Multi-classing

Sarapis

As has been mentioned before, we are going to move towards a multi-classing model and I wanted to open a discussion on it to get a sense of players' thoughts on the subject in general.

First though, here's what multiclassing won't be:

• It will not involve simultaneously having the use of abilities from different classes. You won't be able to elephant morph, throw a few sidekicks, and cast firelash, and then phase. While that could be cool, the balance implications of making different classes work together like that are too horrible to contemplate.
• It won't involve instant switching between classes. Now, switching might be very fast, but instant is out because while not as big a problem as simultaneously holding multiple classes, it'd still cause large problems.
• When switching between classes, you will not keep defenses or entities/falcons/angels/vibes/etc. 
  

There's not much point in asking me, "Will multi-classing do X?" or "How will we deal with Y in multi-classing" because while we know multi-classing will exist within certain boundaries (including the ones above), we've not yet settled on a design for it.

That said, I just want to hear people's thoughts on what excites them about multi-classing: Why do you want to multi-class instead of, for instance, having 2 characters of different classes?

 

Penwize

...before we get into this, I just want to let you know that I love you, and you are a wonderful person.

Sarapis

Oh, I know.

Seldin

@Silas better be ready to get to work here.

Penwize

Onward to answering the question at hand!  Alting just isn't for me, and I would vastly prefer to expand one story that I have invested a huge amount of time and effort into rather than creating a new one with another character.  So why would switching classes be a benefit?  The same reason dragonforming is a benefit honestly.  It's a development of the character into new and interesting territory, and opens up a whole world of possibilities.  What might it mean for Penwize to dabble in Druidry and truly expand his connection with Nature, for example?

That aside, it would provide a huge opportunity to experience other facets of gameplay without sacrificing the character I have.  I always disliked the notion of quitting classes, because it feels strange to just completely abandon a set of skills and knowledge in such a permanent way.  Setting them aside for another class might be far more interesting, depending how it's implemented and roleplayed out.  I really look forward to seeing what you have in store for this.

Antonius

"Why do you want to multi-class instead of, for instance, having 2 characters of different classes?"

The most obvious reason: So I can keep the huge credit investment in non-class skills and artefacts. Moving around without wings, celerity, dash, and warp once you're used to having them available is absolutely horrendous. I'm vaguely aware that before I had any of those things I somehow managed to survive, but I still often wonder how people live like that when world events remove those options.

Then there's the other benefit of being able to more easily find people of particular classes to test things out with as well as being able to switch to fit different roles in group combat when necessary. Essentially having more options, since that's never a bad thing.

Shadizar

Now I can make my monk/main bash until dragon. Then be my main/always wanted to try fun abilities class.

Riley

I have a few alts running around, but do not really want to expand their live more than the class tests they were. 

I just hope there are some stipulations regarding which classes you can select (No Apostate to Cleric switching, Forestal to Alchemist)

Melodie

I love the idea of multi-classing. Having access to -more- things you can do? Drool-worthy! I love the idea of having multiple "professions" and being able to take on another role that suits your character, allows customizability, and of course shiny new toys.

Why not two characters? I think everyone can agree that two characters means two separate personas, whereas with the same character, it's simply an extended expression of your main character, in a sense. Moreover, it'll likely be cheaper overall - don't have to do survival, avoidance, riding, etc twice.

I suppose my main question/concern is what this may do to class identity. Quite a few people embrace the concept of their class as apart of their character, many even basing the entire concept of their character on it. So how will classes retain their identity - not getting watered down, or picking two classes together to only min/max with - with this new concept?

Do you plan on introducing this as an actual event of sorts, to make it have conceptual in-character sense?

What about House restrictions with classes? This is seriously going to mess with me until this is figured out.

I really think this idea has so much potential - I just also think there's a lot of room for things to go -very- wrong. I have faith in you guys, but I do wonder how you'll balance it all to make it all flow together seamlessly.

Athrax

What are the limitation going to be as far as how many classes you can multi-class as?  Will all class skills be opened up when you switch?   I'm intrigued.

Iocun

Having two characters of different classes may work for some people, but I think quite a few of us simply can't manage to play several characters at the same time with the intensity we'd like. Building up a character can be a lot of work, all the way from working through org requirements, bashing to a decent level, building relationships with other characters, etc. And all the time spent on playing said alt is time during which I might be missing something fun that might be happening for my main.

I think there are extremely few people who can play several characters at once without ending up neglecting one of them and eventually giving her/him up.

Furthermore, creating alts and dropping them again after a while always makes me feel a bit bad for the people who might have gone to troubles helping that alt as a newbie in a house, possibly giving interviews, and so on. I know how frustrating it can be if nine out of ten new characters in a house end up going dormant extremely quickly. This doesn't exactly promote the spirit of helping newbies.

I want to be able to fully concentrate on one character and put all my creative energy into that. At the same time, a single class may simply not offer me everything I'd like.

My own character is very much build around the "monk" archetype, which is what I started out as too. Later I found however, that serpent give me much more fun when it comes to pure combat mechanics, so I was always stuck in a bit of a dilemma. I want to stay serpent because 1v1 fighting as a serpent is more fun than fighting as a monk to me, but I also want to change to monk again, because it simply would fit my character's RP much better. Multiclassing would give me the option to unite the two and play a monk who also has acquired the skills of a serpent.

As for how I'd like it to be implemented: I seriously hope that switching between your classes is not going to be too quick. Dragonforming speed with the talisman is already too much, for my taste, making a mid-combat switch feasible and useful in some circumstances.

I believe switching mid-combat should never become a viable thing in multiclassing.

Achimrst

One question I have is Embracing in multi-classing, do we wait to do it or can we do it immediately?

Also, some of us have alts for the other class we like to play. Will there be an option to kill the alt and give your main all its stuff?

I ask the second question because Multi-classing will kill alting for me personally ;-;

And finally classes where abilities can be taken, such as Apostate and Priest, and classes which are city reliant, Alchemist, I assume all of this will remain the same?

Simoln

While I like the idea of multi-classing, I can't help but shake the feeling that it's bad for RP.

Jester-serpents, alchemist-bards, occultist-sentinels, infernal-shamans.

I'm one of those poor souls that think a character's personality and class should not conflict. Multi-classing is going to be a train wreck for that.

Sylvance

Well, what excites me about multi-classing is precisely the things it won't be. I love multi-classing a la DnD, not a la MKO. That's not trying to be petulant, it's a genuine attempt to be constructing. If multi-classing is essentially going to be making class changes non-permanent, I'll just stick to alting. Perhaps a more constructive way of saying what I like about 'multi-classing' is that it gives an exponential opportunity to customise/synergise/make a 'unique' character. 

Something that in some way gives you benefits of having more than one class is what would get me all excited in my pants. Just a couple examples of the type of thing I'm talking about (yes, all of which have horrible balance implications):

• Getting a 'buff' related to your second class. So, Bard pays the extortionate rate required to achieve Runewarden secondary. This allows switching between the two, and when Bard, you get a little extra health.
• Having a few abilities that are kept when you switch between your classes. Literally maybe just one, and restricted where sensible. So Bard-cum-Priest, whilst Bard, gets to use a healing spell, but Apostate-cum-Priest cannot.

Second one shouldn't be horrendously difficult to balance, tbh. I mean, worse happened with embers, and it's not like that broke the ga- owait >_<

ETA: Can we PLEASE have a soft cap on the number of classes, in the same fashion as has been done with languages? I already find omni-trans to be fairly obnoxious, omni-class would make me want to start kicking kittens.

Sidonia

Sarapis said:

That said, I just want to hear people's thoughts on what excites them about multi-classing: Why do you want to multi-class instead of, for instance, having 2 characters of different classes?

 

Don't want to bash to dragon again

Chord

Achimrst said:

Also, some of us have alts for the other class we like to play. Will there be an option to kill the alt and give your main all its stuff?

I really hope that we have the option to consolidate our characters at a portion of the lesson/credit worth. Obviously, herbs and adventurer bought items should be lost, but I know I have alts that I regret buying an artefact/etc because I never play them.

Iocun

Simoln said:

While I like the idea of multi-classing, I can't help but shake the feeling that it's bad for RP. Jester-serpents, alchemist-bards, occultist-sentinels, infernal-shamans. I'm one of those poor souls that think a character's personality and class should not conflict. Multi-classing is going to be a train wreck for that.

I agree that a character's personality and class should not conflict. Your character should have an IC reason for being a member of a certain class, after all. But I believe multiclassing won't really have much of an effect on this. People already switch between classes now, and only in very few cases they actually accompany this by a change of their character's personality. In most cases they either switch between two classes which both make sense for their character in a way (which would be the same in multiclassing), or they simply disregard RP at all already, in which case they would continue to do so with multiclassing.

Sylvance said:

ETA: Can we PLEASE have a soft cap on the number of classes, in the same fashion as has been done with languages? I already find omni-trans to be fairly obnoxious, omni-class would make me want to start kicking kittens.

Very much agreed on this. Housed characters will have that limit imposed on them by default of course, but that doesn't apply to rogues. One danger of multiclassing is that it might promote rogue characters, due to them having no such limitations, so I definitely agree that there should be a cap, hard or soft.

Melodie

Maybe Bard Melodie will make a comeback after all.

Or the introduction of Magi Melodie.

Or finally embracing her inner knight and try Runewarden...

:-?

Sarapis

Character consolidation will definitely not be happening. 

Achimrst

Simoln said:

While I like the idea of multi-classing, I can't help but shake the feeling that it's bad for RP.

Jester-serpents, alchemist-bards, occultist-sentinels, infernal-shamans.

I'm one of those poor souls that think a character's personality and class should not conflict. Multi-classing is going to be a train wreck for that.

Alright giving this much thought, and editing myself many times. I have come to the conclusion that, I disagree that most classes conflict. Some surely do Infernal/Paladin, Apostate/Priest, and these can probably be controlled by having a person have to multi-class in Mhaldor or Targossas through a trainer or something, where both are enemies to one another.

Than there are those who have some of the same abilities Druid/Sylvan/Sentinel, Sylvan/Magi, Jester/Shaman, Infernal/Apostate, Runewarden/Shaman. These classes are already sort of "dabbling" in the other class so there is little reason why their personalities would conflict. I mean RP wise a sylvan only needs to learn metamorphosis and than they are the same class already, there is little difference between them.

Sarapis

To those of you asking questions about multi-classing: I generally can't answer because, as I said in my OP, I don't know yet!

Sarapis

Achimrst said:

Simoln said:

While I like the idea of multi-classing, I can't help but shake the feeling that it's bad for RP.

Jester-serpents, alchemist-bards, occultist-sentinels, infernal-shamans.

I'm one of those poor souls that think a character's personality and class should not conflict. Multi-classing is going to be a train wreck for that.

Alright giving this much thought, and editing myself many times. I have come to the conclusion that, I disagree that most classes conflict. Some surely do Infernal/Paladin, Apostate/Priest, and these can probably be controlled by having a person have to multi-class in Mhaldor or Targossas through a trainer or something, where both are enemies to one another.

Than there are those who have some of the same abilities Druid/Sylvan/Sentinel, Sylvan/Magi, Jester/Shaman, Infernal/Apostate, Runewarden/Shaman. These classes are already sort of "dabbling" in the other class so there is little reason why their personalities would conflict. I mean RP wise a sylvan only needs to learn metamorphosis and than they are the same class already, there is little difference between them.

I agree with most of this. I also don't believe that a character's personality has to be dictated by their class. Some part of your personality, certainly, but I've met, for instance, air force pilots whose personalities range from Top Gun-ish to mellow and nerdy despite being of the same 'class' (fighter jet pilot) working for the same faction.

Eld

Chord said:

Achimrst said:

Also, some of us have alts for the other class we like to play. Will there be an option to kill the alt and give your main all its stuff?

I really hope that we have the option to consolidate our characters at a portion of the lesson/credit worth. Obviously, herbs and adventurer bought items should be lost, but I know I have alts that I regret buying an artefact/etc because I never play them.

I would prefer we just respect HELP SECONDS. You already can't, say, suicide an alt and transfer its artefacts to your main. Why should the introduction of multiclass change that?

Achimrst

Sarapis said:

That said, I just want to hear people's thoughts on what excites them about multi-classing: Why do you want to multi-class instead of, for instance, having 2 characters of different classes?

 

I already have two characters, seems to be working for me honestly.  Although I have time to invest in it, for those who don't it would probably suck badly. Also being more than one class could help to develop characters into not being basic steriotypes of what X class should be, within reason of course.

Sarapis said:

Character consolidation will definitely not be happening. 

Alright, can't say I didn't succeed in getting more info :P
(╯° _°）╯︵ ┻━┻ Muahahahahahaha!

Triak

So I guess i'll stick this here.  This was a long email I sent to @Sarapis and @Tecton several months ago about multiclass.  This also includes my thoughts on houses.

First, I think multiclass is a great idea and will increase the player base of Achaea. 

Most of my ideas come from Aetolia's model for multiclass.  This is a bit complicated as Aetolia still uses the guild model rather than autoclass.

• 5 classes total - no 'main' class (this is because of autoclass).  First extra class is free; class 3,4,5 cost credits to add at an increasing rate.  200, 400, 600 maybe.
• I would like to see only dragons have access to this.  I understand this might be prickly with the player base, but I feel like dragon needs some nice perks.  If not dragon you could tie the addition of classes to a level.  80 for 2nd class, 90 for 3rd Dragon for 4/5.
• 12 hour cool down on class changing.  Also any kind of usage of an aggressive class skill locks you out from changing for 10 mins.  (Aetolia uses this)
• You keep whatever race/stats/traits you have selected.  ( this will keep most from choosing classes that are not in the same 'family'.  Magic...physical..etc.)
  
• An artifact that changes the above two restrictions.  Allows you to change class on a 1 hour cool down instead and also gives you the ability to reset your race/traits as well.  1500cr
• To actually change class I would say no cost or anything, just a say 30 second channeled command with long eq/bal.  (like Radiance)
• Class restrictions : If you hold any of the aligned classes, they will conflict with all of the other aligned classes that are on a different faction. 
  
• Sent/Druid/Sylvan - Infernal/Apo - Occie - Priest/Paladin.  You can own any of these classes in the same group, but you can not own classes from different groups.
  

Houses - This is something i'm pretty passionate about since I feel like houses are pretty broken in their current state. 

I think Korben had a great comparison on the forums when he mentioned the Game of Thrones priests (I hope you two watch GOT).  While they are both "priests" their lifestyles and experiences are very different.  I feel Achaea should be this way.  An in-game example might be the magi class.  The Ashura house is always thought of as a physical class with swords and fists, but the ideal of the Ashura goes beyond that.  I would love to be able to be a magic user in the Ashura because my character represents their ideals of combat and respect, etc.  While another mage might prefer to be in the Shadowsnakes to be secret and behind the shadows kind of RP.  This is currently impossible as the class belongs to the Warlocks.  I feel like tying a class to their ancestral guild home is a big mistake and all of the cities and houses suffer from it.

My idea for houses is to completely wash away any kind of class ties to them and instead let them make their own  RP.  I thought this is the direction Matt wanted Houses to go in the first place, but at this point houses are kind of just gimped guilds.  Let a house decide what kind of classes you can or can't have. I think this is -very- important with the upcoming introduction of multiclass.

To try to enforce some sense of identity in the house you can have the perks that would be best suited for certain classes, like icon tuning, milking rooms, hatchery, master crystal etc.

I know a lot of people love the house they are in but feel like the classes might be stale so they end up stuck in the game with no fun, go dormant or alt.

TLDR for houses

• No class restrictions for houses beyond the conflict spheres (nature, chaos, good, evil), let the house determine what they want to do.
• House perks that generally point the house into one area. (magic, chaos, physical, etc)
• The house changes can be put in sooner rather than later.  (I know you guys are working on something with Targ houses)  I would love to see the houses created with no class restriction and each house in the city form their own RP.
• A house should be a collection of a myriad of classes and people with the same ideals and thoughts - not just a bunch of monks because the old guild was monks.
• Your class is just your profession in the game, not who you are necessarily.  (Thoros of Myr uses a sword and gets bloody but he is a priest)

Simoln

@Sarapis it's not a matter of class dictating personality, so much as it is personality coinciding with the class. You met two pilots with different personality types, but neither were afraid of flying. In the same regard, should a bard be anti-social and cooped up in an alchemy lab? Should a sword-swinging knight conjure holocaust globes?

Like Melodie said, I'm afraid it'll hurt class identity more than Iocun's class-hoppers already do.

Obviously it's on the players to not be ridiculous with their character development, but still something to consider.

Shirszae

Simoln said:

 should a bard be anti-social and cooped up in an alchemy lab? 

What makes you think that a bard can't be anti-social? Just because he likes singing, music, and art, doesn't mean he necessarily has to be a crowd-loving person.

Also, love all of @Triak's ideas, but definitely no to multiclassing being only for dragons.

Penwize

Shirszae said:

Simoln said:

 should a bard be anti-social and cooped up in an alchemy lab? 

What makes you think that a bard can't be anti-social? Just because he likes singing, music, and art, doesn't mean he necessarily has to be a crowd-loving person.

Or, what makes people in alchemy labs anti-social?  I mean, I've met a whole lot of people who work in labs who are the exact opposite of anti-social, some of them to the point of being crazy loud drunks.  Profession stereotypes might exist, but they are not an accurate representation of that profession's whole populace. 

Simoln

You might be missing my point there...

Sarapis

@Simoln Two fighter pilots probably don't have a fear of flying...but that's one single personality trait they -don't- have out out of millions they also don't have, and hundreds or thousands they do have.

My point just being that almost nobody is actually a caricature. They may have stereotypical traits, but inevitably the full range of their personality will dwarf those stereotypes. Godwin's law time: Hitler, one of the most ironfisted dictators of the 20th century, saw himself as an artist more than a politician. In 1939 he told the British ambassador, "I am an artist and not a politician. Once the Polish question is settled, I want to end my life as an artist." I mean, that's one of the biggest mass murderers and would-be conquerors in history. And he thinks of himself as an artist. 

I normally would never bring up Hitler/nazis because of Godwin's law, but it's a good example in this case. 

Simoln

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying it wouldn't make sense for you to run a text game company and sit behind a computer all day if you hated computers.