Standards and Accessability

Lianca

There are Houses with specific purposes, and the best of these are able to cater to the combatants, the non-com scholars, the ritualists who want a little combat, the dabblers, the workhorses, those inbetween, and those who want to idle about all day.

It's more than possible to teach base ethos of an organisation, push for quality (not necessarily grammar nazi, but encouraging people to be engaged and putting forth their best effort) while still catering to what they want to do and allowing breadth of personality and goal within a single unified group.

Tarkanian

this being a game, grammar/syntax should not be be held against the newbie. it's the thought that counts.

if it was one of those bardic/artisanal works, then that's something different.

Kyrra

It's still a text game and some effort should be made.

I receive inquiries at work written in "net speak" which I automatically bin because I expect people to have a base understanding of the English language -as native English speakers- and it's pretty sad when every Vietnamese family wanting to buy land writes better than half the people I went to school with.

Yes it's a game but people can learn a hell of a lot about a language from playing a text game. My spelling and vocabulary improved a lot in school after I started MUDing and I probably have the grammar nazis to thank for it. I am not perfect but at least I make a conscious effort.

I personally wouldn't expect perfectly written thesis-length essays in game but if people can't put a little bit of effort into one or two paragraphs, it tells me that they probably don't care and prefer a glorified chat room game.

I guess having an education is just something that is important to me and there are opportunities to learn in Achaea while still having fun with other aspects of the game. I envy the description skills of Amunet and the writing skills of Jurixe.. perhaps they are naturally talented but how much does being in a text environment help in general?

Tarkanian

Kyrra said:

It's still a text game and some effort should be made.  

understandably so. but if it's come to the point that it causes someone who's ESL to be depressed and quit the game, i think you have to draw the line somewhere.

Kyrra said:

Yes it's a game but people can learn a hell of a lot about a language from playing a text game. 

... which is why consideration and care should be given to those players who are struggling with english, instead of outright criticizing them for their "flawed" work.

Tarkanian

Mishgul said:

at what point are we telling them they aren't good enough to take part and have fun? 

also, this should never be the case. 

Synbios

Strata said:

What if my intelligence is in the 10-12 range? Oh wait... Nobody actually considers things like that for RP.

They should rename intelligence to 'magic affinity'. Just saying.

Strata

Katzchen said:

Strata said:

What if my intelligence is in the 10-12 range? Oh wait... Nobody actually considers things like that for RP.

Who says 12 is low intelligence? That's average. 10 is still close... Personally I think it's a stupid thing for a stat... should be magic or something. Because this is a rp game, and very few people want to rp an idiot. Those who do, houses don't have to accept...

Adventurers are supposed to be the 'elite' inhabitants of Achaea, other than Gods and specific denizens. It wouldn't make sense for them to walk around acting like neanderthals.

Maybe I want to RP an idiot!

Xer

Anyone can do that regardless of their affinity to magic!

Blujixapug

Having designed advancement paths before, I respect that it can be extremely difficult to come up with tasks that 1. are somewhat standardised, 2. can be verified, 3. are relevant to the House and its ideals, and 4. are *fun*. #4 is by far the most difficult.

This isn't Skyrim, where you can tell someone to go make a bargain with a Daedric prince, or recover a Dwemer artifact from some ruins, because players are physically unable to script that level of interaction with NPCs and the environment. Saying "write an essay about the fire element" is much easier. Unfortunately it's very easy to fall into the trap of phrasing every task in the form of "write an essay about it".

There are other options though, even if you have to think outside the box to contextualise actions as advancement tasks.

All writing is not always bad. I dislike essays for being so self-contained and file-away, something that few if anyone else will read. I respect that they're a good way of researching a subject, organising your thoughts, and expressing them - but that can also be done as a conversation via says/HT, some kind of persuasive public sermon, a tapestry, a riddle, a banquet of allegorical dishes etc.

Shirszae

Strata said:

Katzchen said:

Strata said:

What if my intelligence is in the 10-12 range? Oh wait... Nobody actually considers things like that for RP.

Who says 12 is low intelligence? That's average. 10 is still close... Personally I think it's a stupid thing for a stat... should be magic or something. Because this is a rp game, and very few people want to rp an idiot. Those who do, houses don't have to accept...

Adventurers are supposed to be the 'elite' inhabitants of Achaea, other than Gods and specific denizens. It wouldn't make sense for them to walk around acting like neanderthals.

Maybe I want to RP an idiot!

Thats your choice, but I can roleplay hating idiots and people who don't put in an effort. it goes both ways.

Shirszae

Lianca said:

I have a slight problem with Katzchen's post, not for her reasoning, but in a city like Mhaldor, where every class has a specific House to belong to, and everyone has to be a part of a House, classing one as Scholarly and demanding higher standards of written work seems a bit daft. There aren't scholarly classes, but if you want to be apostate you suddenly find yourself held to a higher standard/amount of written work than a knight, serpent, or monk?

Seems like something needs to give there, either open class allowance and have the Houses tied on ethos, or standardise expectations across Houses and restrict by class.

Nothing needs to give in. Organizations don't need to be copies of each other. Its up to each organization to define itself. And thats perfect.

Strata

Shirszae said:

Strata said:

Katzchen said:

Strata said:

What if my intelligence is in the 10-12 range? Oh wait... Nobody actually considers things like that for RP.

Who says 12 is low intelligence? That's average. 10 is still close... Personally I think it's a stupid thing for a stat... should be magic or something. Because this is a rp game, and very few people want to rp an idiot. Those who do, houses don't have to accept...

Adventurers are supposed to be the 'elite' inhabitants of Achaea, other than Gods and specific denizens. It wouldn't make sense for them to walk around acting like neanderthals.

Maybe I want to RP an idiot!

Thats your choice, but I can roleplay hating idiots and people who don't put in an effort. it goes both ways.

Or guide your idiot novices into idiocy-filled activities that they, as idiots, find amusing and entertaining all-the-while benefiting your house in some idiotic form or fashion. My house used to have written requirements but they were done away with in favor of assignments that require members to demonstrate they have an understanding of their class skills and our house's ideals. Doesn't make us any less knowledgeable or passionate about our house.

Taraza

Overall, most people are more or less more accepting on novice essays, if not they should be. I agree that while it is a game, it should be fun overall. Most Houses have their own type of lookout for writing style and expectations that come with it. For example: Someone of the Congregation would be expected to write something of better quality than of the Ebon Fist (overall that is). Most Scholarship Houses put so much more emphasis on writing. Though most Houses should be more lenient and helpful instead of saying things like "Your writing sucks, you fail this task." Job as House members should be to help each other succeed as well as keep in mind of the fact that English is most certainly not everyone's first language. 

Just my thoughts. 

Shirszae

Strata said:

Shirszae said:

Strata said:

Katzchen said:

Strata said:

What if my intelligence is in the 10-12 range? Oh wait... Nobody actually considers things like that for RP.

Who says 12 is low intelligence? That's average. 10 is still close... Personally I think it's a stupid thing for a stat... should be magic or something. Because this is a rp game, and very few people want to rp an idiot. Those who do, houses don't have to accept...

Adventurers are supposed to be the 'elite' inhabitants of Achaea, other than Gods and specific denizens. It wouldn't make sense for them to walk around acting like neanderthals.

Maybe I want to RP an idiot!

Thats your choice, but I can roleplay hating idiots and people who don't put in an effort. it goes both ways.

Or guide your idiot novices into idiocy-filled activities that they, as idiots, find amusing and entertaining all-the-while benefiting your house in some idiotic form or fashion. My house used to have written requirements but they were done away with in favor of assignments that require members to demonstrate they have an understanding of their class skills and our house's ideals. Doesn't make us any less knowledgeable or passionate about our house.

I don't have the patience for people who behave like idiots. Mind you, when I use the word idiot, I am not referring to people who are unwilling to write. However, thats the way you seem to be using it. What I meant by hating idiots, is hating people who prance about, refuse to do what they are told, and generally make an annoyance of themselves in some obnoxious way. I hate that manner of people, and will actively avoid them.

Strata

Shirszae said:

Strata said:

Shirszae said:

Strata said:

Katzchen said:

Strata said:

What if my intelligence is in the 10-12 range? Oh wait... Nobody actually considers things like that for RP.

Who says 12 is low intelligence? That's average. 10 is still close... Personally I think it's a stupid thing for a stat... should be magic or something. Because this is a rp game, and very few people want to rp an idiot. Those who do, houses don't have to accept...

Adventurers are supposed to be the 'elite' inhabitants of Achaea, other than Gods and specific denizens. It wouldn't make sense for them to walk around acting like neanderthals.

Maybe I want to RP an idiot!

Thats your choice, but I can roleplay hating idiots and people who don't put in an effort. it goes both ways.

Or guide your idiot novices into idiocy-filled activities that they, as idiots, find amusing and entertaining all-the-while benefiting your house in some idiotic form or fashion. My house used to have written requirements but they were done away with in favor of assignments that require members to demonstrate they have an understanding of their class skills and our house's ideals. Doesn't make us any less knowledgeable or passionate about our house.

I don't have the patience for people who behave like idiots. Mind you, when I use the word idiot, I am not referring to people who are unwilling to write. However, thats the way you seem to be using it. What I meant by hating idiots, is hating people who prance about, refuse to do what they are told, and generally make an annoyance of themselves in some obnoxious way. I hate that manner of people, and will actively avoid them.

Maybe give them goldenseal instead of myrrh?

Tarkanian

Shirszae said:

Strata said:

Thats your choice, but I can roleplay hating idiots and people who don't put in an effort. it goes both ways.

no one's gonna stop you there. but bear in mind that roleplaying such a character has consequencues, most of which is you coming off as a jerk. not everyone speaks and understands english the same way @Amunet does. true, effort is indeed an integral part of such a task, but then again, not everyone can give the same amount of time and effort.

EDIT: what @Taraza said.

Xer

EDIT: I took too long to write this. Move this up to underneath Taraza's post >(. 

Well, I wouldn't quite say that novices are expected to write something of better quality than of the Ebon Fist if we're going to use Mhaldor as an example. Rather, it would be that as spiritual leaders of Mhaldor, those that do write rituals for events, festivals, etc. are expected to be of fairly high quality. First few examples that come to mind would be the Iniquitous Gala presentations, the Moonstone ritual, that thingy that we did where people saw us die on deathsight and that other thingy Hasar and I did to make Jurixe rave about us. No, not that <.<

And to clarify, the Congregation has two main paths from HR 3 to HR 5, a combat path and a ritualism path. However, there is still a mandatory task for those on the combat path where they have to do some sort of scholarship task, as it's a task intricately tied to the history and identity of the House. That doesn't mean it -has- to be an essay however. A ritual, prayer, sermon, proselytization of some heathen are all options. You can also invent your own task, if the HoN approves, though most don't seem to go with that option. For example, I'd even take designing a Mhaldorian-esque object that symbolically represents some aspect of Congregation history and have them adequately explain it to me... Maybe. And again, for novices, the expectations shouldn't be that high. I do feel the Congregation does expect somewhat of a higher standard, but I know that our HoN generally deals with any potential problems patiently and in a way that's hopefully enjoyable for both parties.

Nonetheless, it is still the main obstacle that prevents most Drochs from becoming full members, but I still feel that it does give a stronger sense of satisfaction being a full member, and allows us to have an identity of being more scholarly - which is -not- synonymous with being hardasses. I know that I was personally very satisfied when I finished that requirement. If excellence in other ways are clearly demonstrated, there are still yet other ways to be promoted to full membership in the Congregation, though that's more for special circumstances/personal situations/not the usual way one should generally get promoted.

The ritualism path obviously has more writing and stuff, but that's a choice to be made. And the combat in the combat path isn't that tough, just some spars and demonstrating knowledge of what your class can do for hunting, ranged and melee stuff in raids, even if they can't execute it properly in reality.

That reminds me, HoN's have it tough. Thanks @Nizaris for making it so that I can do other stuff <.<

Taraza

@Xer I never singled out novices of the Congregation over novices of the Ebon Fist. I am stating overall, one would consider that a scholarship House would be expected of better quality of a non-scholarship house. I perfectly know that there are many talents within Mhaldor that have the ability to produce excellent work. Jurixe is one of the first that comes to mind. Perhaps I should have made that more clear...

Ah well, ladies and gentlemen..or boys and girls..this is what occurs whenever one does not have much sleep lately. I blame too many late nights on Achaea. 

Shirszae

Tarkanian said:

Shirszae said:

Strata said:

Thats your choice, but I can roleplay hating idiots and people who don't put in an effort. it goes both ways.

no one's gonna stop you there. but bear in mind that roleplaying such a character has consequencues, most of which is you coming off as a jerk. not everyone speaks and understands english the same way @Amunet does. true, effort is indeed an integral part of such a task, but then again, not everyone can give the same amount of time and effort.

EDIT: what @Taraza said.

As I mentioned earlier, when I said I hate idiots, I did not explicitly mean people who can't write. I meant annoying people in general. As for being a jerk, thats something highly situational. I relish being a jerk at times. However, most people I actually interact with would know better.

Tarkanian

Shirszae said:

As I mentioned earlier, when I said I hate idiots, I did not explicitly mean people who can't write. I meant annoying people in general. As for being a jerk, thats something highly situational. I relish being a jerk at times. However, most people I actually interact with would know better.

yeah, was writing my reply and after refreshing, yours came out. but regardless, my point remains, though not as directly in response to your earlier posts anymore.

Kuy

Blujixapug said:

Having designed advancement paths before, I respect that it can be extremely difficult to come up with tasks that 1. are somewhat standardised, 2. can be verified, 3. are relevant to the House and its ideals, and 4. are *fun*. #4 is by far the most difficult.

This isn't Skyrim, where you can tell someone to go make a bargain with a Daedric prince, or recover a Dwemer artifact from some ruins, because players are physically unable to script that level of interaction with NPCs and the environment. Saying "write an essay about the fire element" is much easier. Unfortunately it's very easy to fall into the trap of phrasing every task in the form of "write an essay about it".

There are other options though, even if you have to think outside the box to contextualise actions as advancement tasks.

All writing is not always bad. I dislike essays for being so self-contained and file-away, something that few if anyone else will read. I respect that they're a good way of researching a subject, organising your thoughts, and expressing them - but that can also be done as a conversation via says/HT, some kind of persuasive public sermon, a tapestry, a riddle, a banquet of allegorical dishes etc.

Back home, we do something similar to this in my guild.  Being the spiritual leaders of our organization, there's a pretty heavy expectation that our novices learn who we are, the liturgies we hold dear, and the history of the guild/org.  However... there's no writing involved at all.

Each task that's laid out is very, very scholar-intensive.  You must know wide-sweeping beliefs that the org holds dear, as well as incredibly minor trivialities of its history.  You also have to learn the intricacies of the guild's beliefs and histories... and it's pretty layered.  It seems like a really daunting task, but it's not nearly as hard as it might sound.

What happens is the novices are expected to read up on this stuff.  They're encouraged to write their thoughts in a journal of some sort, but it's never read unless they wish to present it (heck, they don't even have to write it).  Instead, when they think they're ready for their advancement exam, we make sure they have the time (the last one I proctored took about two hours, then again I'm far tougher of my own students).  The time-consuming bit of it isn't because it's going to take that long for them to explain everything.  It's because we expect them to be able to contribute to a conversation about the topics we're discussing.

For example, my student answered every single question incorrectly.  On the more subjective matter of picking a liturgy that resonated with him, he gave a completely incorrect interpretation.  He failed, but he still got promoted.  Thing is, he was meant to fail.

No one is expected to know everything; they're just expected to be willing to learn.  His answers were incorrect, but he put thought into them.  Instead of saying "Lolno, you're wrong", we had a super-duper RP session, allowing him to learn why he was wrong by figuring it out himself with more guidance.  The tasks aren't written to be cut and dry, "do this and you pass."  They're written to be fluid, adaptable, and provide meaningful chances for RP interaction between little ones and the people who've been around for a while.  At the end of the day, they shouldn't really be called "exams."  They should be called "extended personal RP where you'll talk about these things, so be prepared to discuss them or it will take a lot longer."  It's nice, it's fun, and it helps to build a sense of community in the newer ones.

*blush* *flees*

Sena

Blujixapug said:

This isn't Skyrim, where you can tell someone to go make a bargain with a Daedric prince, or recover a Dwemer artifact from some ruins, because players are physically unable to script that level of interaction with NPCs and the environment.

It would require the assistance of the patron, obviously, but other than that I don't see why this couldn't happen. Having house-specific novice quests that can be used for advancement would be awesome. The quest could reward the novice with some sort of trinket to show as proof of completion, or novice aides or whoever could just have a way to explicitly check whether a novice has done the quest.

Katzchen

Can you have house or city only quests? And inside that, can you restrict them to ranks? That would be pretty awesome.

Katzchen

Whoops. Forgot to summon the Goddess of facts. @Sena, @Sena, @Sena.

Kyriella

Katzchen said:

Can you have house or city only quests? And inside that, can you restrict them to ranks? That would be pretty awesome.

Well, there are house-specific tasks... not officially quests, but I think they serve the same purpose. We use them for part of our novice requirements, and anyone who has the right house authority can see whether a novice has completed them or not. I don't think city-specific tasks exist, but I could be wrong.

Katzchen

Anyone who's actually designed these tasks, or knows the rules around them, can they flick me a PM, or ooc message IG?

Kyrra

Cyrene has a city task that involves reading their laws. I assume other city or house tasks could be added but would need to be approved.

Katzchen

Kyrra said:

Cyrene has a city task that involves reading their laws. I assume other city or house tasks could be added but would need to be approved.

I know Eleusis has some. I just want to know limits, possible costs, etc.

Sarapis

I dislike requirements to write essays in all but the most corner of corner cases. That is simply not fun for almost all people. 

Jurixe

Some time ago, I inquired about city tasks and was told that they were put on hold for the moment. I believe they are (or were intended to be) an extension of the newbie task system.