Ramping up conflict

Sarapis

@Rangor Oh, I appreciate zealotry, and for those of you who want to be zealots, I say go for it. I'm just pointing out that you don't -have- to do it if it makes you unhappy. Being a zealot is a choice, and I don't want to push it on people or rule it out, especially as I agree that zealotry is interesting in games, to an extent at least.

This was, actually, part of the original distinction between Oakstone and Eleusis - the former was for True Believers and the latter was to be the city for those who felt affinity to the forest.

Borran

Rangor said:

Lol, we're going to continue to RP as a faction devoted to the protection of Nature. I don't want my faction to be based around things like... sip tea, hug fairies and laugh at the silly Mhaldorians who futively try to kill the forests. We already got cyrene and Hashan for that.

I want Eleusis to be a faction where "zealotry" is the norm, where even the non-coms engage and participate in world-wide conflict, ignoring attacks on what we're devoted to is ridiculous.

I don't mind the game being hardcoded the way it is, but it does suck for those who don't WANT to be fighting every second they are logged in. It does put some rawr into the snugglebunnies though.

And @sarapis should stop encouraging us to turn into another boring faction with weaker ideals than what we have now. I'd like the game to remain fast paced, action based, with lots of conflict. I wouldn't mind it if things were changed so we aren't mostly on the defensive though.

Yes, please!

Exelethril

Iocun said:

Rangor said:

@Iocun: Everyone has shrines, No one but occultists can get to the chaos plane, most cities have villages they will or won't defend, GoM defends moghedu as much as they want and when they want to, in fact it is the defenders that "initiate" the conflict, nishnatoba is very equal to all sides and has had praying/xp costs/andsoon adjusted for it's own sake.

Not everybody has shrines. If I, as an orderless person, defile your order's shrines, you have no way of responding in kind. This can make shrine conflict just as one-sided as forest conflict.

Not all cities have allied villages either - Cyrene doesn't. If Cyrenians attack Enverren, Mhaldor can't respond in kind.

Then we're getting into the question of who it is that "initiates conflict" and how much freedom to choose whether to defend a particular thing/idea is to our characters.

In essence, it's the same here for all kinds of conflict: Group A has a certain RP stance that causes them to care about a particular thing and calls for them to defend it. Group B chooses to harm that thing. Group A now has to decide whether to "defend" or not. If they "defend", that typically means initiating violence against group B.

This is the same for forestal conflict, defending player cities, defending allied villages, or defending shrines. In principle, all of those are entirely opt-in for the "defenders", yet depending on our RP, we may not feel entirely free to just ignore it and thus feel forced to defend. There's no fundamental difference between someone exterminating a forest room and an Eleusian choosing to attack him for it, someone hunting Mhun and a GoM member choosing to attack him for it, or someone defiling a shrine and an order member choosing to attack him for it. In all cases, it was the first person who acted in a provocative way and the second who chose to let it come to combat.

Apart from all this, making all forests an xp-loss free zone for all Eleusians would be over the top anyways, as it wouldn't only be used for forest defence. It would also give Eleusian PKers a quite huge part of the game world in which they can attack others (who might not be harming nature at all) without risk.

@Iocun : Each faction owns shrines so it's fair that each faction suffers from exp loss equally, it's not mutually exclusive to a particular faction. Village defense doesn't come with an associated cost of repairing in addition to defending, which is costly time/gold wise. It's not even remotely vital as to Eleusis' definition as a faction(protection of the forests).

There's the scope of what Eleusis is reponsible for as well and the ease of which it's attacked. Not sure if the exterm-happy OIA is still active but it's a pretty good example of how being only on the receiving end of conflict is one-sided not in favor of the defenders but its rival.

I think city raiding/room destruction is slightly more equatable to forest defense in the sense of scale and repair work involved. By that comparison, Eleusis is the only city that suffers from regular exp loss on its huge defendable territory - raiding Mhaldor would equate to no exp loss for Mhaldorians, hence unfairness.

Geraint

Honestly, I think for us to ignore exterminated rooms on any level would require a God-intervention saying, "Hey, dont worry about it." Otherwise, at this point if you want to role play a forestal your in-game choices are somewhat guided to the ultimate premise of preserving, protection, and -restoration-. I like it. I like the requirement of doing it.

There is an expectation for us, driven by all the former players before. The need to go out and fix what was destroyed, the need is dictated by eons of other forestals upholding the same banner. Otherwise, you would be very lonely forestal that is in contradiction to the vast majority of those around you or you wouldn't hardly ever see many promotions or political rise for yourself. Also, you wouldnt have many friends if you could get past the red tape of all the organizations. Nevermind that if you want to trans skills, you have to pass tests in Houses that would swear you do the opposite of your intended roleplay (that being a forestal who doesnt want to restore the forest).

In reality, Shallam use to be like this. Targossas was like a hall-pass to ignore otherwise "good" virtues that held them from enjoying all sides of roleplay before. Now they have thieves robbing shops in multiple Cities, and with Mhaldorians in some cases. Now, don't get me wrong. I like the now-more restrictive roleplay of Eleusis and being a forestal. I've always enjoyed it. I dont want to lose it. I just want to be able to stab back when Mhaldor and its allies stab us without having to face the conflict thereof or that of having to endure the same pain. Equality is not guaranteed, sure, and our choices endure us to certain playstyles, but it would still be nice.

Shirszae

@Geraint I honestly disagree with the whole 'do things because thats how its been done before'. That it would be hard or that you would garner enemies by being that kind of forestal has no bearing on the fact that it would be a valid rp choice. By all means, continue looking inside your collective box, but don't kid yourself into thinking the alternative would be plain wrong. It would be as equally valid. Perhaps not for -your- character, but for someone it could very well be. Also, if you think the only way to trans skill is to pass House tests, then by all means, let me sell you a bridge in California.

Alrena

@Shirszae you're describing the rogue and (very few) city forestals! That's their roleplay, and it IS valid! But this is kinda like being a Mhaldorian who loudly proclaims the Truths are false. You can do it, it's just not a good idea. (I'm assuming, I've never actually played a Mhaldorian)

Sherazad

Sorry, lol'd at Mhaldor and its allies. Carry on!

Nakari

I just don't get why it seems like forestals are so quick to dismiss their own agency. There are a ton of paths that could maintain a strong commitment to nature without necessarily doing so in the current sense.

Like, why can't the players get together and decide that now that since nature is strong enough to heal its self, a strong commitment to nature entails kicking the shit out of Mhaldor, or maybe even other cities? Something like that would probably be just as much a role dedicated to the service of nature, but it would get out of the current problem.

The conclusion from every thread about this after forest rooms gained the ability to heal themselves seems to be that 'we can't change our rp without divine intervention.' As much as think the current mechanics of the situation suck, every time I hear that I have to wonder if the players aren't as much, if not more, to blame. After all, while are certainly structural limitations, but at the point that you're just going to say that your characters simply cannot change then I can't say I'm too surprised that nothing is changing.

Achimrst

Nakari said:

I just don't get why it seems like forestals are so quick to dismiss their own agency. There are a ton of paths that could maintain a strong commitment to nature without necessarily doing so in the current sense.

Like, why can't the players get together and decide that now that since nature is strong enough to heal its self, a strong commitment to nature entails kicking the shit out of Mhaldor, or maybe even other cities? Something like that would probably be just as much a role dedicated to the service of nature, but it would get out of the current problem.

The conclusion from every thread about this after forest rooms gained the ability to heal themselves seems to be that 'we can't change our rp without divine intervention.' As much as think the current mechanics of the situation suck, every time I hear that I have to wonder if the players aren't as much, if not more, to blame. After all, while are certainly structural limitations, but at the point that you're just going to say that your characters simply cannot change then I can't say I'm too surprised that nothing is changing.

I believe it takes a year for an exterminated room to regenerate itself, what is what I heard no confirmation, not to mention the loss of the plants use for harvesting in the room while it "heals itself" the plants, Ginseng, Ginger, Lobelia, Myrrh, Elm, Echinacea, Nuts, and Burdock, are all necessary in one way or another for curing and concoctions. Leaving the room dead for a year waiting for it to renew itself and than grow new plants would seriously put a dent in concoctions curing. Especially when the exterminators do nearly an entire forest because there were barely any defenders to do anything about it.

So while it would be boring to ignore the unique combat opportunities given to the forestal community it would make it harder to use the one universally shared skill given to Sentinels, Sylvans, and Druids. So unless I am missing something here defending the forest plants is essential to our abilities and our RP. Not to mention just because you aren't a forestal and don't want to defend nature doesn't mean that defending nature isn't fun for us, we just tend to lose a lot of XP and concoction cures while doing it!

Nakari

Achimrst said:

Nakari said:

stuff

I believe it takes a year for an exterminated room to regenerate itself, what is what I heard no confirmation, not to mention the loss of the plants use for harvesting in the room while it "heals itself" the plants, Ginseng, Ginger, Lobelia, Myrrh, Elm, Echinacea, Nuts, and Burdock, are all necessary in one way or another for curing and concoctions. Leaving the room dead for a year waiting for it to renew itself and than grow new plants would seriously put a dent in concoctions curing. Especially when the exterminators do nearly an entire forest because there were barely any defenders to do anything about it.

So while it would be boring to ignore the unique combat opportunities given to the forestal community it would make it harder to use the one universally shared skill given to Sentinels, Sylvans, and Druids. So unless I am missing something here defending the forest plants is essential to our abilities and our RP. Not to mention just because you aren't a forestal and don't want to defend nature doesn't mean that defending nature isn't fun for us, we just tend to lose a lot of XP and concoction cures while doing it!

Hey, I am a forestal (well, debatably), I know what's in the forest, and I'll concede that there is definitely practical benefits to maintaining lots of rooms full of harvestable herbs. The problem is that the degree to which there is an economic benefit is probably not enough to justify the degree to which there appears to be the general attitude of immediately rejuvenating and replanting any and all forest rooms (heck, MY grove was rejuvenated in like fifteen minutes when it got blasted). 

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you should stop defending the forests because I think it's stupid, and if you are indeed enjoying it as you claim, then keep it up!

On the other hand, this entire thread seems to be about how the current forest fighting situation sucks, with multiple claims that forest rooms regenerating themselves would help fix things (its kinda funny that forests are rejuvenated so fast that people don't even know that's a thing), that divine intervention would allow people to change this annoying path of roleplay, and the usual complaints that generally follow any discussion of defending the forests, so this certainly isn't me addressing some sort of personal complaints.

Bambizlo

To be fair, defending a forest is not terribly different from defending from a border raid. Both sides will stand a similar chance at losing xp assuming equally matched groups. Exterminations do offer one benefit, however, as it allows for the full effect of groves/forest defenses - the damage here is not insignificant/woodlore to come into play which have comparably (to other skillsets) very strong effects in group fights. So while the potential area one might defend is large, the tools at one's disposal is also a notch above what other cities might get (and ease of travel via flow/gate, etc.) Now, I'm not saying that the current system couldn't stand for some changes but it's certainly not as hopeless or lopsided as some folks are painting it.

Oceana

Just a small remark. Rejuvenating a grove is not about getting harvestable areas again. Forestal skills depend on groves being part of the forest. Exterminated groves are not forest, making our skills useless there.

Bambizlo

Eh, most grove abilities are utility/travel based as far as I undersatnd so aside from group-based mobility being lost all you're losing in terms of group-fight potential is thornspray (which is ridiculous anyway. ).

Oceana

Bambizlo said:

Eh, most grove abilities are utility/travel based as far as I undersatnd so aside from group-based mobility being lost all you're losing in terms of group-fight potential is thornspray (which is ridiculous anyway. ).

This is untrue. There are more skills.

Bambizlo

Which skills are you referring to then?

Oceana

Become a forestal and find out!

Bambizlo

So in other words, there's no validity to your statement. :P

Blujixapug

Nakari said:

Like, why can't the players get together and decide that now that since nature is strong enough to heal its self, a strong commitment to nature entails kicking the shit out of Mhaldor, or maybe even other cities? Something like that would probably be just as much a role dedicated to the service of nature, but it would get out of the current problem.

Eleusis can raid Mhaldor, and Mhaldor can raid Eleusis. Cool. Mhaldor can exterminate the forests, and... Eleusis can do what in return? There's no equivalent, that's the issue. They can raid Mhaldor - or gank Mhaldorian marks, or defile Mhaldorian shrines - but that's a different kettle of fish.

Nakari said:

The conclusion from every thread about this after forest rooms gained the ability to heal themselves seems to be that 'we can't change our rp without divine intervention.'

Imagine if Mhaldor was told "you shouldn't care about Evil, forget Sartan". Even though that's the foundation of their whole city. That's basically the analogue here. That's why people are saying it would take a declaration from Gaia to give them an out.

The thing about forests regrowing automatically is that it doesn't solve any problems. It just provides a way to ignore the symptoms.

Imagine Hashan had thirty entrances to the city, no totems, and no guards. Imagine people raided it all the time and destroyed rooms and Hashan players were sick of it. Imagine that eventually it was coded such that rooms in Hashan un-destroyed themselves after 12 game months. If they wanted to take advantage of this "solution", they would need to sit in their destroyed city for two weeks, looking at how destroyed it is, and do nothing to repair it.

People don't want a way to ignore the symptoms. They want to be on fairer footing when it comes to fighting the fight.

To go off on a tangent, I think it's a bad thing that Eleusians are being (indirectly) encouraged to stop caring about the forests. People should care about things, or their characters should care. That's good for roleplaying, and good for building conflict systems around. It's hard to make people care about things like that. Look at Icons. They were arbitrarily introduced and people were told to fight over them. Nobody gives a shit about Icons though. They're nothing but a high-maintenance source of minor buffs, a poorly disguised mechanic. Look how hard it is to make Ashtan, outside of the Occultists, care about Chaos. Look how Hashan suffers for the lack of a central motif to care about. Yet here you have something that almost every single Eleusian player/character cares about a whole lot - the forests - and you're trying to get them to care less? I don't agree with that.

Nakari said:

As much as think the current mechanics of the situation suck, every time I hear that I have to wonder if the players aren't as much, if not more, to blame. After all, while are certainly structural limitations, but at the point that you're just going to say that your characters simply cannot change then I can't say I'm too surprised that nothing is changing.

You can tell people that they're playing the game wrong, and say that they should change. But in my observation it doesn't really work that way. I mean, I agree with you, people could change the situation by adjusting their attitudes. But they won't. Either people can't help their attitudes, or they won't listen to you, or they didn't hear you (not everyone reads the forums), or they don't agree with you. You can preach wisdom about how people should act, or should feel, but it's futile. It was futile with Shallam, and with theft, and with autoclass. You have to change the parameters of the game if you want people to play it differently.

Mishgul

There is no equivalent in or around Mhaldor for any of this to matter.

Also it is Eleusis vs everyone. Mhaldor just happens to be its current target.

Rangor

Them pesky cities are next I tell you. Only they don't have any as obvious impact on Nature, so we kinda have to deal with Mhaldor first. Targossas gonna pay for that mess they made of the eastern reaches!

Anaidiana

so...you're taking on the Deucora who MADE the mess with the sword?

Rangor

Sure am! Given sufficient IG reason....... Like if Gaian entities started complaining about the water being polluted, forest being cleared for farmland.....

Penwize

Rangor said:

Sure am! Given sufficient IG reason....... Like if Gaian entities started complaining about the water being polluted, forest being cleared for farmland.....

To be fair, some of that sort of thing happened when it first stared and the majority of Eleusians fought really, really hard to ignore it, so it kind of went away.

Rangor

I know.

Needs proper divine sustained push, through animated npc's and forests acting out and the old wild witch o the wood telling us what fools we are for letting the burning gods followers be left to their own devices.

Can't teach a stubborn old goat new tricks in a day.

Nakari

@Blujixapug

Let me first say that I was never trying to argue against the fact that 

a) the current system is structurally imbalanced

and b) that there needs to be serious changes to that system to create a method for forest conflict that is more enjoyable and even for both sides

On the other hand, I do think that it is possible and would probably be productive if the view and approach to 'defending the forests' was changed from the current mode of all-consuming military defense and immediate replanting. It's certainly not that I'd claim that people should care less about the forests, I completely agree that this would be a negative mindset. However, I think that it is possible, and could be done without destroying a strong ethic of valuing the forest, to shift what defending the forest and nature means to a more offensive mindset that, while not ignoring the damage to forests, at least remove the need to heal every room immediately and perhaps allow some amount of damage to last for a time. I don't see why rather then a focus that says that the forests need to be 'healed' immediately, the focus could be on getting back at the groups who did it. Again, I'm not claiming that this is a replacement for the need for a balanced system, rather it might help to make a bad system somewhat better. 

And I'll concede that people rarely change on their own, but I don't think that excuses the attitude that 'I hate how things are, but I certainly can't do anything to change mine or my character's attitude.' And Shallam might well be the perfect example of why changing mindsets without dramatic intervention may not be likely to occur. On the other hand, I don't believe that ceding control over rp to the situation of the game is productive either.

Penwize said:

Rangor said:

Sure am! Given sufficient IG reason....... Like if Gaian entities started complaining about the water being polluted, forest being cleared for farmland.....

To be fair, some of that sort of thing happened when it first stared and the majority of Eleusians fought really, really hard to ignore it, so it kind of went away.

This is going to be my warrant for why change is possible and does happen. I mean, we were straight up getting divine indictment of Cyrene, but nothing came of it, because no one wanted to really get mad about it. And that's the thing, roleplay has momentum, and short of blowing up cities it seems like this is pretty hard to change. On the other hand, it certainly doesn't change if everyone sits around and says that the responsibility for that change is solely on the shoulders of the divine. So yeah, I fully believe that we need structural changes, and that certainly the current passion for the forests shouldn't be lost, but there are also things that can be at least ameliorated, and maybe only can be, if people don't cede their ability to make change and sit down and try to make some.

Achimrst

Mishgul said:

There is no equivalent in or around Mhaldor for any of this to matter. Also it is Eleusis vs everyone. Mhaldor just happens to be its current target.

It's not Eleusis vs everyone. It's Eleusis vs Necromancers who are protected by Mhaldor.

Antidas

@Geraint we certainly do have thieves robbing shops in multiple cities. To be specific, those cities with actively harm creation. In -no- cases, however, is anyone robbing -with- Mhaldorians. If you notice someone doing that, feel free to let me, or @Silas know.

Shirszae

Achimrst said:

Mishgul said:

There is no equivalent in or around Mhaldor for any of this to matter. Also it is Eleusis vs everyone. Mhaldor just happens to be its current target.

It's not Eleusis vs everyone. It's Eleusis vs Necromancers who are protected by Mhaldor.

You are missing the point. Its supposed to be Eleusis Vs Everyone, because Eleusis supposedly wants to recover the forests and natural spaces that were torn down when cities were built. Thats what I've always heard, at least. Never seen any proof it, probably because as @Penwize said, you all reject it.

Sylvance

Antidas said:

@Geraint we certainly do have thieves robbing shops in multiple cities. To be specific, those cities with actively harm creation. In -no- cases, however, is anyone robbing -with- Mhaldorians. If you notice someone doing that, feel free to let me, or @Silas know in-character.

Sorry; I'm sure it didn't need to be said, but thought I'd add it anyway.

Achimrst

Shirszae said:

Achimrst said:

Mishgul said:

There is no equivalent in or around Mhaldor for any of this to matter. Also it is Eleusis vs everyone. Mhaldor just happens to be its current target.

It's not Eleusis vs everyone. It's Eleusis vs Necromancers who are protected by Mhaldor.

You are missing the point. Its supposed to be Eleusis Vs Everyone, because Eleusis supposedly wants to recover the forests and natural spaces that were torn down when cities were built. Thats what I've always heard, at least. Never seen any proof it, probably because as @Penwize said, you all reject it.

I'm all for destroying the cities, lets dooz it!!!

Although to be honest, how would Eleusis/Forestals/Oakstone even achieve that?