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Achaea has become soft.

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  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIMember Posts: 3,323 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I was a crappy thief, but when I did manage to get something, as long as the person didn't fly off the handle and immediately issue or hire on me, I'd always give them a chance to get their stuff back, everything, no nominal fees or finder's fees or anything.

    Someone mentioned piracy here too, and the following statement encompasses it as well. There are more rewarding things than stealing everything that isn't bolted down or strapped on. I told ship owners to tell me a joke, or do some other entertaining thing and I'd doff my hat and be on my way. There were other times where we got into intense political or theological discussions which left me satisfied enough to go away.

    Bringing back old theft is a stupid idea because only about 1% of the playerbase can show enough restraint to try and make theft fun for all parties involved, rather than just seeming griefy.

    My site will remain up, but will not be maintained. The repository will continue to have scripts added to it if I decide to play another game. Maybe I'll see you around in Starmourn!
    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

    Delphinus
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited April 2013
    I am so torn.

    I liked the OP so much before it suddenly and without warning conflated a sense of danger with the old and terrible theft system.

    For one, I hate you for starting the theft argument again.

    For another, it reflects a serious lack of understanding as to what has actually created most of the feeling of safety.

    As has been said over and over, the thing that has created this feeling of safety is a progressive reduction in meaningful consequences to actions. It's not clear how we get that back. My personal feeling is that a driving force behind that is codification at the expense of interaction. Hierarchies of authority and requirements have calcified to the point where they have supplanted player interaction and situational judgement in many parts of the game, leading to more-or-less scripted conversations and completely predictable actions and consequences for almost all actions below the highest tiers of org leadership. We are slowly but surely turned the game into a Skinner box ("Do A, get B reward. Do C, receive D punishment.") while the fact that it could avoid that pitfall was ever one of its greatest strengths. And I fear we're doing it without knowing that we're doing it.

    Having a law for everything and just following the letter of that law may be more "fair", but it is decidedly less fun.
    SylvancePrytheFriztic
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    (Edit: Putting this in a separate post because I am so smugly self-satisfied with the main point of the other one, but I am also weak of will and easily baited into arguing about theft.)

    To wade dangerously into the theft debate yet again: Old theft was awful because people could lose irreplaceable objects with no means to get them back (and all of the systems proposed to allow getting them back were overly complicated and/or complete hacks from an IC standpoint).

    The problem with new theft is that it swings too far in the other direction. Losing large sums of gold was not a significant problem. Other items still had a problem even with so many defences because there was always a way around them (getting DCd means your triggers don't work for instance). Gold doesn't have that problem: banks offer effectively perfect protection. Gold can also be re-earned perhaps more easily than any other item.

    There is a really simple solution to this and it comes in three steps:
    (1) Delete selfishness. It's a relic of a bygone age. It's obnoxious for people in a world where theft was already relatively rare and where pickpocketing is even more rare. It's weird for the rules since stripping any other defence during theft is illegal. Banks already provide perfect protection if people don't want to risk carrying around huge sacks of millions of gold (and there shouldn't be any expectation that players be able to carry so much gold safely without any cost).
    (2) Allow pickpocket to steal gold through containers (not keys/letters/etc since you can't bank those and that stills allows hypnosis-based theft to retain a certain legacy). All of the same logic as above. Let's also consider for a moment that the skill "pickpocket" is literally incapable of picking pockets right now.
    (3) Increase the percentage stolen with pickpocket.

    Boom. Limited sense of danger restored. Theft actually worth doing again. Defence against theft simplified for the average person (here's how you defend against theft: use a bank). Also consider that such simplification is good for newbies - teaching how to make antitheft triggers has always been really awkward in that it has to be done relatively early, there's no way to do it ICly, and newbies are usually just pasting things in without any idea what they're doing.

    Yes, the above is a buff to theft. That is very much the intention. It is not, however, as asymmetric as is assumed, which is I think part of the problem (part of why the pendulum swung so very far toward safety when the very real problems with the old system were addressed). The asymmetry is only evident when you fail to consider the full effects of theft in favour of thinking only about the IC transfer of property.

    If there is anything to be learned from this thread it is that things that are ICly "bad" for our own characters are often OOCly desirable and it's dangerous to conflate IC/OOC in these cases.

    Danger is definitionally bad from an IC perspective, but I would feel confident asserting that there isn't a single person who doesn't want some element of danger in the game (even if it's just social danger). This thread and the history of related complaints seem to suggest that what we want is more danger. Well, you don't get things for free. If you want more danger, you need more risk and asymmetric risk increases that danger substantially. From an OOC perspective, we are all paying (or potentially paying) IC gold to thieves in order to buy a feeling of danger. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
    SeftinAaricSylvanceVaehlShirszae
  • IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,506 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2013
    Tael said:
    Yes, the above is a buff to theft.
    It's not only a buff. It makes it far more powerful than old theft, turning victims into rather helpless grab bags for anyone who wants some gold from them. Theft shouldn't be such a one sided thing.

    "Use a bank" is simply not an adequate solution. Sure, it works for large amounts of gold, but it's not practical to keep all your gold there. Losing a bit of gold may not be a huge loss financially, but I still believe it's very wrong if thieves can take small amounts of gold without any work at all and without the victim being able to stop it at all. A well-defending victim should be able to thwart all ordinary theft attempts and only be possibly stealable from if a thief goes through great lengths to find a workable technique against him.

    Pickpocketing isn't incredibly underpowered. It's actually very close to being very powerful, but just doesn't quite manage to cross the line. It definitely needs some buffs, but a too major buff could easily turn it into something quite frustrating.

    The amount of stealable gold in one pickpocketing attempt definitely needs to be increased, of course.
    FrizticShirszae
  • SeldinSeldin Member Posts: 170 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 2013
    Silas said:
    The best thing to do would be to make pickpocketing an interesting mechanic
    I have an idea.

    ab survival selfishness
    Syntax: SELFISHNESS
            GENEROSITY

    With this ability, you may cause yourself to become so selfish that you can't give away a thing
    Exceptions to this are sigils and boomerangs.

    (Note emphasis) Stop selfishness from preventing pickpocket. Makes zero logical sense whatsoever.

    EDIT: Added extra emphasis.
    SylvanceDaeir
  • CobraCobra Member Posts: 55 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 2013
    Dear Achaeans,

      Listen to me when I say this, because I am one of the people that started this whole mess.  ANYTHING you do to the excess will cause a reaction on the other side.  If you pull to hard, I can almost guarantee you will break something else, long down the line.  You see, once people attach themselves to their characters and spend REAL money to buy things in game, they EXPECT a certain level of... administration.

      Some of you seem to be under the idea that, your actions are not effecting the very way this world is going to run.  See, I myself, have been robbed. (It sucks for sure.)  And have robbed others.  (Really fun stuff)  The problem is that instead of sucking it up and dealing with your own problems in game, people FEEL they are OWED something for their lose.
      
      Get this, I once had this awesome patio set, with these equally awesome candle holders (they were really cool)...One morning, my wife and I wake up to see our candle holders GONE?!?  What, someone TOOK them...I called each pawn shop thinking some crack head wanted to score a bump.  But no one had seen my candle holders...I called the POLICE..and they were like,  WHATEVER!....So here is the point.

      In REAL life, a GOOD thief hardly gets caught, a bad thief shows his arm tattoos on camera as he points HIS REGISTERed gun at a clerks face and writes, "Give me all your money." on the back of his telephone bill.

      My point is, Achaea is supposed to emulate real life to an extent, but once you BUY something...You feel entitled to that, and then when someone just walks by and takes it.  You want the SYSTEM to respond.

      Personally, thief is a tough class to have, if you are going to let them steal REAL things.  On the other hand, if they can only steal things you can buy in-game with in-game gold.  Then sh*t, have at it!

      The best part about Achaea, is this....If I log onto Achaea, ANYTHING could happen...Once you log in Achaea and sit in your private estate with not an ounce of ... adrenaline.  Whoa.  BORING!  A smart player will know exactly how to counter a thief.  A smart player will learn everyday how to be a better player.

      Is Achaea getting soft?  Well, as you invite, non-dedicated people to a dedicated environment.  Things will not mix. You will find people will take away your fun because they are just not on your level.  So here is my fix...

      We make sure, every single player that wants to role-play in Achaea, understands some simple PLAYER defined, code of conduct.  Sure sure, There are plenty already but, I am not coming to Achaea to sip fake text based teas with my text based buddies (even though it is fun). I am logging onto Achaea, because today, I might get robbed and what a great reason to go slay some people?  

      Seriously, I wish I could HUNT down those thugs that stole my candle holders (they were really cool and matched our patio set, perfectly) BUT the LAW won't allow me...So my point is this, stop whining, learn to keep your items and my GOD, it's only a GAME!  It's supposed to be fun.  

      When I think about killing you, my fun factor sky rockets!  When I think about listening in on one of your conversations, I am in heaven...when you die because I killed you...WHAT A RUSH!  Let's not forget this folks...

      If you are thinking Achaea is softer, it is because we let to many people...be afraid to play our game.  Come on.  Seriously, Achaea is for extreme gamers.  I don't care, if you feel the need to play Achaea or anything like it.  You are telling me something about your self.  "I am extreme!"

      Here are some examples..

      My guild, the Shadowsnakes, were SO strict with our in-guilding procedures that Sarapis himself told me to either, accept all new members or He was going to allow anyone to join any guild...Guess what happened...

      My guild, banned venom sales. Sarapis came to talk to me about it and guess what He said, if we do not lift the ban on venoms he was going to create a refilling shop and take the whole milking of venoms out of our hands...Guess what happened?

      We want to ROLE-PLAY!  It's in our blood, however, if we role play TO WELL we get things changed...Like this thief business.  You rob the wrong person, over and over, of their belongings and it is just a matter of time before the Divine change it.  You are wondering why right?  How could they?  Change it?  It's role-playing...right right.  It's also a business for someone else.  Keep this in mind.  It's also someones REAL business.  

      Let me tell you the number one ways to get yourself shrubbed.

      A. Tiff off a God. (BIG mistake) 

      B. Kill NEWBIES. (even BIGGER)

      But from a roleplay point of view this seems completely logical.  The best choice...Kill the young of the enemy, they won't want to ever come back and your enemy is left without new blood....HOWEVER, you just killed the very thing the Divine work so hard to achieve.  NEW PLAYERS.

      Why new players you ask?...it's pretty simple, just fiddle with an Achaea Credit.  Let it sink in.  If we role-play to well, they will take away that dynamic.  I hate the fact that ANYONE can envenom a weapon...BAN THE VENOMS...well..what if that makes people stop playing...No more ban.  Get it?

      So, instead of thinking, is Achaea getting soft? Maybe it's time to start helping new players become a bit more tougher.  Sugar coating your little fantasy for them is a bad idea.  Tell them, they will die, they will suffer, they will lose, and they will also take, they will also kill, they will also feel...adrenaline.  Once you understand that is where the fun is, I don't think people will complain as much.

      Just my two cents.  


    Sincerely Yours,


    Cobra 
    ShibumiDaeirMazoth
  • ShibumiShibumi Member Posts: 223 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I am a bad player, combat wise, due to huge RL commitments. I like computers but I am no coder. However, I managed to have decent anti theft triggers, and set up a curative triggers. After passing my House requirements, I decided to switch client and buy SVO, which I find amazing and preforms much faster compared to my previous coding efforts. I am now working on my combat triggers and aliases, and I managed to fight a little bit. Even if I am an avid SVO user, I perfectly know that I feel like cheating...but trust me, with a wife, two children, and highly committing job, it is no easy to keep the pace of the game. 

    I consider myself a decent gamer, role play wise, and I find Achaea full of possibilities to be exploited to the bone. There is nothing like Achaea, and I totally agree with @Cobra in saying that Achaea should be considered as an extreme gaming experience. It is for extreme players, and that's it. That's why I pointed out the huge success of Dark Souls in my previous posts. Dark Souls is being successful because it is hard. Therefore, an advertisment claiming Achaea as one of the most difficult game ever, will have a more intriguing than a discouraging effect. 

    I remember the adrenaline rushes in fights, in avoiding being robbed (and the subsequent great satisfaction). Even when I had to swear my loyalty to the House, my hart beat increased dramatically. I was like...What the hell? This is just a game! What is happening to me? I still do not know, but let me tell you, it was one of the experiences I will remember for all my life.

    It is just my opinion on the matter.
    Light prevails, always
    ShirszaeSultaniCobra
  • BatangBatang Member Posts: 195 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I still want to hear Matt's justification for the quote, and how things have become safer through out the years

    image

  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The disappointment from pickpocketing sucking so badly ultimately drove me from playing Daeir for any length of time.

    I made him to be a thief foremost, and when that was diluted down to spamming a skill on an afk person and praying they didn't have two 1 line reflexes that made the entire endeavour pointless, I started to question why I was wasting my time on a game with such poorly thought out mechanics.

    Mortal Online has theft system which works reasonably well, even though it is a 3d game and thus pears and oranges when compared to Achaea. In MO, thieves "snoop" a target's inventory first and have full access to it after 3-5 seconds, at which point they can use a "pilfering" skill which will attempt to take 1 "stack" of items (usually coins, stacks can be from 0 to 10000 items of the same type, coins are usually stacked in 0-100 depending on their type). If this succeeds fully, the thief gets the stack of items. If they partially suceed, the thief gets the stack of items and turns "grey" or becomes a "hidden criminal". Guards will auto-aggress to grey players for a while, while "hidden criminals" appear like normal players but if they are attacked or pushed in any way, become flagged as grey. If they are killed with stolen items on them, the player whom the items originally belong to may take them back. Other players may take them as well, but holding stolen items automatically flags players as "grey" and as such, they will auto-aggress to guards for a while as well.

    This works extremely well for two reasons. One, it allows for counterplay. Any thief acting suspiciously (entering rooms without any overt purpose, moving close to people for no reason, being stark naked) broadcasts their presence to a room of vigilant watchers and as such, an entire form of gameplay has grown around deliberately catching thieves in the act. Two, it is challenging for the thief to pull off successfully and as such, trollish "grinding" efforts to amass wealth usually don't work when theft requires planning beforehand to do successfully.

    I wish Achaea would think of adopting a similar system, though obviously adjusted to work with Achaea's mechanics. The unfortunate reality that a single pickpocket attempt will net you enemy status in a city means that you can have fun actively living out the life of a thief for maybe a day or two in a contextually relevant setting (cities), then you are relegated to picking on new players in Delos or the villages or simply hunting for afk people. Introducing a system where thieves may enter a city solely for the purpose of theft without drawing the overt attention of guards unless they are flagged as having recent theft attempts performed or something would do something towards making the game fun for thieves to play again, and would also provide ample opportunities for people to interact with and established player-run institutions for city antitheft rather than relying on guardstacks for protection.

    This likely won't ever happen because loltheft, but I dream about it sometimes.
    PrytheShirszae
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