Multi-classing

Asmodron

One thing I'd just like to suggest with the new multi-class system is that it takes into account if a person already has a skill transed.

What im saying is let's say a Druid decides to multi-class to sylvan, well then they already have a full understanding of Groves and Concoctions, and so they will still retain those skills as transed. In other games it always baffled me why someone who has already fully learned a skill, would have to learn it again in a class that shares that skill...

I love Imperian's multi-class system, as it takes what I said into account, and frankly imo is the best multi-class system in IRE so far. *wink wink @Sarapis* try to top it.

Shadizar

To be honest you could say oh you can't put classes in boxes i.e. just because he is a priest doesn't mean he is a spiritual person, he just preaches on the side while he aspires towards his true passion of stealth assassination etc. At the end of the day I feel Achaean classes are too stylized for multi-class. But whatever stirs the money pot I guess.

Lianca

I had a discussion with a few people on this, it's interesting and one that's going to require a fair bit of adaptation in the way traditions and culture are presented over simply acknowledging skillsets.

A suggestion that came up was that Houses in a city have a primary class, or two if they wish. Members of the House must have that primary class and will train in the culture of the House through novicehood. Upon reaching full member they would be allowed to pick secondary/third/whatever once they graduate. this would encourage a firm foundation of tradition and culture, then perhaps in more focused Houses formal representation, novice work would be done in the primary class, while exploration of full member aspects, combat, ritualism, high level bashing, exploration, whatever can spread to involve secondary classes.

This of course has nothing to do with the Houseless, was just an idea to approaching it within a single-class House that has a very aligned, very focused role already.

Iocun

@Shadizar: Well, I'd say a class is a little bit more than just a hobby. If someone "just preaches on the side", then he's a person who also preaches a bit, but not a fully fledged priest, to me. You wouldn't get access to the highest abilities in devotion, wouldn't ever get such a deep connection to your angel without really deeply delving into that class and all related to it. Without being a deeply devout, spiritual person you will never be a complete priest. A person with trans priest skills roleplaying a non-spiritual person is doing something wrong, in my eyes, no matter how you put it.

Nevertheless, I believe that characters in Achaea can grow sophisticated and experienced enough to be able to delve into more than a single class, realistically. I believe it is possible to be devout and spiritual enough to be a complete priest, yet also have spent many years in sword training to become a proficient blademaster as well.

Keeba

I like the basic idea of having the ability to switch between classes, kind of how I switch between races with the gem of transmutation (which is half as useful now that you split things into races and traits, you guys giving refunds due to that btw?). What concerns me the most about this is that if you allow people to indefinately spend credits into skills of various classes, the credit market will crash like it did when lusternia introduced skillflex. I'd have to leave achaea if the credit market hit the 25-30k that lusternia hit. Also seems daunting to have to pay 5-6 credits to switch between classes, if we're spending that much to make it available, dont penalize us so much for utilizing it like Lusternia did please.

Solteria

Multi-classing intrigues me for main one reason, I get to learn and do new things. I like change!  A use for the multitude of lessons I have lying around. I have wished many times I could give them away so at least they would be useful.

I would like the ability to change class be connected to some sort of quest, that you have to earn it. Although I do realize what an incredible amount of work that would be.

I do not like what the talismans have become, a way for those who can bash for hours to make gold. If you have hours and hours to spend great. If you don't, its useless. Getting to be a different color dragon is fun, but not necessarily advantageous. Now having to find a reasonable amount of talisman pieces to learn a new skill.. that might be worth doing.

Please do not give the power to dictate who can and cannot learn a new class to house leaders!  And please don't let it become a way for more fighting and conflict..

I have hated the way classes have been forced into certain houses and cities. ie. cities having to choose between concoctionists and alchemists and druids being "strongly encouraged" to join Eleusis. Part of their identity was being separate from cities.

People come to Achaea for so many different reasons. Some like the intellectual and creative challenge, some like the relationships it brings and some just like to kill stuff. I would like to see that respected. I have had many joys and tears playing this game but its complexity never ceases to amaze and captivate me.

Rangor

I just want to play with different classes without loosing 50% of my credits every time I want to go back to my original class.

Iocun

I want to be able to switch to a non-affliction class before fighting a priest.

Mizik

So can I go Sentinel or what

Grandue

I agree with Lianca about only having neutral classes being an option to multiclass into, that seems to be the only way to keep it somewhat solid in the RP aspect.

I would further make it a requirement to start as one of the classes that are currently required for the house and transcend the class (and maybe be a certain house rank) before you can multiclass. 

For example:

Occultist House: To join you must be an Occultist. You must trans your class skills, complete a certain ritual to prove your level of competence, be HR 6 to multiclass into a neutral class.

Naga House: Must be a Serpent to join. You must trans your class skills, complete some task to show your ability as an assassin, be HR 6 to multiclass into a neutral class.

Sentinel: Must be a Sentinel, Jester, Monk, Runewarden, or Serpent (holy shit you guys let a lot of people in, maybe limit that even more) to join. Must trans class skills, hug 10,000 trees to show your forestry love, be HR 6 to multiclass into a neutral class.

Empyreal Assembly: Must be Priest to join. Must trans class skills, spend 5,000 hours sitting on a guard stack to prove you understand what it means to be a priest, be HR 6 to multiclass into a neutral class.

Joking aside, this would ensure that you are keeping an identity as a house and not just swinging the doors wide open to let anyone be whatever they want to be without first nailing down the principles that make the house different from other houses. Additionally I think it would be seen as something earned and would be an incentive for younger housemates to complete their requirements and establish themselves as being a function part of the house before they start spending their time learning about class abilities that don't necessarily have anything to do with your House. 

You are going to have a bunch of people disagree with this just because they want to be able to switch to Druid or Alchemist so they can harvest their own curatives and want as few restrictions on multiclassing as possible, but I think any movement into multiclassing should be taken carefully with a lot of consideration given to how it will impact Houses. You don't want houses becoming irrelevant. If anyone can be almost anything, houses will just become hangout places where it is a popularity contest and has very little to do with the history, purpose, or goals of the house. For example, if just about any class can be a Naga, people who want to hang out with their friends in the Naga or want to get the benefits of whatever you get for being in the Naga will just apply and say they are sneaky and act sneaky to get in, pass the tests, and now you have someone who never really joined because they were attracted to the goals and history of the Naga. 

The argument that any class can be in the Naga or Druids or Occultists and still be as competent as a Serpent, Druid, or Occultist is just foolishness. A Jester can learn about Chaos, go through the motions of rituals and study the same books but no one can argue that a Jester would ever be as competent as an Occultist. Same for Runewardens who want to be in the Druids and Bards that want to be in the Empyreal Assembly. 

Exelethril

Triak said:

The pervading feeling that I get from you is that a class defines your character.  I see the class a toolkit that you can use to help define your character.  Ultimately you as the player choose your direction, not what your AB files say.

There are many examples within Achaea that defy your reasoning about classes having themes you have to follow.  (as you referred to devotion classes).  People have played fallen priests and lost devotion, grove users play in Mhaldor about bending nature to their will.  A pretty vivid example is @Bonko.  He pretty clearly played jester the opposite of every other jester in the game.  He was Heath Ledger's Joker, not Jack Nicholson's.

As far as being sneaky and not being a serpent.  Twilight's order was the most powerful thing around 10 years ago.  They were damn sneaky and they weren't all serpents.  Sneaky doesn't mean "I have access to phase".  You are once again describing things in a tool kit of a profession as defining a personality trait.

Convolution is the main problem without proper House restrictions on classes. Certain classes were designed to function in a specific way(toolkits) to fit into a "role" and when they stray from their general norms, I think it detracts from what a well-structured/well-defined world would look like.

For example, a jester with his class skills, as noble as he might behave, wouldn't seem "knightly" while he's throwing banana peels on the floor. As for knights, while every class can behave in a "knightly" manner, they aren't knights and don't belong in knight Houses simply because that's now how Achaea defines one of the three knight classes - Paladin/Infernal/Runewarden.

I do agree with your point that certain classes can and definitely should behave in ways that aren't specifically "defined" for their class from time to time though. However, it's hard to draw a line as to what's acceptable before it starts to detract from the enjoyability of others that prefer a more rigorously structured/stricter approach as to how RP should be done.

Strata

Novice aides and HoN's would have to be a lot more knowledgeable - having to spread their teachings across several classes. Am I one of the few who has not switched classes 50 times?

Shirszae

Strata said:

Novice aides and HoN's would have to be a lot more knowledgeable - having to spread their teachings across several classes. Am I one of the few who has not switched classes 50 times?

Knowledge can be gathered and stockpiled. Also, this might be different in other Houses, but I always saw the HoN as more of an aid in general newbie matters, while mentors were meant more to help with specific things, class matters among them. Anyway, sure, things might get a bit rough at first, but that the way with most changes anyway. Also, chances are one of those people who have switched classes 50 times is in the house with the novice, and can thus teach about whatever question he might have!  :P

Eurulis

Aktillum said:

All this talk of multi-classing destroying House RP is pretty funny. Let's quickly check the top 5 of HOUSE INFLUENCE:

The Occultists = Occultist only

The Warlocks of the Rising Phoenix = Magi, Shaman, Runewarden, and Alchemist

The Sentinels of Nature = Sentinel, Monk, Serpent, Runewarden, and Jester

The Ashura = Monk, Blademaster and Bard

The Arcane Kindred = Magi and Alchemist

The Sylvanic Fellowship = Sylvan, Magi, Bard, Shaman, and Blademaster

At the very bottom of the list (barring the Merchants and CIJ, Houses who are not related to any particular factions) you have the Spiritwalkers, aka the former Shaman guild. A House with a strong focus on ritual / shamanistic RP, yet is basically invisible IG and at one point in time, had a 23 year old House leader.

It would seem, despite whatever classes a House allows (what the hell do Jesters have to do with Nature?) that popular Houses remain popular because of strong leadership, membership, and just generally being a tight-knit group of like-minded people.

I think that's more to do with the Rp not being that great, rather than the restriction of class. Furthermore, the Spiritwalkers allow three classes into it. Finally your own post has the Occultists at the top.

I think class is a thing that should be used as a central facet, but should not be -all- that a person is.

Wynedere

Honestly, I'd prefer that houses were divorced from class identities and rebuilt based on interesting ideologies instead. That would solve countless problems such as players being forced to be in horrible houses in order to gain access to certain things that their classes require. It would also solve multi-class issues. 

Shirszae

Eurulis said:

Aktillum said:

All this talk of multi-classing destroying House RP is pretty funny. Let's quickly check the top 5 of HOUSE INFLUENCE:

The Occultists = Occultist only

The Warlocks of the Rising Phoenix = Magi, Shaman, Runewarden, and Alchemist

The Sentinels of Nature = Sentinel, Monk, Serpent, Runewarden, and Jester

The Ashura = Monk, Blademaster and Bard

The Arcane Kindred = Magi and Alchemist

The Sylvanic Fellowship = Sylvan, Magi, Bard, Shaman, and Blademaster

At the very bottom of the list (barring the Merchants and CIJ, Houses who are not related to any particular factions) you have the Spiritwalkers, aka the former Shaman guild. A House with a strong focus on ritual / shamanistic RP, yet is basically invisible IG and at one point in time, had a 23 year old House leader.

It would seem, despite whatever classes a House allows (what the hell do Jesters have to do with Nature?) that popular Houses remain popular because of strong leadership, membership, and just generally being a tight-knit group of like-minded people.

I think that's more to do with the Rp not being that great, rather than the restriction of class. Furthermore, the Spiritwalkers allow three classes into it. Finally your own post has the Occultists at the top.

I think class is a thing that should be used as a central facet, but should not be -all- that a person is.

I think class should be more like the 'icing on the cake' for a character, honestly. The way I see it, class grows out of the character, and not the other way. Each had a previous life, and a reason for choosing a path. I think the most important part is not so much confining the character to the accepted quirks and clichés of the class/faction, but to continually develop on the reason, how it evolves as more and more things happen to the character, and how it all affects the personality. Or something like that, I probably am not expressing it as well as I would wish.

Achimrst

Eurulis said:

Aktillum said:

All this talk of multi-classing destroying House RP is pretty funny. Let's quickly check the top 5 of HOUSE INFLUENCE:

The Occultists = Occultist only

The Warlocks of the Rising Phoenix = Magi, Shaman, Runewarden, and Alchemist

The Sentinels of Nature = Sentinel, Monk, Serpent, Runewarden, and Jester

The Ashura = Monk, Blademaster and Bard

The Arcane Kindred = Magi and Alchemist

The Sylvanic Fellowship = Sylvan, Magi, Bard, Shaman, and Blademaster

At the very bottom of the list (barring the Merchants and CIJ, Houses who are not related to any particular factions) you have the Spiritwalkers, aka the former Shaman guild. A House with a strong focus on ritual / shamanistic RP, yet is basically invisible IG and at one point in time, had a 23 year old House leader.

It would seem, despite whatever classes a House allows (what the hell do Jesters have to do with Nature?) that popular Houses remain popular because of strong leadership, membership, and just generally being a tight-knit group of like-minded people.

I think that's more to do with the Rp not being that great, rather than the restriction of class. Furthermore, the Spiritwalkers allow three classes into it. Finally your own post has the Occultists at the top.

I think class is a thing that should be used as a central facet, but should not be -all- that a person is.

When I was a spiritwalker there were many things holding it back, bad leadership, no city identity in the present, no direction or goals for members. While it has a strong ritual focus and allows three classes, at the time four, it's members are more infighting, like Hashan itself, than getting anything done.

The house itself is semi split in two factions ever since the creation of the Curia Spiritus. Which, to me, proves that those who are like-minded can easily find places where they fit in no matter which class they are and most of the time I wonder if houses are necessary at all. They are basically like clans with an estate and connected to a city, Targossas does fine without them, although I am sure they are missing some things a house can offer to them like a master crystal.

My point is, houses are great for RP but if newbie stuff is being taken over by cities. Then houses should be made into High Clans and allied to the cities they are in. To me this would separate the house identity from the city and make the high clans a place where a player can increase their RP potential with people who are like-minded and interested in the same things.

So essentially anyone could join the clan as long as they accept them and through the high clan system they can be approved or denied based on whether they are trying to make Priest/Apostate alliances to fight for evil and blah blah whatever. Hell you could even have them make their own little house halls that they have to pay for and get approved by a divine in a city or place that will force them to work together and collect gold and do other things.

Anyway just my thoughts.
(╯° _°）╯︵ ┻━┻ Deal with it :P

Silas

Ruth said:

Paladin/Priest for Targossas/Cyrene.

I will kill everybody you love.

Icaru

With the multi-class change I'd like to see some aspects of group combat re-structured. Like the possibility of having full-scale cataclysm with half a city as Magi, or things like that. I know it costs a fair amount of credits to trans a class, but it's still a viable situation that would cause problems.

Bronislav

I see a lot of people saying that Class is just a profession and nothing more - but in reality, is it so superficial? I can't speak for other Serpents, but being a Serpent is more than just a profession, IC - it's tapping into something primal in the blood. Serpents grow fangs/scales and secrete venom. They can heal themselves by laying in the sunlight. A lot of Serpent skills are biological functions that don't make sense by simply shrugging (Ha!) and saying, "Eh, I just practiced. Anyone can do it." Some other classes lean away from the ideal of "Class = profession", although perhaps not as much - Bronislav's heard a fair share of Blademasters treating their blades as if they were a part of their very souls, for example.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that multiclassing would destroy Houses. I think that some ideals may have to bend or break, but it would also give Houses a bit more wiggle-room and variety; however, my concern is if multiclassing somehow becomes the only viable way to play this game. Take Dungeons & Dragons multiclassing, for example: without a doubt, multiclassing will give one a variety of skills and abilities that they would otherwise not have access to. It could, feasibly, lead to a richer and more rewarding experience, both for the character and the player. However, in D&D, multiclassing comes at a price: a Level 10 Fighter/Level 10 Wizard will never, EVER, have the magical clout that a Level 20 Wizard has, or be able to dive into a dragon's maw and cut their way out like a Level 20 Fighter could (..Okay: maybe more like Level 25-30 fighter, in regards to dragons).

Would an Occultist jump at the chance of splitting their class with the Serpent class, if they wouldn't be able to Transmogrify or Phase? I don't think so - and I'm a little concerned at the other options that have been presented, such as having one active class and one or more "stored". Just sayin'.

Iocun

@Icaru: Requiring a number of people for an ability to work has never been a true balancing factor anyways, except making it so that it's in average used a bit less often. Either a city currently has the mages to spin a cataclysm or it doesn't. Whether it does or not is mainly just luck and dependent on the size of the city and time of the day. It doesn't make spinning cataclysm difficult or challenging, as it's a purely binary thing: either it currently happens to be doable, or it doesn't.

So, if it's currently not a balancing factor, nothing should change in principle with multiclass. If cataclysm is too strong per se, rework it, but then this should be done independently of multiclass.

Kyrra

Multiclass appeals to me because I could be fully self-sufficient. I know there's been mention of economic breakdowns, but I think a line needs to be drawn sometimes because it can be seriously off-putting to have to be reliant on other people for things that you could probably do yourself, given the opportunity.

Like I live in a city full of alchemists and 95% of them won't do orders for shop stock. I can throw an average of 50k sovereigns at an alchemist from another city to do them for me, or.. I could have the option of doings things myself. That's not necessarily a bad thing in my eyes, because some people are doers and others prefer to pay people to do things for them.

As someone that has never been Housed since they were introduced, I hope there are some options to provide more choices other than whichever House happens to hold a particular class. In all the time I've been playing, I've had no inclination to want to change my class or my race with Kyrra. Sure I have alts that I play, but those classes are tied to personalities that I wouldn't see fitting with my main character. I have a shaman but I can't see Kyrra using curses and dolls despite getting to keep my beloved totem skills. Well, actually, I could see her playing with dolls, but runelore and chivalry are her thing. And there are hardcoded restrictions where I can't play my Sylvan and reside in a city unless it's Eleusis, and Sylvan would probably be the only class that I maybe would change to because I happen to enjoy those skillsets immensely.

I personally would like to have the option to have both forestals and alchemists living in the same cities. It's a hard-coded restriction that doesn't force out the older players. Look at Targossas. The city was established much later, they have forestals and alchemist. If Targossas gets to do it because people are loyal to ideals and earned that right, if they grand-fathered in despite being a city that would take alchemists, why do cities need to have these restrictions in place? You have forestals living in Eleusis that still need to be out in the forests to use some of their stuff (so far as grove users go), so what difference does it make to whether or not that city is Eleusis or one of the others?

I think it would suck to have forestal classes automatically excluded from multi-classing based on which city you live in.

Riplakish

Speaking of all of this I would like to see some characters that are without any class(you know what I mean...) Could we make brawling in survival a better hunting skill. We can also make it a skill that increase in as the player learns more survival. For startets let's at least just bring its damage up to a similar skill as other class bashing skills. I think it would drastically help RP to have more characters out there that don't care for classes and are just regular farmers, fishers, etc

Erikka

I like @Nizaris 's idea. I think member of a house could multiclass to a class that would respect roleplay. I think setting a pre-defined list for strong RP classes and/or allowing the house leaders to choose the permitted classes can be a good thing.

For example a Sentinel from Sentinel house can multiclass to Jester, Serpent, Bard, Runewarden, Monk, Shaman, Sylvan, etc... but not to Paladin, Infenral, Occultist, Alchemist.

A Runewarden belonging to the Sentinels House for example, can't multiclass another knight class, occultist, Apostate etc because it would be complete non sense.

But a rogue Runewarden can multiclass to whatever class he want except another Knight class.

I think it would be good having a time between switch classes, like half achaean day I think is enough. Please does not include artefact to reduce this time, it would let people in a huge advantage on raids.

Kyrra

The amount of times I've lost an honours mob kill to someone newbie kicking it.... please no :P

Silas

@Sarapis @Tecton: My only real question is, will tradeskills will be stripped from classes at the same time multiclass goes in? I wouldn't want to pick up alchemist/magi only to find that a week later I didn't need to.

ETA: That is to say, do you want me to figure that into it when I finish writing the code?

Qahnaarin

Not to be a party pooper, but doesn't Achaea have enough balance problems already?

Iocun

Qahnaarin said:

Not to be a party pooper, but doesn't Achaea have enough balance problems already?

So you're one of the "fix all existing problems before adding anything new" types of people?

Antonius

@Qahnaarin: This doesn't introduce any new problems, though. The classes will be the same, and you won't have access to multiple classes abilities at the same time.

The absolute worst that can happen is that particularly unbalanced class combinations are more readily available, meaning those issues are more widely known and (hopefully) likely to be fixed faster.

Chryenth

Add all the things. Maybe some of them will cancel out the problems of the others.