Combat Logs

Hhaos

Dunn said:

Shut up, Mizik. No one likes you.

You leave my favorite fantasy alone!!!!!!

Evethir

Daeir said:

Evethir said:

Artied kai chokes are probably the most broken mechanic in raids and should probably get nerfed. 36% health damage, ignoring armour, etc every 2-3 seconds from anywhere within an area? Cool. Oh, holding breath stops it!!!  Not when you're getting hanged manned and disrupted with doppelgangers though.

Sure takes a lot of skill to go into a city and hold down one button.

Only 36%?

Maaan, you got it easy. I got angry at this the first time, but the counter for it is pretty easy when you learn how to position yourself a bit better. I think my rage is stowed away in this very thread, actually.

In all seriousness though, kai chokes really do need a nerf. No class should ever have that much focusing power without line of sight. Get three artied monks and an occultist and you can pretty much instant kill a lot of groups with minimal brain power just by entrenching.

Jacen

On the contrary, Mr. Forum Alt, I think that three people playing ranged classes with a not insignificant monetary investment and a tri transed class that's only avalable to two cities should be a serious force to deal with. Learn 2 throw orb and lol.

Xer

Uh... You could have 3 Occies and 10 Monks and with -just- ranged Hanged Man and Chokes, they wouldn't be able to kill me if I afked for hours >.> I'm not arguing that they aren't a potent force and that maybe they need a nerf, but you if you raid/ask around, you'll find out that Monk/Occie -shouldn't- be able to insta kill you. (Maybe I'm too used to Jhui's Gyrth choking me to death all the time )

Iocun

Well, yeah, three artied monks and an occultist are an awesome combination for ranged combat. Yes, they will kill lots of people if the other party doesn't have a composition good for fighting ranged and still stays ranged. Just as much as a group of serpents and necromancers (and perhaps a dragon, why not) will kill lots of people in line of sight if the other party isn't as good at line of sight and stays in line of sight. And as much as a group of blademasters, occultists and, say, a magi will be super deadly in melee.

There are quite a few really strong compositions of classes for specific situations. That's why you try to avoid fighting on your opponent's terms if they are particularly good at one particular thing.

Evethir

Iocun said:

Well, yeah, three artied monks and an occultist are an awesome combination for ranged combat. Yes, they will kill lots of people if the other party doesn't have a composition good for fighting ranged and still stays ranged. Just as much as a group of serpents and necromancers (and perhaps a dragon, why not) will kill lots of people in line of sight if the other party isn't as good at line of sight and stays in line of sight. And as much as a group of blademasters, occultists and, say, a magi will be super deadly in melee.

There are quite a few really strong compositions of classes for specific situations. That's why you try to avoid fighting on your opponent's terms if they are particularly good at one particular thing.

Easier said than done. Entrenching is extremely easy to do in cities and being able to take out half the defense group even before they reach the raiding group just by holding down one button is very OP.

Even in melee(when someone won't be holding breath because of being off-balance), kai chokes don't require someone to be prone and still do the same amount as possibly a low-strength disembowel every two-three seconds. Have three monks doing that in two seconds and that's 100% of your health instantly gone.

Yeah what Terra said, you won't have a knight dsling for 36-40% of your health every 2 to 3 seconds.

Mishgul

In honour of anchorman 2, Tridents should instantkill anyone who is mounted.

Iocun

Evethir said:

Iocun said:

Well, yeah, three artied monks and an occultist are an awesome combination for ranged combat. Yes, they will kill lots of people if the other party doesn't have a composition good for fighting ranged and still stays ranged. Just as much as a group of serpents and necromancers (and perhaps a dragon, why not) will kill lots of people in line of sight if the other party isn't as good at line of sight and stays in line of sight. And as much as a group of blademasters, occultists and, say, a magi will be super deadly in melee.

There are quite a few really strong compositions of classes for specific situations. That's why you try to avoid fighting on your opponent's terms if they are particularly good at one particular thing.

Easier said than done. Entrenching is extremely easy to do in cities and being able to take out half the defense group even before they reach the raiding group just by holding down one button is very OP.

Even in melee(when someone won't be holding breath because of being off-balance), kai chokes don't require someone to be prone and still do the same amount as possibly a low-strength disembowel every two-three seconds. Have three monks doing that in two seconds and that's ~100% of your health instantly gone.

If you can't turn the situation to your advantage at all, retreat. Not every fight must be won, or even fought.

Terra

Your enhanced senses inform you that Xer has entered Abyssal Avenue nearby.
4118h, 3571m, 19490e, 16742w cexkdb-
The door leading up is opened from the other side.
4118h, 3556m, 19490e, 16742w cexkdb-
Xer arrives from the up.
Your enhanced senses inform you that Xer has entered Circle of Damnation nearby.
The door to the up slams shut.
4118h, 3556m, 19490e, 16742w cexkdb-
Xer takes a drink from an oaken vial.
4118h, 3412m, 19490e, 16714w cexkdb-
UNDEF anti-weapon field
You weave fire and air together to transfix Xer, but succeed only in curing his blindness.
4118h, 3212m, 19490e, 16694w cxkdb-
You take a long drag off your pipe.
4118h, 3212m, 19490e, 16694w cxkdb-
SIP Sipped
OFFBAL elixir
4118h, 3816m, 19490e, 16694w cxkdb-
You must regain equilibrium first.
4118h, 3816m, 19490e, 16694w cxkdb-
Xer eats an arsenic pellet.
4118h, 3816m, 19490e, 16694w cxkdb-
4118h, 3869m, 19490e, 16694w cxkdb-
Xer eats a potash crystal.
4118h, 3869m, 19490e, 16694w cxkdb-
Xer clenches his fists and grits his teeth.
4118h, 3869m, 19490e, 16694w cxkdb-
Xer eats a plumbum flake.
4118h, 3869m, 19490e, 16700w cxkdb-
Circle of Damnation.
A large passage has been hacked out of the solid rock of the mountain. The rough ceiling
has wide metal struts running across it as reinforcement for the vast weight bearing down
on it. Glass globes containing the light creating insects have been placed in recesses
built specifically for this task. An obsidian eye sigil is here. A runic totem is planted
solidly in the ground. Lying flat on the ground is a key-shaped sigil. A small forest of
sharpened crystals protrudes from the ground. A sonic portal, edges vibrating madly, is
here.  Father Xer, Messiah of the Damned is here. He wields a blackened cavalry shield
with ivory accents in his right hand.
You see exits leading northeast, southwest, and up (closed door).
4118h, 3869m, 19490e, 16700w cxkdb-
Xer leaves to the southwest.
Your enhanced senses inform you that Xer has entered A mosaic of crossed swords nearby.
4118h, 3720m, 19490e, 16674w cxkdb-
Your enhanced senses inform you that Olias has entered Abyssal Avenue nearby.
4118h, 3720m, 19490e, 16674w cxkdb-
You have recovered equilibrium.
4118h, 3720m, 19490e, 16674w cexkdb-
The door leading up is opened from the other side.
4118h, 3720m, 19490e, 16674w cexkdb-
Your enhanced senses inform you that Olias has entered Circle of Damnation nearby.
The door to the up slams shut.
4118h, 3720m, 19490e, 16674w cexkdb-
Your enhanced senses inform you that Olias has entered A mosaic of crossed swords nearby.
4118h, 3720m, 19490e, 16674w cexkdb-
ONDEF shield
4118h, 3720m, 19490e, 16674w cxkdb-
ONBAL elixir
4118h, 3720m, 19490e, 16674w cxkdb-
Circle of Damnation.
A large passage has been hacked out of the solid rock of the mountain. The rough ceiling
has wide metal struts running across it as reinforcement for the vast weight bearing down
on it. Glass globes containing the light creating insects have been placed in recesses
built specifically for this task. An obsidian eye sigil is here. A runic totem is planted
solidly in the ground. Lying flat on the ground is a key-shaped sigil. A small forest of
sharpened crystals protrudes from the ground. A sonic portal, edges vibrating madly, is
here.
You see exits leading northeast, southwest, and up (closed door).
4118h, 3720m, 19490e, 16674w cxkdb-
A mosaic of crossed swords.
A runic totem is planted solidly in the ground. A countless number of contorted faces,
twisted limbs, and surging torsos have been captured here in a massive bloodsteel shrine
dedicated to Sartan. A sigil in the shape of a small, rectangular monolith is on the
ground. A broken hilt wrapped in black leather lies here, missing its blade.  Father Xer,
Messiah of the Damned is here. He wields a runed black recurve bow in both hands.
You can see no further.
4118h, 3720m, 19490e, 16680w cxkdb-
Crossing an iron bridge.
A runic totem is planted solidly in the ground. A sigil in the shape of a small,
rectangular monolith is on the ground.
You can see no further.
4118h, 3580m, 19490e, 16652w cxkdb-
Xer arrives from the southwest.
Your enhanced senses inform you that Xer has entered Circle of Damnation nearby.
4118h, 3580m, 19490e, 16652w cxkdb-
Xer casts a spell of erosion at you.
UNDEF shield (erode)
4118h, 3580m, 19490e, 16652w cxkdb-
Your soul burns as, at the behest of Xenomorph, the power of Sartan sears it. - Oww
2072h, 3580m, 19490e, 16652w cxkdb-
SIP Sipped
OFFBAL elixir
2635h, 3565m, 19490e, 16652w cxkdb-
You must regain equilibrium first.
2635h, 3565m, 19490e, 16652w cxkdb-
You have recovered equilibrium.
2635h, 3565m, 19490e, 16652w cexkdb-
You already possess equilibrium.
2635h, 3565m, 19490e, 16652w cexkdb-
You feel an aura of rebounding surround you.
2635h, 3565m, 19490e, 16652w cexkdb-
I see no "monolith" to take.
2840h, 3758m, 19490e, 16658w cexkdb-
You step through a sonic portal.
Centre of Silverbright Square.

Terra

Iocun said:

Well, yeah, three artied monks and an occultist are an awesome combination for ranged combat. Yes, they will kill lots of people if the other party doesn't have a composition good for fighting ranged and still stays ranged. Just as much as a group of serpents and necromancers (and perhaps a dragon, why not) will kill lots of people in line of sight if the other party isn't as good at line of sight and stays in line of sight. And as much as a group of blademasters, occultists and, say, a magi will be super deadly in melee.

There are quite a few really strong compositions of classes for specific situations. That's why you try to avoid fighting on your opponent's terms if they are particularly good at one particular thing.

I don't really mind ranged choke; however, the fact that monks can choke for more damage than most no-prep melee attacks and under far more conditions (paralysed, prone, bound, etc.) makes them pretty ridiculous in melee, in addition to being good area attackers. Choke should be hinderable.

Penwize

Chokes are hinderable.  HOLD BREATH, or do nothing after you get choked.  Getting choked gives you the HOLD BREATH defense, meaning a thousand monks could choke you simultaneously and you would not die.

Jhui

I hate to agree, but proned artied-choke is a bit too powerful.  Unartied proned choke is a cool mechanic, though.

I will, however, say that I wish more classes had better proned/hindered attacking abilities.  At least a few more classes should have such options.

Priest/Apo can sap/cath/absolve.  Knights can battlecry/arc.  Bards can sing? I can't think of many other classes with prone attacks.

Xer

Making a highlight for that portal now. Thanks for making me make it Terra! Time to dampen your portals (and your spirits : D)

Iocun

The problem with choke being one of the few barely hinderable things is not that choke is barely hinderable, but that so few others things are. I find the OPness of some hindering methods much more troublesome than the OPness of choke.

Jhui

yep it'd be cool if a serpent could still bite while hindered, for instance.

I like hinder stopping a lot of the main abilities, but I think it'd be cool for classes to have a few options to attack with while hindered

Iocun

I wouldn't mind it if all forms of hindering required some sort of prep or came at a certain cost, but there are too many that are usable almost all the time at almost no cost.

Chryenth

I misread that as 'I wouldn't mind if the forums hindering required prep...'

It is definitely too late for me.

By which I mean I should be asleep.

Triak

Terra said:

Your enhanced senses inform you that Xer has entered Abyssal Avenue nearby.
4118h, 3571m, 19490e, 16742w cexkdb-
The door leading up is opened from the other side.
4118h, 3556m, 19490e, 16742w cexkdb-
Xer arrives from the up.
Your enhanced senses inform you that Xer has entered Circle of Damnation nearby.
The door to the up slams shut.
4118h, 3556m, 19490e, 16742w cexkdb-
Xer takes a drink from an oaken vial.
4118h, 3412m, 19490e, 16714w cexkdb-
UNDEF anti-weapon field
You weave fire and air together to transfix Xer, but succeed only in curing his blindness.
4118h, 3212m, 19490e, 16694w cxkdb-
You take a long drag off your pipe.
4118h, 3212m, 19490e, 16694w cxkdb-
SIP Sipped
OFFBAL elixir
4118h, 3816m, 19490e, 16694w cxkdb-
You must regain equilibrium first.
4118h, 3816m, 19490e, 16694w cxkdb-
Xer eats an arsenic pellet.
4118h, 3816m, 19490e, 16694w cxkdb-
4118h, 3869m, 19490e, 16694w cxkdb-
Xer eats a potash crystal.
4118h, 3869m, 19490e, 16694w cxkdb-
Xer clenches his fists and grits his teeth.
4118h, 3869m, 19490e, 16694w cxkdb-
Xer eats a plumbum flake.
4118h, 3869m, 19490e, 16700w cxkdb-
Circle of Damnation.
A large passage has been hacked out of the solid rock of the mountain. The rough ceiling
has wide metal struts running across it as reinforcement for the vast weight bearing down
on it. Glass globes containing the light creating insects have been placed in recesses
built specifically for this task. An obsidian eye sigil is here. A runic totem is planted
solidly in the ground. Lying flat on the ground is a key-shaped sigil. A small forest of
sharpened crystals protrudes from the ground. A sonic portal, edges vibrating madly, is
here.  Father Xer, Messiah of the Damned is here. He wields a blackened cavalry shield
with ivory accents in his right hand.
You see exits leading northeast, southwest, and up (closed door).
4118h, 3869m, 19490e, 16700w cxkdb-
Xer leaves to the southwest.
Your enhanced senses inform you that Xer has entered A mosaic of crossed swords nearby.
4118h, 3720m, 19490e, 16674w cxkdb-
Your enhanced senses inform you that Olias has entered Abyssal Avenue nearby.
4118h, 3720m, 19490e, 16674w cxkdb-
You have recovered equilibrium.
4118h, 3720m, 19490e, 16674w cexkdb-
The door leading up is opened from the other side.
4118h, 3720m, 19490e, 16674w cexkdb-
Your enhanced senses inform you that Olias has entered Circle of Damnation nearby.
The door to the up slams shut.
4118h, 3720m, 19490e, 16674w cexkdb-
Your enhanced senses inform you that Olias has entered A mosaic of crossed swords nearby.
4118h, 3720m, 19490e, 16674w cexkdb-
ONDEF shield
4118h, 3720m, 19490e, 16674w cxkdb-
ONBAL elixir
4118h, 3720m, 19490e, 16674w cxkdb-
Circle of Damnation.
A large passage has been hacked out of the solid rock of the mountain. The rough ceiling
has wide metal struts running across it as reinforcement for the vast weight bearing down
on it. Glass globes containing the light creating insects have been placed in recesses
built specifically for this task. An obsidian eye sigil is here. A runic totem is planted
solidly in the ground. Lying flat on the ground is a key-shaped sigil. A small forest of
sharpened crystals protrudes from the ground. A sonic portal, edges vibrating madly, is
here.
You see exits leading northeast, southwest, and up (closed door).
4118h, 3720m, 19490e, 16674w cxkdb-
A mosaic of crossed swords.
A runic totem is planted solidly in the ground. A countless number of contorted faces,
twisted limbs, and surging torsos have been captured here in a massive bloodsteel shrine
dedicated to Sartan. A sigil in the shape of a small, rectangular monolith is on the
ground. A broken hilt wrapped in black leather lies here, missing its blade.  Father Xer,
Messiah of the Damned is here. He wields a runed black recurve bow in both hands.
You can see no further.
4118h, 3720m, 19490e, 16680w cxkdb-
Crossing an iron bridge.
A runic totem is planted solidly in the ground. A sigil in the shape of a small,
rectangular monolith is on the ground.
You can see no further.
4118h, 3580m, 19490e, 16652w cxkdb-
Xer arrives from the southwest.
Your enhanced senses inform you that Xer has entered Circle of Damnation nearby.
4118h, 3580m, 19490e, 16652w cxkdb-
Xer casts a spell of erosion at you.
UNDEF shield (erode)
4118h, 3580m, 19490e, 16652w cxkdb-
Your soul burns as, at the behest of Xenomorph, the power of Sartan sears it. - Oww
2072h, 3580m, 19490e, 16652w cxkdb-
SIP Sipped
OFFBAL elixir
2635h, 3565m, 19490e, 16652w cxkdb-
You must regain equilibrium first.
2635h, 3565m, 19490e, 16652w cxkdb-
You have recovered equilibrium.
2635h, 3565m, 19490e, 16652w cexkdb-
You already possess equilibrium.
2635h, 3565m, 19490e, 16652w cexkdb-
You feel an aura of rebounding surround you.
2635h, 3565m, 19490e, 16652w cexkdb-
I see no "monolith" to take.
2840h, 3758m, 19490e, 16658w cexkdb-
You step through a sonic portal.
Centre of Silverbright Square.

Silas'd

Triak

Any kind of attack bunched up will most likely get you killed in most situations.  Even Cyrene with meteor spam.  Choke is only truely overpowered with the artifacts to back it up, which is said about -anything-.  You have to be careful when evaluating a skill by looking at its use by a small group of people.

By contrast soulspear + a few archers requires no arties or anything special and guarantees a kill.  The only 'defense' is not being in LOS.

Honestly I think the solution is giving more classes area abilities to interact.

Dunn

I'd like the opposite so we can all melee in peace, ty.

Achilles

Dunn said:

I'd like the opposite so we can all melee in peace, ty.

I agree, need to de-emphasize the incentive to get entrenched and sit as far away as possible from the other army.

Nemutaur

Just wait for the classleads to get to monks. Tecton already said some of the monk abilities would get looked at.

Triak

Of course I wouldn't mind more melee.  The problem is, area attacks have been in the game since it was created.  Not sure how taking away things like that would work.  It has been the sacred cow of raiding since Rukimoro had EF deathsquads in the Shallam subs.

Evethir

Triak said:

Any kind of attack bunched up will most likely get you killed in most situations.  Even Cyrene with meteor spam.  Choke is only truely overpowered with the artifacts to back it up, which is said about -anything-.  You have to be careful when evaluating a skill by looking at its use by a small group of people.

By contrast soulspear + a few archers requires no arties or anything special and guarantees a kill.  The only 'defense' is not being in LOS.

Honestly I think the solution is giving more classes area abilities to interact.

You can't compare 300 damage meteors with 40% kai chokes. No other class scales as well with artefacts for raiding except for maybe occultists and serpents. Even then, serpents need line of sight, monks can hit you from the opposite end of the city behind closed doors and icewalls. I'll take three artied monks over any other three artied classes any day.

Iocun

Serpents don't scale that greatly with artefacts for raiding, actually. The only thing that can improve snipe damage is artie bows, making the difference between the expected minimum (darkbow snipe) and the maximum (Lupine's) much smaller than the differences you get for abilities that are stat-dependent (and possibly further improvable with collar etc.).

The fact that you'd take three artied monks over any other three artied classes is relatively meaningless. Even if it was the most powerful setup, one has to be the most powerful. The question is not which one is most powerful, but whether it is too powerful.

Cahin

Unartied choke is still pretty powerful.  Just ask Aleni, who got massive xp and kills from the Bal'met event with I'm pretty sure just mentality vials.

Xer

I have to quantify that with soulspears and and a large number of font stacks, but unartied choke still does a fair bit, mmm.

Iocun

Sure, but having a powerful choke without arties requires you to be int-specced, which makes your tekura suffer in turn.

Mizik

Assuming artefacts, - Int.

Yes, Choke is the best whatever.

Batang

I'm gonna be pissed if I JUST switched to monk, and choke gets nerfed

Cant wait for my first D-Bomb kill