (can either inundate or temper, not both).

    And that's just 4k mana. With artefacts or high enough mana, you can actually gain mana faster than you spend it, no matter how much you're clotting.

    This is very simplified, and ignores other attacks/hindering on both sides, but it does show that the bleeding can be manageable on its own, without corruption (I'm not sure what the best way to deal with corruption is, or how much of a difference it actually makes), as long as you aren't also forced to use focus or prioritise health over mana.
  • TrevizeTrevize Member Posts: 1,517 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited January 2014
    Corruption -properly managed- isn't as useful against a lot of people, as many sip more health than mana. That said, most of those people don't handle it properly. I'm still learning, granted, but the best use of it I've found is to throw someone off, or to mess with people who have (and thus sip) more mana than health.
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  • HellenHellen Member Posts: 165 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Daeir said:
    I always thought corruption was like the "last step" towards aurify, bringing bleeding into mana while educe-wracking to make it happen.
    Kind of? A smart player will see what just happened and cut their clotting down. Can't die from lack of mana, after all. Of course, when Corruption wears off, it'll roll over, but hey, you'll have avoided the sudden burst of damage caused by clotting! There's ways to mitigate it, but yeah, it's not the end-all, be-all of Aurify. Regular bleeding is a lot more threatening for Aurify, because you -can- die from bleeding out, and therefore, it's more justifiable to spend mana for clotting in the hopes that you'll get away before the alchemist in question aurifies. Really, it's used more as something to get a temporary advantage in the hopes of knocking them down.
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If you don't clot against corruption the exact thing that will happen is your mana being eaten away by the ridiculous constant increase in bleed? Then when it wears off, you have next to no mana and you're bleeding for 2,000+ because you didn't clot for 30 seconds. That's a good way to get yourself aurified.

    Even if you do clot while corrupted, all you do is bring your health down to the point where you have to spam clot to not die and suddenly you have no health from clotting while corrupted and you have to eat straight into a massive chunk of your mana to survive the corruption wear off. A good way to aurify.
    Hellen
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