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Achaea has become soft.

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  • DarrothDarroth Member Posts: 108 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Achaea definitely feels as if the corners are more padded these days. Not sure if it's a good or bad thing though.
    Batang
  • VayneVayne Rhode IslandMember Posts: 1,897 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I never got past the mine cart level in Battle Toads, and I NEVER will.
    image
    Alcinae
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,303 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Guys...focus.


    Sylvance
  • SultaniSultani Member Posts: 185 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    It was Ninja Turtles, Zelda II and Milon's Secret Castle for me..good god. I'd like to try those again.
  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    image
    Soon to be a relevant pic for the current discussion.

  • AntidasAntidas Member Posts: 1,497 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    eh, I suppose I should probably comment here. I dont think there's any argument about whether or not old theft was unbalanced and unfair. We all agree that it was, and was in need of change. I also wont argue that pickpocket can't be profitable. It certainly can, and I've made just as much gold from pickpocket as I did with the old theft. My problem with it is how absolutely boring and linear its mechanics are. I'm too lazy to actually find the links, but in the old theft threads there were some great ideas put forth by @Profit and some others as to how to balance the system without making it too boring. At the very least, I'd like to see pickpocket get a few buffs relating to the chance of taking items. I also know that @Tecton has (I think, again not going to look for the old threads to confirm, so feel free to correct me if im wrong) promised that the changes to theft weren't over and that they were working on something, but we have yet to see or hear anything about it. I'd love to hear from him or @Sarapis as to whether there's anything in the works currently or if its something that they plan to look at in the near future.

    Yue
  • AepasAepas Member Posts: 1,619 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2013
    I feel that the main problem with theft going away and having pickpocketing replace it was the lack of interaction it has brought. Now don't get me wrong, I like being able to idle in any room without wondering if I'm about to get snapped and have to instantly react, but it just shaves off a lot of the investment into the game. As a newbie, I remember having to make triggers and always be careful where I put my foot, in fear of being stolen from. Now, perhaps ten years ago it was different, I was younger, I felt terrified and awe-struck by the world that was achaea. Theft was THAT MUCH MORE to me. It was terrifying, scary, unknown, and as a little guy I loved every bit of it. I remember getting completely robbed twice, both AFK. (It took me a long time as a newbie to figure out QQ vs 'X' button).
    Now let's move to the future. Understanding the game to a very meta level, balances, systems, and even the forum-politics. Suddenly theft seems very unfair and there is a lot of bitching about it. I feel like if I was in my same newbie shoes today, I'd have never been stolen from. I'd have never gotten that HDF for it, I'd never have found out who will help me get my items back, and I'd never hear the long winded lectures about attention to detail. This was all a very important part to my characters development.

    So, I'm a minority. I honestly think the forums are the largest cancer to achaea, as it gives people a sense of entitlement. I have newbies these days going and bitching right at the forums, rather than trying to keep it all IC.

    The real problem I actually had with the rollover or change of theft, was the fact it was half assed and quite blatantly so. I'm not going to bother to pull up the post but we had Tecton giving us a very "Billy Mays here, and do you like theft? Me neither!" kind of speech. I really don't mind hearing the developers comments behind the choice to remove theft (Which once again I had to run to the forums to find the real reasons and statistics) but I found it very rude and offensive to attempt to rally people to your cause and convince people of this new "great" change while giving the finger to every serpent in existence. It was a bad change, did not feel thought out, and had several shoddy moves right before it (Phase door opening). This means the idea was under scrutiny for a long time, but it was not really brought up with the general populace at all, which I believe in a game where "WE" make the world, it should be.

    In the end, I'll say that theft is better off gone, however there are several things that it used to be used for. Serpents would sometimes have to steal back items from people who left/qq'd the guild or house, and kept items. This was theft used to RETURN valued goods. Some serpents were actually known as thieves. (I can only think of @Arelas right now) but they were so sly, witty, and even kind about their thefts, that it made sense for their RP. It was also a very large part of serpent RP. Even the SL were known for being "Spies, assassins, thieves" or something like that. There were facets to serpent RP that are utterly and completely gone now.

    I'll say that theft was ruined by a few very rude people, mainly glint and his kin. They are the ones that showed us that there is a true risk/reward that is completely in the thieves favor. I remember him heartstopping as I webbed him. So not only could I not get my items back. I couldn't even get some XP from his sorry bum. Suddenly, the game is broken. I'd like to see an advanced version of old theft come back. Like people becoming resistant to multiple action chains, or something like that. (Mind you, would have to be balanced for combat).

    So, I don't know where to stand. I know a lot of you will just say theft is unbalanced and shit, but remember what it was like as a newbie? Even though it was bad.. was it not fun? just a little bit? did the heartpounding, fingershaking goodness not come the first time someone tried to snap you?
    But, as I get older and end up being around the realms for well over 100+ days of pure playtime of my life.. it gets hard to justify why something expensive keeps getting slipped from my fingers.

    Edit: Also, I don't think it was theft ever causing bad player retention. I think a lot of it was.. from 2008-2012. Nothing happened. It was boring. Achaea was really, really boring. Or maybe that's just me.
    Replies the scorpion: "It's my nature..."
    ShirszaeShibumiBatang
  • ShibumiShibumi Member Posts: 223 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I got robbed a couple of times and got really upset. This is true, but I found now that it added flavor to the game. I wanted to take revenge on the thief but he changed alignment ex abrupto. Now I am really frustrated!
    Light prevails, always
  • AntidasAntidas Member Posts: 1,497 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2013
    :-<

    edit: @Shibumi

    SherazadShibumi
  • SherazadSherazad Planef UrthMember Posts: 956 @ - Epic Achaean
    Antidas said:
    :-<

    edit: @Shibumi
    You know, I was gonna post about you continuing to grief people even in Targossas. xD
    Bleh, work ate my gaming life.
    내가 제일 잘 나가!!!111!!1


    ShibumiAntidasSkye
  • ShibumiShibumi Member Posts: 223 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    That is why the game and its community are really awesome! By the way, is Mhaldor accepting any application? (Joking)
    Light prevails, always
  • LeyliahLeyliah Member Posts: 11 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    edited April 2013
    My first character I played in Achaea (after another person from another mud told me how epic it was) actually quit because of theft. This was back when the credit marked was around 2,000-2,500 gold per credit. I found out about ratting and started getting gold, and I did a lot of ratting because it was the only way for me to earn gold. Then, I lost everything to a thief, quit the game, and never logged in that character again.

    It took me four or five years before I decided to try out the game again, and that was only because the other muds I played had deteriorated to a point where there'd be 3-10 people online at the same time.
  • WysteriaWysteria Member Posts: 1,826 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I haven't had a successful theft go through once, then again, it was always Glint trying to steal stuff from me and it was so easy to run from him. Bit of a try hard when he'd baw about not getting my stuff (which was what? 4 vials and maybe a vagrant or two at the time).

    From what I've heard with other people and theft, there have been players who outright quit because of it (a certain long-named Magi with who shall not be named for example) and it does cause a bit of, "aw man, sorry to see you go" when you hear of it. Theft was good if you could do it right and be creative about it, but it is true that there was no way to get those items back but really, that was why Houses had such intricate anti-theft methods set up to avoid such issues.

    The system now pretty much has be walking around with selfishness down because not many people will bother to nick my (now 40) vials or (other than vagrants) corpses. It's a bit meh, but there are other forms of conflict to be had, so I don't miss much of it.
    "Faded away like the stars in the morning,
     Losing their light in the glorious sun,
     Thus would we pass from this earth and its toiling,
     Only remembered for what we have done."

  • TrevizeTrevize Member Posts: 1,517 @ - Epic Achaean
    Sultani said:
    It was Ninja Turtles, Zelda II and Milon's Secret Castle for me..good god. I'd like to try those again.
    Ugh. That game is easy now, but I will always hate it.
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  • TrevizeTrevize Member Posts: 1,517 @ - Epic Achaean
    Darroth said:
    Achaea definitely feels as if the corners are more padded these days. Not sure if it's a good or bad thing though.
    The whole room is padded. The paint that made it look like a real room is starting to wear thin in the corners.
    Current scripts: GoldTracker 1.2, mData 1.1
    Site: https://github.com/trevize-achaea/scripts/releases
    Thread: http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/4064/trevizes-scripts
    Latest update: 9/26/2015 better character name handling in GoldTracker, separation of script and settings, addition of gold report and gold distribute aliases.
    BatangShibumi
  • VansittartVansittart Member Posts: 232 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Silvarien said:
    Wonderful quotes are not as good as wonderful statistics. @Tecton said in a thread that he analyzed data regarding theft victims' behavior, like 12-13% quit Achaea outright after being robbed (not coming back on ANY character) and another like 55% substantially reduced their playing time. Tecton concluded this was not good for player retention.

    We do not have enough players as it is, the last thing we need is to lose them over something like this. And, let's face it, most thieves are not really nice people, having someone rob you of like 300 cr worth of non-decay personal items and then start being a rules lawyer to you about how you're not IC enough for him or how you actually don't have cause on him... yeah.

    I always felt theft was a horrible thing, and I was glad when they removed it. And many other people were too.


    My thoughts on this are complex, evolving and ranty; so I'll spare you them (for the time being).  But I did want to chime in on this.  Statistics can be as misleading, and misused, as anecdotal data - more so sometimes, because they inherently have a veneer of mathematical authority.

    I was always very sceptical about the statistics you reference, because there was no comparison against a set of people of similar level/experience who were not robbed from.  Without that, you can't even argue causation - just correlation.  Which isn't nothing, but it isn't very much of something either.

    I would like to know how much newbie retention has improved since the deletion of theft.  I would like to know whether the number of dormancies of active players has increased, slowed down or remained the same.  I think I know the answers to these questions, and I think the answer is that the removal of theft has had zero effect at all.  The same trends that were in evidence during theft's existence are in evidence now without any demonstrable change (as far as I can tell anyway - @Tecton, @Sarapis, please fee free to correct that misunderstanding).

    SylvanceShirszaeRheve
  • RinzaiRinzai Member Posts: 178 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    Silvarien said:
    The numbers don't lie!
    I want all the numbers!
    To address these to points there are so many factors to even pretend to make a fair comparison. Look at all that has happened in the realms, losing theft I am sure has retained some people and has also probably lost some people. I would like to think killing off a series of gods also does that, but I also think the amazing support staff keeps people around.  Bottom line is are there more people, or less, and make moves to retain more people.

    As for theft, it was stupid before, there were some thieves you could work with and talk to and actually RP, and there was other people that just didn't care and hided behind the "you should know better it's mine all mine"

    As for Achaea being soft, the relaxed PK rules make me think this is not entirely true, people who want conflict find it, and people that don't are shielded a little more from it.

    Sylvance
  • NakariNakari Member Posts: 596 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    thought pickpocketing was terribad->got lazy with my antitheft and going ask->lost all my gold. Twice.

    ^my personal experiences with the new theft system.

     I have since, of course, fixed my errors, but heck, if you made good triggers you could make yourself very resilient to theft even in the old system, which is why it mostly jet sucked for newbies. 

  • DontarionDontarion Member Posts: 154 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Being a thief that didn't steal from people outside of newbiedom people was difficult.  Everyone had selfishness and triggers.  I realized though that the amounts gained from taking my time, watching high-level people, and then hitting them was far higher gains then the other thieves hitting newbies constantly.

    To address some of the complaints: Often times people would say they were disconnected (which some may have been but many were just AFK since their triggers were firing).  This is why I rarely ever allowed this to work on me because so many would take advantage of it.

    I do think old theft was ridiculous -- I purchased quite a bit of artefacts using theft-gained gold.  It was hard for the thief a long time ago (when I was age 70 in the game, so 6 years ago or so) but then things got easier and we weren't hunted as hard.  I think the change was because cities like Ashtan started defending their thieves when they'd get attacked and people like Glint would just heartstop/die.  Veils also helped me after I got enough gold stolen but I still think it's a big game imbalance and this was far after I realized thief hunters died down.

    Current theft is even a great problem but only to the people that would have been devastated by old theft: AFK and or disconnected.  The only difference is it takes longer.

    Is the game safer?  For newbies yes, but Achaea is a business, and other then theft I don't think things have changed that much to be considered padded.
    -----------------------------
    @DontarionDrakor for twitter boredom.


    Saibel
  • VansittartVansittart Member Posts: 232 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Rinzai said:

    Silvarien said:
    The numbers don't lie!
    I want all the numbers!
    To address these to points there are so many factors to even pretend to make a fair comparison. Look at all that has happened in the realms, losing theft I am sure has retained some people and has also probably lost some people. I would like to think killing off a series of gods also does that, but I also think the amazing support staff keeps people around.  Bottom line is are there more people, or less, and make moves to retain more people.

    Well, hang on there.  That is actually an argument that any statistical analysis of what encourages player retention/loss is pointless because you won't be able to isolate any causative effect.  Now, I don't think I buy that argument but even if I did, it would support my post which was based on the fact that we shouldn't pay any (or very limited) heed to the statistics quoted in favour of deleting theft.

    The rest of your post then assumed your argument instead of making it (i.e. that deleting theft brought more players in/helped with player retention).  There are qualitative arguments on both sides there for sure, which I'm trying to avoid getting into, but you don't make any.

  • YueYue Member Posts: 290 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Pretty sure Dark Souls is good because it's well-made, not because it's hard.
    Pretty sure you are completely wrong. It is reasonably well made. It is also much more difficult than most games of similar nature. If you disagree, please support your claim with evidence...


    Sylvance
  • BatangBatang Member Posts: 195 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Yue said:
    Pretty sure Dark Souls is good because it's well-made, not because it's hard.
    Pretty sure you are completely wrong. It is reasonably well made. It is also much more difficult than most games of similar nature. If you disagree, please support your claim with evidence...


    Screw Blight Town

    image

    YueShirszaeAntidasShibumi
  • LeyliahLeyliah Member Posts: 11 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    edited April 2013
    Yue said:

    Pretty sure you are completely wrong. It is reasonably well made. It is also much more difficult than most games of similar nature. If you disagree, please support your claim with evidence...
    You shouldn't really make arbitrary statements (i.e saying another person is completely wrong) and ask them to provide evidence in support of their claim, when you have not given any evidence to support your own argument (that the game is much more difficult than most games of similar nature). Well, I guess you can if you want. It just seems a bit... weird.
  • YueYue Member Posts: 290 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 2013
    Leyliah said:
    Yue said:

    Pretty sure you are completely wrong. It is reasonably well made. It is also much more difficult than most games of similar nature. If you disagree, please support your claim with evidence...
    You shouldn't really make arbitrary statements (i.e saying another person is completely wrong) and ask them to provide evidence in support of their claim, when you have not given any evidence to support your own argument (that the game is much more difficult than most games of similar nature). Well, I guess you can if you want. It just seems a bit... weird.
    Yeah. That was intentional. I made a statement that demonstrates the very idea I am stating.

    The difference is my statement is very easy to back up - a quick search of "Dark Souls" on Google will return a plethora of reviews, discussions, and comments that support my claim ("It is difficult, and that makes it enjoyable.") You could call it the 'norm' for people to consider the game to be above-average in difficulty. Whereas, reviews, comments, and discussions along the lines of 'Dark Souls is very easy' are much less common. My statement wasn't 'arbitrary', it was grounded in personal experience and research. Blu's statement ("Pretty sure Dark Souls is good because it is well made, not because it is hard.") is much more 'arbitrary', the way she made it. (With no support for said claim given.)
  • ShibumiShibumi Member Posts: 223 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Leyliah DS difficulty is a brand of the franchise. Actually, the fans are concerned about the sequel as they want it to be as difficult as the first episode. It is widely known.
    Light prevails, always
    Shirszae
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