Combat Logs

Puxi

Ret is the literal worst and most unfun thing in the game. Hands down.

Adrik

One time Kaden dropped ret to gank me for a bounty. Then killed me twice, said i should've expected it and others would be MORE THAN HAPPY to get insta put to sleep on burst and truedie to behead after the fact.

Ret isn't some great equalizer. Its bullshit on steroids that he can spin it and web you. God help you if you prone but don't paralyze, because you can use panpipes while prone.. AND artie amnesia pets.

Archaeon

Artie pets in ret suck.  Otherwise, ret has been nerfed to shit in the recent years.  It's a great mechanic, and the biggest double-edged sword in the game. 

Aegoth

Artie pets are easy to deal with... it's called monkshood. Turn the pet against him and Kaden crumbles. Also drop flamed cube bc he isnt using reverb at all. He isn't locking at all or reapplying lullaby, so metawake. I'm more disappointed in how awful he is using ret than how much trouble Atalkez was having. Lots of little things to do to overcome the simplicity with which Kaden was approaching this kill. Amnesia pets are a bitch, but again..  monkshood/disloyalty

Achilles

Ret is more fun to play in (used to be way worse with full vibes, delph arrows) than anything else in Achaea IMO, you may have to manual your way out of more stuff than usual and that's more fun than people who just use some auto-offense.

Some classes have an advantage in ret, hellsight is amazing for example.  BM is one of the worst classes in ret.

Jovolo

I would like to stop standardizing classes so everything is eventually the same, thank you

Mizik

Or just don't fight in retardation ever because it's fucking stupid. Who wants to watch server side vs  human while you or your opponent sit quietly. It turns combat into a coin toss of what class are you and who attacked first.

We spend all this time designing all these fun classes just to have this ONE ability null them into dull bores. I opt out. 

It is useful in raids to equalize groups and that's it. Require 2 spinners and Magi can be great again.

Jovolo

I dunno man, that ain't really a fair depiction of retardation. If you go hands off keyboard and watch serverside try to save you then that's on you. It doesn't nullify classes, it changes the dynamic of the fight to be decision-making intensive in a way that isn't reflected anywhere else in the game and the fight becomes dependent on anticipation rather than reaction. Anything that reduces the prevalence of automated button mashing.

Mizik

Anything that negates 90% of the AB files we create is non competitive and detrimental to the game.

Tesha

Most systems handle amnesia pet curing suboptimally, for what it's worth, so amnesia pets have much more of an impact than they really should mechanically.

Aegoth

All the automaters are upset about ret (except kez ofc). Hmmm

Mizik

Everyone but Magi upset about ret

Penwize

Automation is objectively better in ret.   Server-side will only send a cure when curing is on balance.  Client-side automation can send a cure such that it will land the moment cure balance returns.

People that claim ret is better for manual are simply wrong.  It's actually one of the better examples of where automation earns clear, significant advantages.

That, and people with reliable low ping will always do way better in ret than anyone with high or variable ping will.  That alone makes it a really bad mechanic.

Adrik

Aegoth said:

All the automaters are upset about ret (except kez ofc). Hmmm

Except i went full manual in ret and due to how the new artie works, he can web or do something right before ret lands.

So he webs. Now I'm writhing while amnesiad and giving stupidity and para.. And now I'm free of web, i try to get out. Oops, he played panpipes twice.

So now i just exist on the ground. Metawake will save me. Oops. Lullaby. Okay i get one more chance.. Oh he deepfreezed me so now I'm shivering. And now I'm asleep again.

Ret is fucking awful. Even in the most optimal set up for me using martellato. He can still use panpipes prone. Which is stupid.

Sophi

Sounds like a panpipes problem not a ret one

Aegoth

Adrik said:

Aegoth said:

All the automaters are upset about ret (except kez ofc). Hmmm

Except i went full manual in ret and due to how the new artie works, he can web or do something right before ret lands.

So he webs. Now I'm writhing while amnesiad and giving stupidity and para.. And now I'm free of web, i try to get out. Oops, he played panpipes twice.

So now i just exist on the ground. Metawake will save me. Oops. Lullaby. Okay i get one more chance.. Oh he deepfreezed me so now I'm shivering. And now I'm asleep again.

Ret is fucking awful. Even in the most optimal set up for me using martellato. He can still use panpipes prone. Which is stupid.

sounds like you're not reacting correctly to the ret spin, and you're just letting it happen. You will always get balance back before the magi spinning ret does. If you see him spin disc/embed, then hinder him. Bard has some of the best hindering in the game!! Magi will never get the first hit in unless their opponent isn't paying attention. No excuses.

Atalkez

Aegoth said:

sounds like you're not reacting correctly to the ret spin, and you're just letting it happen. You will always get balance back before the magi spinning ret does. If you see him spin disc/embed, then hinder him. Bard has some of the best hindering in the game!! Magi will never get the first hit in unless their opponent isn't paying attention. No excuses.

This isn’t true at all, with the artefact regarding embed. Being on balance for a single attack (before ret embeds) means nothing if you get hindered going into it (like web). You would need to shield on embed and wait to attack when they strip shield. Otherwise yeah the Magi gets first hit every time.

Aegoth

Atalkez said:

Aegoth said:

sounds like you're not reacting correctly to the ret spin, and you're just letting it happen. You will always get balance back before the magi spinning ret does. If you see him spin disc/embed, then hinder him. Bard has some of the best hindering in the game!! Magi will never get the first hit in unless their opponent isn't paying attention. No excuses.

This isn’t true at all, with the artefact regarding embed. Being on balance for a single attack (before ret embeds) means nothing if you get hindered going into it (like web). You would need to shield on embed and wait to attack when they strip shield. Otherwise yeah the Magi gets first hit every time.

It absolutely is true, actually. Embed with the artie is 1.5s. Are you telling me that a class with 2ish second attacks won't be able to react on their offbal to an embed? Let's not be absurd. 

Edit: Also, shielding on embed is a very valid, powerful tactic to get a first hit in. Don't knock it

Atalkez

Did you not read what I wrote my guy? You’re going to have balance for 1 attack from spin to activation, and the Magi gets balance back before activation to hinder you as well. Unless they’re off herb balance already, any hinder you do is going to be cured right before they attack you, which equates to doing nothing to actually hurt the Magi.

Classlead regarding embed eq time with artie solves this.

Aegoth

If you're not using that attack to hinder the magi on embed so they can't web/whatever, then you're doing it . You can web back (not everyone has buckawns), leave room and lunge/prone (magi has no room hinder aside from frozenground, which is rarely used), among other things that aren't just straight up para.

Edit: The classlead for embed takes an advantage opponents -already- have and makes it even more powerful against a magi for their own damn vibe. You guys just want to bulldoze your way to a win when there already exist a multitude of ways for many classes to initially get the upperhand in ret. Not quite sure what to tell you.

Atalkez

Sometimes I wonder if you play the same game as the rest of us lol.

I can stab curare/kalmia, they eat magnesium and hit me right as ret activates. I can try to knees them as Bm, if they aren’t mounted, for a cheese going into it. If i impale, then they writhe I have to spend an entire action just to re sheathe the blade. If they are mounted, I don’t have enough time to hinder meaningfully. Pommel neck once does nothing, see above. Magi wins in all of these use cases.

Why do you assume the Magi getting hit is hindering them going into ret, but the Magi hitting you isn’t? The decks is far into the Magi favor almost purely because they get eq to do an action before ret activates, coupled with the fact they choose when and where to activate it, AND can activate it dry with no downside. Follow tumble and drop ret again on loop. It’s not fun or interesting to watch your curing because if you type the wrong thing you die.

edit: Bulldoze to a win? What a joke! So if a Magi can’t use ret they can’t win? Gtfo

Jovolo

Can't believe it's 2019 and BM still doesn't auto sheathe upon writhed free

Aegoth

I can't speak for BM, since it's a shitty class for ret. That, in and of itself, doesn't justify nerfing ret embed at all, more that BM needs some ret-related QoL with their attacks. Let's take serpent, for example: on ret embed they can delph/delph so the magi starts prone. Snake already passively prones while they can lay on other affs. Serpent can save their snap for ret, etc. Monks? Forget about it.. just telepathy spam. Alchies have passive disrupt homonc. Bard has lunge/DFA/prone songbird/hallelujah (which currently fires in ret for cures)/etc.  DW can just spam degen/reap and laugh at ret while attune fires. Everyone has web. I could go on. 

That some classes like BM have a disadvantage isn't necessarily a terrible thing, but I can agree that they do need to be more ret-friendly. There is no excuse, though, for bad plays like Adrik is doing, especially for bard.

Atalkez

None of what you mentioned is hinder going into retardation. When the Magi gets eq, they stand from the delph delph or snake. While I’m not discounting snake once ret is actually going, I’m talking about the initial exchange in the four or so second window as ret embeds. Same for lunge, Magi stands and attacks before ret starts.

Some classes are better suited for it, yes, but it’s not a double edge sword (as stated as the design multiple times), if you get to select when and where to use it, it’s not limited in its usage, and you’re always guaranteed an attack before it activates. 

I’m not a fan of dry ret embedding, it should be an augment to your other routes, not a route entirely of its own that has nothing to do with the rest of the kit. That some classes can handle it better is inconsequential, as the base issue of how it operates remains the same. It’s frustrating for everyone except the Magi, the general consensus is that it’s not fun to deal with.

Its very powerful, and shouldn’t be as spamable. I could have tried to hard nerf but but I didn’t. I only classlead making artie not effect ret embed, which afaik it wasn’t intended to from the jump.

Jovolo

The Magi always has the advantage going into return because they have complete control over when it gets dropped. They can time it whenever it is most beneficial for them. Pretending otherwise is silly, but that doesn't inherently mean retardation is bad. I'd actually prefer it be kept for 1v1 and phased out of group combat somehow

Atalkez

Jovolo said:

The Magi always has the advantage going into return because they have complete control over when it gets dropped. They can time it whenever it is most beneficial for them. Pretending otherwise is silly, but that doesn't inherently mean retardation is bad. I'd actually prefer it be kept for 1v1 and phased out of group combat somehow

See I’m the opposite. Magi got this great rework and has one of the best offenses in the game. Ret has nothing to do with any of their routes whatsoever, so it’s usage 1v1 is just weird to me outright. I like it in groups because it can be an equalizer for smaller teams.

Tesha

BM has some options in ret, but you're 100% going to struggle against people with an amnesia pet or two if your curing isn't set up to handle them correctly. I've fought people with and without amnesia pet, and without amnesia pet, Magi doesn't have the speed to outpace curing unless the opponent repeatedly makes mistakes.

Jovolo

Is there anyone here that actually thinks amnesia is a good affliction tho? We should just del it

Aegoth

Would love to replace amnesia with vertani stun. Let's do it

Aegoth

Atalkez said:

Jovolo said:

The Magi always has the advantage going into return because they have complete control over when it gets dropped. They can time it whenever it is most beneficial for them. Pretending otherwise is silly, but that doesn't inherently mean retardation is bad. I'd actually prefer it be kept for 1v1 and phased out of group combat somehow

See I’m the opposite. Magi got this great rework and has one of the best offenses in the game. Ret has nothing to do with any of their routes whatsoever, so it’s usage 1v1 is just weird to me outright. I like it in groups because it can be an equalizer for smaller teams.

I agree that 1v1, a good magi shouldn't need to ret at all. If it is done, it's usually a "fuck you" to whoever you're doing it to. I much prefer fighting people with destroy/pummel routes because they are more versatile.