Combat Logs

Jacen

Ahh, but if you make a mistake as an affliction class, you're work is completely reset. Make a mistake as a limb damage class, and you don't know where the heck you are. Its either cross fingers and hope for a double break, or go ahead and reset the limbs yourself.

I have the worst luck throwing a combo as soon as I get blacked out, and having no idea what hit and what missed.

Vaehl

Iocun said:

 (Hint, hint limb assessment ability classlead.) 

Please. No. We don't want this admin, ignore him.

Mishgul

I just have a big button that says kill and I press it then go wark at medians

Daslin

@Dunn that was the GREATEST .gif any of the dream team have posted.

Achilles

Mishgul said:

I just have a big button that says kill and I press it then go wark at medians

Thats because you are abusing a huge game flaw mechanic. There are no cures to allergies thus flowerpots are overpowered.

Dunn

@Daslin

Mizik

Jacen said:

Make a mistake as a limb damage class, and you don't know where the heck you are. Its either cross fingers and hope for a double break, or go ahead and reset the limbs yourself.

Suuuuuuch a nightmare with leg slash! Stupid split damage ability. Doesn't help that Iocun is anti Airfist Jesus + Sir Dodgealot.

Iocun

Vaehl said:

Iocun said:

 (Hint, hint limb assessment ability classlead.) 

Please. No. We don't want this admin, ignore him.

There are just too many ways to mess with limb counts that are almost unreadable from the outside, ranging from pre-damaged limbs before a fight, adding/removing arties in mid-fight to change your max health, fake salve applications, to using rebounding to add damage to your own limbs. The last of those I'm fine with (and I do it), because it can be defeated by simply not using rebounding (and it's perfectly possible to survive anyone without rebounding, if you're careful), and I'm fine with stuff like fake applying as well (I do it too), but if someone makes use of the whole package, it's just currently too easy to prevent any decent limb counting.

Add to this the fact that the no limb damage formulas are made public by the admins, and you get a needlessly large hurdle for novices to get into break-based combat, which only encourages the "get more arties so I can kill people even without a proper setup"-approach.

Vaehl

The limb assess ability would likely be too strong, and there's ways of checking if you really did reset them (proning with the break). Though you are right, and even this isn't foolproof. Still, I don't really want to make limb combat that easy.

Different fix pls.

Iocun

Yeah, proning with the break isn't a certain way of telling either, depending on the circumstances, not even to mention that monks in particular can have a hard time proning a mounted target with the break (they still can do it, of course, but it can come with further downsides when used for the mere purpose of resetting a single limb).

I agree that limb combat shouldn't be made ridiculously easy, but I don't think my suggested ability would make it so, assuming that it'd come with a relatively significant eq loss. I'd rather the challenges lied in figuring out a good setup and putting it into practice, than in the obscurity of the limb break formula.

Panpardus

Iocun said:

Vaehl said:

Iocun said:

 (Hint, hint limb assessment ability classlead.) 

Please. No. We don't want this admin, ignore him.

There are just too many ways to mess with limb counts that are almost unreadable from the outside, ranging from pre-damaged limbs before a fight, adding/removing arties in mid-fight to change your max health, fake salve applications, to using rebounding to add damage to your own limbs. The last of those I'm fine with (and I do it), because it can be defeated by simply not using rebounding (and it's perfectly possible to survive anyone without rebounding, if you're careful), and I'm fine with stuff like fake applying as well (I do it too), but if someone makes use of the whole package, it's just currently too easy to prevent any decent limb counting.

Add to this the fact that the no limb damage formulas are made public by the admins, and you get a needlessly large hurdle for novices to get into break-based combat, which only encourages the "get more arties so I can kill people even without a proper setup"-approach.

From memory I thought it was ruled illegal to remove arties  for those sorts of purposes as you are getting an advantage by abusing a mechanic in the game.

It's a little different but I remember when Rangor used to take his off and on for sipping.

Iocun

Yeah, I think it is, but most people don't know about that ruling to begin with, nor would they realize if an opponent "cheated" in such a form. If someone has an orb of suppression, you wouldn't notice them wearing and removing any arties and simply think you messed up your count otherwise. Plus, I find that imposing administrative laws is a questionable way of ensuring combat balance to begin with.

Mishgul

i always counted limbs in my head with 6 different sets of weapons. I found it easy personally I don't know why people obsess over the counters and formulas. 

Daslin

@Mishgul Shush it, Rainman. Not all of us know there's 482 toothpicks on the ground.

Garao

A survival ability with an equilibrium of four seconds, perhaps showing something vague like (You perceive that Iocun's left leg is between 80% and 89% damaged.) wouldn't be too bad. 

Limbassess <person> <limb>.

Just as long as it isn't specific. That would be the only thing I can think of to place me against the idea. Honestly, though... There are ways to see if a break was a true break or not like Vaehl said, and coding a script to keep track of slashes (for knights and BM's, everyone else has it easy) is not difficult. While it would be nice, it isn't exactly a huge downside to limb-based classes.

Daslin

But anyways, to speak on the idea of it. It's dumb. You can't legit look at someone's RL leg and see that if you flick it, it'll break. You only ever see when it is broken or a bone is sticking out of it. Srsly guise, let's keep a bit of realism in teh game!

Sohl

Afaik, the official ruling regarding removing/wearing artefacts was that it constituted spamming your opponent, so you'd need to be shrouded or have an orb of suppression to do it.

Rangor

Fairly sure the ruling included those shrouded, because i asked if i could just buy a cloak of shrouding and was told no.

Sohl

Oh. What about the orb?

Tirac

I asked about remove/wear as well. I was told that we aren't allowed to remove or put on artifacts during combat in any way that would benefit us. You can remove/wear when you're not actively engaged in combat, but once you engage, you cannot change what is worn/unworn.

In the case of Rangor using health artifacts to wear/sip/remove, the ruling was probably because of the massive defensive bonus this gives, and not because of the spam.

Sohl

That's good, though I could have sworn someone issued themself about this ages ago and got told just don't spam people. Maybe they updated their ruling on it since then.

Tvistor

Going to issue everyone with a Shackle of Garash now.

A squire sparred me yesterday, and got the limbcounting all wrong (although overall was a good showing). I'd roll with a 'vague' estimate on limb damage on a limb assess. My problem with limbcounting for novices is that figuring out when a limb is going to break on a new opponent seems like a silly amount of trouble for them and would be really easily avoided with a (probably simple?) change like what was suggested.

It's hard to get them into serpent combat, for example, but there is very little administration can do to help apart from shift some abilities around for faster unlocks.

Rangor

Not that hard if you know math.

Xer

It's less math, and more a desire to actually solve problems of that nature I think. I dunno, my view on Math is very biased and skewed so it doesn't matter anyways (like it ever did because I'm only CR 3 ) <.<

Tvistor

Foozle maths.

Iocun

Daslin said:

But anyways, to speak on the idea of it. It's dumb. You can't legit look at someone's RL leg and see that if you flick it, it'll break. You only ever see when it is broken or a bone is sticking out of it. Srsly guise, let's keep a bit of realism in teh game!

In Achaea, we don't even see when someone's limb breaks though.

Tanris

My issue with completely accurate limb assess is that I like the mental component with fake applying and staying prone and applying. I find this a far more favourable test of ability between two combatants, as this is something far less viable to automate (as its situational and doing it in say, a raid would get you roflstomped). Admittedly you probably could automate it with toggles and whatnot, but its far more practical to do this yourself, which I thoroughly approve of (things that take an active input by the player are much reduced in today's Achaean combat. Anything which preserves that is awesome in my book).

If you could fully guarantee when limbs would break,  you'll be doing a good job of eliminating the intelligent but bad system/untanky people from the competition vs knights. I hate to actually complement him, but Vaehl is kind of smart for instance. He's also a total noob and incapable of staying on a char passed level 80, so any monk who successfully double broke him would probably ruin his day. I don't think its at all a bad thing that he could  psych someone out about their count to avoid that. Same goes for people who don't want to invest the time in coding a vivisect or damnation (teehee) defence or whatnot.

That said, losing your count against someone really determined to do this is a complete nightmare. Agree there needs to be something, but pinpoint accuracy on limb damage isn't the way to go, IMO.

Iocun

Yes, such an ability doesn't need to be completely accurate and infallible. And I'm definitely all in favour of making use of tricks like fake salve applications, illusions, rebound-resetting, and such - my own defence against limb-breakers leans strongly on those things. My issue is mainly twofold:

1. The initial hurdle of getting into limb-break combat that requires you figure out all sorts of breakpoints for various opponent health levels, depending on your weapons, stances, etc. (or buying a counter that handles it for you). I find that this constitutes pure tedium and isn't really a fun way of "practicing combat".

2. The way you can bring anti-limb-counting defence to the extreme with tactics such as pre-damaged limbs, artie wearing/removal (as I said, it might be illegal, but you'll get away with it if your opponent doesn't realize you're doing it), hitting your own limbs on the rebounding of bystanders (in which case you can't blame the limb-breaking fighter for simply not using rebounding), and so on. I'm actually not averse to any such tricks. I find it cool and clever if someone uses them. But in combination they can just get entirely too effective at obfuscating counts.

I realize that my classleaded suggestion is not fully developed and may not be an optimal solution, so I'd very much welcome alternative ideas.

Tvistor

Vaehl makes me laugh so he gets a pass.

Mishgul

an ability to assess limb damage would make vivisect/monk setups so absurdly easy. As it is, playing mind games with salves is amazing tactic wise.