wat is a Hashan?

Trevize

Nim said:

I dunno that much about Hashan, but even though they might be healthier in some way, all the philosophically united cities are kind of weird and inhuman in a way, so Hashan feels a little more normal in that way, from what little I know about it!

Which isn't much, since Nim is convinced it's the city of harlots, whores, and murderers. >_>

It isn't? Well that's disappointing.

Eld

Trevize said:

Nim said:

I dunno that much about Hashan, but even though they might be healthier in some way, all the philosophically united cities are kind of weird and inhuman in a way, so Hashan feels a little more normal in that way, from what little I know about it!

Which isn't much, since Nim is convinced it's the city of harlots, whores, and murderers. >_>

It isn't? Well that's disappointing.

We've also got some liars, cheats, and thieves.

Seldin

Eld said:

Nim said:

I dunno that much about Hashan, but even though they might be healthier in some way, all the philosophically united cities are kind of weird and inhuman in a way, so Hashan feels a little more normal in that way, from what little I know about it!

Which isn't much, since Nim is convinced it's the city of harlots, whores, and murderers. >_>

It isn't? Well that's disappointing.

We've also got some liars, cheats, and thieves Serpentlords.

FTFY

Asmodron

^ made me lol so hard. hahahaha

Asmodron

Once upon time when I was Regent (and admittedly went a little crazed with power) I organized a council meeting where we finally discussed to put into action a much more concrete image of Hashan in both physical and political status. We discussed theme ideas, general architecture, legal system  concerning it, and so forth and we finally came down to the agreement that it remain Night and that the city be pushed more towards a refocusing to make this more apparent. Im sad to say that, as is sadly common with action in Hashan, nothing came about it. It's a shame too, the idea of remolding Hashan to further exude the idea of the Night would have really helped it out imo.

Mishgul

I made a hashan alt a few weeks ago. The SL novice level interaction was unpleasant forcefeed of large amounts of info that was largely irrelevant combined with incorrect information. After that i largely got ignored.

There are some cool ideas and people in hashan with plent of carries like vayne(lol!).

However there are no supports

Alcinae

Generally, I think my experience as a Hashani was positive. SW provided a large venue for RP to come about with rituals whatnot, and I made a few friends in the Lotus/Merchants/SL. Although I didn't truly pursue much with the city, many of its citizens were pretty friendly. Sure, the city at times bickered quite a lot, but I can say that I had a decent experience for the duration I've been there.

Definitely a lot of cool ideas and culture floating around, which I was lucky enough to be some part of. I feel as though if all three Divine in the Triad or more members of their Orders were present, perhaps there would be a bit more solid background and discussion on what the Night is, and hopefully set things straight once and for all. The primary religious Order there are probably still the Ouranians, and while I do appreciate how much @Ourania and Her Order has done to help Hashan, I regret not being around enough to see as much activity, discussion, and representation from those of Twilight's and Valnurana's Orders besides a few who were really amazing (no offense, I more than likely didn't pay enough attention).

I do agree that a lot of their ethos are based around Knowledge, and probably what I'd say is self-actualization and discovery (which can be somewhat sketchy - don't all people want to fulfill their potential as best as the can?), but that makes it, in my opinion, at least a little more normal and peaceful than other cities (once again, no offense). But maybe its best that it should be that way, at least for now.

Kaitali

Mishgul said:

I made a hashan alt a few weeks ago. The SL novice level interaction was unpleasant forcefeed of large amounts of info that was largely irrelevant combined with incorrect information. After that i largely got ignored.

This is sad but pretty much sums up the SL, currently.

Trevize

Seldin said:

Eld said:

Nim said:

I dunno that much about Hashan, but even though they might be healthier in some way, all the philosophically united cities are kind of weird and inhuman in a way, so Hashan feels a little more normal in that way, from what little I know about it!

Which isn't much, since Nim is convinced it's the city of harlots, whores, and murderers. >_>

It isn't? Well that's disappointing.

We've also got some liars, cheats, and thieves Serpentlords.

FTFY

I don't see the change?

Herenicus

Hopefully the old-player rehabilitation program is in full swing!

Trevize

Herenicus said:

Hopefully the old-player rehabilitation program is in full swing!

You have no idea how shocked I was to see you at crossroads earlier.

Fen

Seldin said:

Eld said:

Nim said:

I dunno that much about Hashan, but even though they might be healthier in some way, all the philosophically united cities are kind of weird and inhuman in a way, so Hashan feels a little more normal in that way, from what little I know about it!

Which isn't much, since Nim is convinced it's the city of harlots, whores, and murderers. >_>

It isn't? Well that's disappointing.

We've also got some liars, cheats, and thieves Serpentlords.

FTFY

Trevize

Fen said:

Seldin said:

Eld said:

Nim said:

I dunno that much about Hashan, but even though they might be healthier in some way, all the philosophically united cities are kind of weird and inhuman in a way, so Hashan feels a little more normal in that way, from what little I know about it!

Which isn't much, since Nim is convinced it's the city of harlots, whores, and murderers. >_>

It isn't? Well that's disappointing.

We've also got some liars, cheats, and thieves Serpentlords.

FTFY

What do the Wardens have to do with anything?

Karai

Keneanung said:

Gamoneterik said:

Guys, the Night is The Triad of Twilight, Ourania and Valnurana and the three realms they encompass of Darkness, The Moon, and Sleep and Dreams, which represent Knowledge, Understanding and Possibilities. Period!!!1!!!11eleven!

This is by far te most clear and straight answer I have ever gotten. Could you repeat that in game as well? Maybe that'd stop the constant discussions.

I believe most people do not know this and nobody gives them a straigt answer, so they try to make something up on their own.

It's a clear and accurate answer but it doesn't really give Hashan a clear purpose - a banner to rally behind or to fight for. Conflict is all well and good, that's something we need to work on even though it seems almost by design that we are the ones who lack the arties, and the actual combatants. The problem is that when you explain Darkness, then you have to go in depth about it, wheras with Evil you know the Truths, you know your God, you know your purpose, what is expected of you and the entire city is directed by that cause. There is no ambiguity, Hashan has that in spades. I think that not only does Hashan have to set itself apart from the other cities in a significant way, but it has to be an affront to those other cities in some way as well. But we're no threat atm so that's not even possible. And, of course, since New Thera has the library and all, our role as the collectors of knowledge is just so unnecessary without a distinction.

Eld

And here I didn't think we had any necromancers left

Trey

I've had two concepts bouncing around in my mind for quite a while, really the same but different facets. However, with as entrenched as Hashan is in IC lore and player-wise it's unfeasible and doesn't fit. I think the concept is an interesting one, though.

1. Hashan casts aside the three Divine it has currently, adopts Thoth and becomes a grand necropolis. New architecture, darker tones, new guards etc.

2. Cyrene is Neutral-Diplomat. Hashan becomes Neutral-Mercenary, a nation state of soldiers fighting for the current highest bidder, flooding the soulrealm with tasty souls for Thoth.

Again, inappropriate for Hashan now, but still.

Trevize

Trey said:

I've had two concepts bouncing around in my mind for quite a while, really the same but different facets. However, with as entrenched as Hashan is in IC lore and player-wise it's unfeasible and doesn't fit. I think the concept is an interesting one, though. 1. Hashan casts aside the three Divine it has currently, adopts Thoth and becomes a grand necropolis. New architecture, darker tones, new guards etc. 2. Cyrene is Neutral-Diplomat. Hashan becomes Neutral-Mercenary, a nation state of soldiers fighting for the current highest bidder, flooding the soulrealm with tasty souls for Thoth. Again, inappropriate for Hashan now, but still.

Psh. Merchants should adopt Thoth as their patron and become a mercenary House.

Vayne

Trey said:

I've had two concepts bouncing around in my mind for quite a while, really the same but different facets. However, with as entrenched as Hashan is in IC lore and player-wise it's unfeasible and doesn't fit. I think the concept is an interesting one, though. 1. Hashan casts aside the three Divine it has currently, adopts Thoth and becomes a grand necropolis. New architecture, darker tones, new guards etc. 2. Cyrene is Neutral-Diplomat. Hashan becomes Neutral-Mercenary, a nation state of soldiers fighting for the current highest bidder, flooding the soulrealm with tasty souls for Thoth. Again, inappropriate for Hashan now, but still.

The first idea has merit, but despite there being a notable population of his order members still in the city,Thoth kinda threw away Hashan in a tiff last time Twilight returned. The second made me giggle a little.

Trey

Vayne said:

Trey said:

I've had two concepts bouncing around in my mind for quite a while, really the same but different facets. However, with as entrenched as Hashan is in IC lore and player-wise it's unfeasible and doesn't fit. I think the concept is an interesting one, though. 1. Hashan casts aside the three Divine it has currently, adopts Thoth and becomes a grand necropolis. New architecture, darker tones, new guards etc. 2. Cyrene is Neutral-Diplomat. Hashan becomes Neutral-Mercenary, a nation state of soldiers fighting for the current highest bidder, flooding the soulrealm with tasty souls for Thoth. Again, inappropriate for Hashan now, but still.

The first idea has merit, but despite there being a notable population of his order members still in the city,Thoth kinda threw away Hashan in a tiff last time Twilight returned. The second made me giggle a little.

Again, I like the idea in principle, but applying it to Hashan in its current form would be a trainwreck. Can you imagine though? A Hashan that is the combat powerhouse of Achaea.  Someone get Vayne a towel because I just BLEW HIS MIND.

Unrelated, beer is great.

Eld

Trey said:

Beer is great.

Agreed.

Asmodron

Trey said:

I've had two concepts bouncing around in my mind for quite a while, really the same but different facets. However, with as entrenched as Hashan is in IC lore and player-wise it's unfeasible and doesn't fit. I think the concept is an interesting one, though. 1. Hashan casts aside the three Divine it has currently, adopts Thoth and becomes a grand necropolis. New architecture, darker tones, new guards etc. 2. Cyrene is Neutral-Diplomat. Hashan becomes Neutral-Mercenary, a nation state of soldiers fighting for the current highest bidder, flooding the soulrealm with tasty souls for Thoth. Again, inappropriate for Hashan now, but still.

What's with the Thoth devotion? Devotion isnt a problem in Hashan, it has that in spades. Also whenever Hashan's theme has attempted to be changed (including by divine hand), it is always met with upset and cries. Admittedly Thoth went about his 'discreet' change of Hashan in an entirely wrong avenue that just looked like someone's own personal avenue to power (especially when he got into a tiff about Twilight returning).

No, I think the general theme is already good, it just needs some refocusing. Also you have to remember, Achaea is the combat-mud, and combat is generally all people have on their minds. The mechanics themselves in Achaea are all focused towards PvP. Thus, there really isnt any chance (or real mechanics) for Hashan to take a different path, such as its one of secret knowledge and wisdom. Shame really, would have been pretty nice.

Herenicus

Maybe I am losing sight of the forest, but I think that if we take good care of our trees we're going to see a narrative develop that will surprise us all.

Arador

Vayne said:

A lot of people seem to not know much about Hashan but what they see from a distance and hear from others, I would encourage those people especially to give it a shot and see for themselves.

I did. It still burns when I pee and I never saw my horse again.

Nellaundra

Asmodron said:

No, I think the general theme is already good, it just needs some refocusing. Also you have to remember, Achaea is the combat-mud, and combat is generally all people have on their minds. The mechanics themselves in Achaea are all focused towards PvP. Thus, there really isnt any chance (or real mechanics) for Hashan to take a different path, such as its one of secret knowledge and wisdom. Shame really, would have been pretty nice.

This right here is such bullshit.  The minute combat comes into the equation, 95% of the population drops all pretenses of roleplay and starts spouting off mechanics.  I'd really like it if people would learn to integrate them more and keep the real combat chat to parties, clans, and tells devoted to such.  Just because Achaea is the "combat MUD" doesn't mean we can't have the same atmosphere and general loveliness as other games - hell, my first actual MUD had no roleplay in it at all, it was a pure PvP game.  It still had some of the best written quests I've ever seen, amazing atmospheric messages, and all this other stuff.

Instead of hearing that bloody fishmonger cry out again, you could hear stuff like pipes bending in the distance from water pressure.  And you know what?  Every time you saw that, there was a real chance of that pipe busting open and flooding the area you were in and making your life miserable.  That's just one example of one (small) area in that game.  We can be more than the combat mud, if we try.

Okay, I'll let you go back to Hashan chat since I legitimately know nothing about Hashan and don't want to just spout hearsay.

e: To be slightly less negative, I -have- seen people who can integrate them fairly well and I love them forever.  I know it's difficult given how precise combat needs to be in this game, but anyone who can do it well is awesome.  My problem is that when I'm sitting there trying to have a conversation with someone and then a few people start talking about balance times and traits and things like that.  Or just start testing something right there in the open while doing so.


VVV Oh, several places -are- pretty awesome.  The thing is, most people don't see them beyond being bashing zones so they can crit more.  I spent some time hanging around Umbrin and it was legitimately pretty awesome!  Clockwork was too, even if I wasn't able to solve the quest there my first time, I had a lot of fun interacting with and learning about the area.  My main gripe is that things are so poorly integrated with each other that most people seem to have "RP mode" and "Everything else" mode, the latter of which is more active than the former.

Iocun

Nellaundra said:

We can be more than the combat mud, if we try.

I never thought of Achaea as "the combat mud" at all. Achaea has a really cool and complex combat system, so combat is a fun and relevant part in it, but it's not its only focus. If you look at how much time an average player spends with various activities, PvP will take a relatively small amount of space, compared to things like discussions, bashing, crafting, or work done for an IC org.

Mechanically, Achaea may be more sophisticated when it comes to PvP than socialising/RP/PvE, but in part this is simply because an exciting PvP environment needs more mechanics than an exciting RP environment. Awesome RP can happen with barely any mechanics in place at all.

I definitely agree with you though that it would be great to see RP and PvP more integrated, rather than treated as two separate "activities". It can be difficult, since the complexity of Achaea's combat system can make it hard for us to still have some mental capacity for seeing things through our character's eyes, rather than just as a mechanical thing, but it's a worthy thing to strive for.

It would be unfair to say Achaea has no atmosphere though. The design of some of its areas (particularly the newer ones) is simply amazing and there are some pretty damn awesome quests around too.

Gibbi

Why not instead of taking Hashan in a more unified direction, we just do the extreme opposite?  I've been playing a lot of MKO, and the thing that really struck a chord with me was how much Krondor felt like a real city.  The politicians worried about the city itself, the Pathfinders are the elite military branch that leads battles, while citizens just hang out and can pursue whatever they wanted without the government or the pathfinders dictating their ideologies.  (outside of the occasional conscript or volunteer) But on top of that, the other guild in Krondor was the Mockers, essentially a thieves guild that has no qualms about stealing, scamming, or being a nuisance to the city.  In fact, they were paying off the government, and one of the guild ranks implied they were members of the town guard too.  Some of the best rp I'd seen was when the Mockers took over (and actually probably still control) an entire district of the city. No one ever stated it outright, but you'd have to be blind not to see it.  There was gambling, overpriced food, prostitution, text-drugs.  It was like the mob.

Okay, so I am rambling again, and know that further dividing a city isn't something most people want, but I like the idea of a city being a city and not a "everyone work for a single cause" sort of thing.  

On another note, I love the idea of a neutral-mercenary faction that @Trey put out.  If not Hashan, maybe some new city in the future that's ruled over by Prospero and Thoth.  Maybe even a "Delos-lite" sort of thing where everyone can travel and do business there, but it's possible to get enemied to it, unlike Delos (assuming that isn't a thing, and I just never heard of it) 

Alynna

Gibbi said:

Why not instead of taking Hashan in a more unified direction, we just do the extreme opposite?  I've been playing a lot of MKO, and the thing that really struck a chord with me was how much Krondor felt like a real city.  The politicians worried about the city itself, the Pathfinders are the elite military branch that leads battles, while citizens just hang out and can pursue whatever they wanted without the government or the pathfinders dictating their ideologies.  (outside of the occasional conscript or volunteer) But on top of that, the other guild in Krondor was the Mockers, essentially a thieves guild that has no qualms about stealing, scamming, or being a nuisance to the city.  In fact, they were paying off the government, and one of the guild ranks implied they were members of the town guard too.  Some of the best rp I'd seen was when the Mockers took over (and actually probably still control) an entire district of the city. No one ever stated it outright, but you'd have to be blind not to see it.  There was gambling, overpriced food, prostitution, text-drugs.  It was like the mob.

Okay, so I am rambling again, and know that further dividing a city isn't something most people want, but I like the idea of a city being a city and not a "everyone work for a single cause" sort of thing.  

On another note, I love the idea of a neutral-mercenary faction that @Trey put out.  If not Hashan, maybe some new city in the future that's ruled over by Prospero and Thoth.  Maybe even a "Delos-lite" sort of thing where everyone can travel and do business there, but it's possible to get enemied to it, unlike Delos (assuming that isn't a thing, and I just never heard of it) 

Having Hashan move into a neutral/mercenary city was what I was planning to do once I became Seneschal. I was even working towards a permanent alliance with the Vertani (The event was going on at the time,) so we'd have more force behind our actions.

Tragically I was removed from Seneschal very quickly, and that never panned out, and my suggestions to the person that replaced me was ignored. It would have been interesting if I was able to stay as leader and push that forward though!

Asmodron

Too often does it happen when radical change is presented to Hashan, that a shitstorm takes place and the leader is removed, @Alynna.

Would Hashan have benefited from such a theme? Perhaps. Having a city-state in Achaea that was different in its makeup from the rest, in that rather than focus towards a goal or theology, they simply are a service/mercantile city, would have been pretty interesting. One thing I hate are string attachments, which is why I generally hate the idea of citizenship, because with it comes devotion to whatever that city strives for. Join Mhaldor? You now belong to Evil and work towards its progress. Join Targ? You now are a zealot of Good and blah blah blah.

For a city to have no true goal and simply a person may be a citizen of it and call it home, but progress in whatever they wish, well seems rather enjoyable.

I guess if Hashan cant do it, perhaps one day Delos could be transformed into a city-state (Its government would however be run by mobs :P). God knows it already has two-guilds residing in it.

Karai

And yet we're in a position where we don't allow Mhaldorians or Targossians into the city. Really, the cities have to have a difference, a clear and overt difference, something that puts other cities off to them, a reason for war or conflict. As much as neutrality may be enjoyable, that neutrality has only really fostered apathy. Aside from a few games on CT and some well-meaning citizens trying to get involved, Hashan is just pointless. Sucks but, even if we wanted to be a mercenary city, we are outnumbered, outartied and, out-skilled with no real pull for people to join, or a sense of obligation to fight. New Thera has the library, Delos the neutrality. None of them are ours to claim as an identity.

Hashan really needs to be BUG'd. Since we cannot come up with a purpose despite or best efforts, it almost seems that the admins need to get together and come up with ideas, and then furnish them with events to at least stir up some intrigue, and when are we getting that factional identity stuff you promised, @Tecton? Short of this, Hashan has outlived it's usefulness and I can only see it going to way it did in Aetolia.

Tharvis

in my personal opinion, reworking Hashan will help for a short time, and then it'll just be pulled back into the spiral of apathy that has come to define the very core of the city. If anything, to really -change- it, a Shallam needs to happen.