Combat Logs

Achilles

dry gut would be ok.  Gut does 163 more damage (much more than that) than rend.

Rangor

Wish my thornspray did 3.5k single target damage too. 

oh, and with an aeon effect and strip shield/barrier.

Zeon

To be fair, your thornspray can hit 20 people at once and doesn't require a corpse of someone that didn't die to thornspray in the past.

*hides*

Achilles

Well the one bright side is now that some other faction gets to get pummeled by truenames maybe it will get push to the front of things that need to be fixed (also pit).  Looking forward to a way to remove truenames and some kind of truename aura so it can't be chained.

Otherwise things like this happen.

http://pastebin.com/xdWxW5aC

Kresslack

Achilles said:

Well the one bright side is now that some other faction gets to get pummeled by truenames maybe it will get push to the front of things that need to be fixed (also pit).  Looking forward to a way to remove truenames and some kind of truename aura so it can't be chained.

Otherwise things like this happen.

http://pastebin.com/xdWxW5aC

If they have the truenames, which require getting the corpse to begin with, why should there be such a restriction on it? If and aura type cooldown is added, they're still going to use the truename to get you down to about half or lower, and you still die. This is more human...it's quick.

Achilles

Collecting a truename is fairly easy in group fights, on top of which collecting a truename doesn't even destroy the body (which was a even bigger issue before bodies essence values were drastically reduced).  

Kresslack

Collecting a soulspear doesn't destroy a body either iirc. Those are also easy to get in group fights, and can also be stored up and used consecutively. 

Rangor

I like how truename gives the people winning group fights, even more firepower against those who keep dying. /sarcasm

And someone tell Draekar to stop dragoncursing like a newb, and start using enmesh, storm, rend and bite.

Achilles

I was told in another discussion recently that soulspear does destroy the body. Also truenames dont decay or expire, the only limitation is EACH Occultist can only have 3 trunames on one person.

Kresslack

I don't recall a body ever being destroyed from a soulspear being collected, unless they changed it from when I was in Mhaldor. Just a fine white mist raising from the body and forming into a spear. Also, you guys have piety, so it's not as if that doesn't get a lot of us killed during skirmishes or raids.

Antidas

soulspear does destroy the body.

Cooper

There have been fights/raids where I've been truenamed 3-4 times in a row (I don't think I ever took 5). Truename by itself (as in just truename, no ents, no one else hitting you) is powerful but it won't kill you. But the second you add in pretty much anything else you're screwed.

Hayte

Soulspear has destroyed the body for like 300 years

Zeon

Occultists can only have up to three truenames of a given person at a time? When did that happen? 

Sena

Zeon said:

Occultists can only have up to three truenames of a given person at a time? When did that happen? 

March 7, 2011.

Zeon

thanks :O

Tanris

 

Tanris

Soulspear destroys the body which is its downside. Its upside is the spear can be used on anyone.

I think Rangor's trolling that thornspray is less op than truename, so I'll grin and take that one.

Multiple people chain truenaming is dumb and should be looked into. One person training truenames sucks but isn't much worse than a monk machinegun enfeebling, you're probably done for if they have a clue.

Unfortunately Eleusis don't do the whole forum complain until the other side gets nerfed for the most part, so we'll continue to truename and perma disrupt each other with trumpet for quite some time yet, I suspect! (Although - thornspray. That nonsense makes me the moment it starts.)

Truenames are capped at 50 total and 3 per person. Sorry .

 

Tvistor

At this point Sena could tell me I've had my birthday wrong this whole time and I'd believe it.

Also are Ashtan and Eleusis fighting now?

Achilles

Tvistor said:

At this point Sena could tell me I've had my birthday wrong this whole time and I'd believe it.

Also are Ashtan and Eleusis fighting now?

Yes, they are both vying for your love and affection.

Tanris

Eleusis even raided us, was heartwrenchingly awesome.

Achilles

Tanris said:

One person training truenames sucks but isn't much worse than a monk machinegun enfeebling, you're probably done for if they have a clue.

 

It's actually far worse, when enfeebled you can still sip and eat moss/potash immediately (which would get you back to about 80%), you have to wait a second or more to do the same after being truenamed because you have to cure aeon first.  Also truename serves like incinerate if the victim is below 50% (or 60% for you) of their max health whilst enfeeble is half of your current health.  For the sake of balance there needs to be a viable way to get rid of truenames (or at minimum truenames can only be collected by the killer).

Tanris

You do realise there are already ways to get rid of truenames someone has on you, right

Also no, your arguments not entirely true. If someone enfeebles you, you'll sip/moss. Then they enfeeble you again and you are on 25% health off of moss/sip balance. Very similar situations when equilibrium times are taken into consideration. Obviously truename has the substantial advantage that it can actually kill you,

Tanris

So it doesn't look like you can edit posts without a mouse, ignore the above one. I decided to actually right a proper post.

Actually, you're making some pretty sweeping assumptions.
1. You get enfeebled.
2. You sip/moss.
3. You get enfeebled 2 seconds later (this is assuming you were on sip/moss balance at the start of the first enfeeble).
4. You are off of sip/moss balance and on critically low health/mana.

I really didn't want to have this argument again, but allow me to elucidate some points.

Your comparrison to incinerate is actually very apt. Truename functions very similar to incinerate (although non min maxed race specs require around 46% health not 50, but let's not be picky). It just has the unfortunate downside that it is an incinerate that you can only use once you have already killed the person once, assuming noone else has truenamed them since they have last died.

If we can agree (I think we can) that chain truename from multiple people needs addressing, that religates truename to two uses:
1. A finisher, as above.
2. A significant burst damage prepping for a kill.

In the first case all other instakills are superior as they are not finite (if anyone suggests summon flame or angel power are finite resources, I will graceously bow out). In the second case the closest comparrison to truename is enfeeble (similar damage, goes through shield, but no aeon). Truename is clearly superior for this purpose, and should be, as it is finite (unless you are Cooper, Tecton made me have infinite truenames of him).

If you would prefer to say replace truename with a percentage based instakill to remove the second use and religate truename specifically to the realms of a finisher, I thoroughly approve. Claiming you however should be able to negate an already limited resource is a purely foolish suggestion, if for no other reason than it would require every faction had access to it (after all, imbalances must be addressed across every faction. Something can not simply be made balanced against one and unstoppable against others, that just wouldn't be rites).

Tanris

Quick amendment: apparently my timings on kai aura are wrong, its a bit longer than I thought. Point stands, assuming you will be on sip/moss balance right after an enfeeble in melee is simply unreallistic.

Delphinus

Summon flame isn't finite, but the windup means that it's pretty situational. You're more or less committed to no-reflexes maul/incin.

I'm not sure if that's at all relevant to truename, but I just wanted to point it out.

Tanris

I don't really consider it as such. It does put the druid/sent at an inconvenience, but doesn't limit how many times it can be used. If there's a situation it would be advantage to incinerate in for instance, you can always be sure that you can take steps (go wyvern) to have access to it for that engagement.

Achilles

Not up to your usual standards Tanris, you are missing a number of points.

1) The aeon truename afflicts with gives the group a substantial window to hit the truenamed with practically anything.  Can't walk out of the room, can't earring, can't do anything besides pray the other side screws up somehow or an ally can aura/hands before you die

2) The enfeeble aura actually is a negative (otherwise a Priest would immediately absolve the enfeebled) hence why its not used as much in group fights

3) Incinerate requires the druid/sentinel to be in Wyvern, truename doesn't require the Occultist to sacrifice any of their usual utility.  On top of that incinerate is only a instant kill if below 50%, if done before then its only does 25% at most.

4) There should be a way to remove truename (besides forcing them to truename you, if that's your idea), it should be a skill you want/have to use quickly, not stockpile for some rainy day so you can knockout a target within 1 second.

Sohl

1) The window is one second plus latency, hardly a "substantial" amount unless you mess up your own curing.

2) It's still possible to enfeeble, choke, enfeeble, resulting in the same thing. In this particular scenario, aura doesn't help.

3) There are tradeoffs and benefits to incinerate versus truename. I don't think anyone on Team Green would argue that incinerate is underpowered in any way.

4) So you want an additional way to remove truename, besides the already incredibly useful devo force? In order for a group of occies to kill you in one second, they'd either have to a) be three of them, all with truenames of you, all using it within the one second window of someone smoking elm, b) at least two occies with two truenames a piece, which provides an even much longer window to heal/escape.

As Tanris has already stated, chained truenames is something that should be looked into. The nerfs you propose are disproportional to the problem, however; if you want to go down that route, I'll happily start laying into the things Team Blue has that are unbalanced, the only hard part will be choosing where to start.

Tanris

Ok, since you were kind enough to make a list, I'll address them point by point.

1. The aeon truename affliction gives the group one (1) second. That is a substantial window, certainly. Almost a quarter of a sip balance actually. If I have an enfeebler I would almost always rather enfeeble over truename, because the affects almost exactly the same in a coordinated group and the cost is minimal by comparrison.

2. Enf/abs was removed because it was 100% unbeatable. It was the equivalent of me having two occultists round the clock with infinite truenames of everyone in the game and triggering our truenames off a pt call. You could not survive it (again, highlights the issue with multiple chained truenames). It was also not hinderable (can do both things while transfixed and such). Saying however that that detracts from the outstanding power of enfeeble is laughable. If you are absolving, there are certainly better ways to go about it. But personally I'm pretty sure I'll take halving a persons health over most mana based strategies, simply because its straight forward.

3. Sure, covered that above. Its a downside to incinerate, but again, if you want to see something similar done with truename and given incinerate equivalence in terms of functionality and limitations, I would 100% back it.

4. Why. Why should an ability based on first killing the person (making it likely they won't come back again) necessitate being used quickly. In my opinion, I would suspect the majority of people would take the doll approach: "oh he has a doll on me now, best avoid conflict for an hour". We both know that's 100% what would happen, too. Truename has around a four second equilibrium, by the by.