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Artefact Packages

AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,638Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
This is something that I've been thinking about for a while. Often, when we hear complaints about Achaea/IRE model, it's centered around pricing of items and pricing of credits directly. For instance, if you want a level 1 sip ring, con belt, bracelet and regen ring - that's going to set you back 1550 credits (~$475) for the basic of the basic defensive items. I understand that these things are priced "fairly" by IRE standards, but let's just be honest: they're not. $475 is double my car payment, or a PS4 with 3 entire games, or a multitude of other things that you can spend equivalent money on. I could book a round trip cruise from Galveston, TX to the Carribean for 1 person for $460.75 (I just checked through Carnival). I'm all for IRE making as much money as possible, but at the same time, I think some common sense needs to be applied if we intend to continue maintaining success further than 2019-2020.

The last time prices were adjusted, unless I'm mistaken, was ~3 years ago, judging by Announce 4290. While some artefacts were reduced in price, credit prices weren't changed. On top of that, the artefacts that were reduced arguably were items that don't have high use to begin with. None of the defensive items were reduced, with the only thing on the list that I even own being the Greaves and Lifevision - and I'm by no means a poor person in Achaean credits investment terms. SoA and Diadem (high use) were raised in price.

As we move into the future, with artefact creep, it's simply going to become untenable for new players to reasonably catch up - if it isn't already. Talismans have been introduced that are widening this gap, though a lot of effort is going into balancing these things so that they don't have massive implications. I don't believe a $7,00-$10,000 investment should be required to play the game at a high level. At the same time, I don't think a $1,000 investment should be required to play the game at a base level.

Assuming Tri-Trans, Trans Miniskills, Trans Survival, Trans Avoidance, Trans Vision, L1 Bracelet, L1 Sip, L1 Regen, L1 Con Belt (This is what I would consider the basic of the basic setup for anyone, and anyone that knows anything about the game would suggest this as a "goal to work towards") - you're looking at roughly 3000 credits, or $1,000 (factoring in the no brainer purchases, and the lesson conversion bonus new players get, lessons and credits received for leveling to 80). That's before adding an SoA, Riding, any niche things like Seafaring/Tradeskills etc. So, I think this is a fair estimate for a 'base' investment for a character that intends to have any sort of success across the spectrum of the game - hunting, combat, etc. It was brought up that all Miniskills aren't necessarily a base requirement, which is true. The reason I am including this is that, as I said earlier, artie creep means you have a magnitude more people walking around with full offensive output - so conversely, it stands to reason that, you will want to maximize your defense for the cheapest possible cost. Miniskills offer a nice reduction for a cheaper cost as compared to something like the Ring of Magus, etc. You're welcome to add/remove things as you see fit - but I think the $$ number won't fluctuate much. $750-$1000 depending on what you believe the setup should be. If anyone wants to do more intensive math, be my guest! 

I suggest that Achaea introduce artefact packages, similar to the no brainer packages. Instead of slashing prices of artefacts or credits (though I would totally be down for a mass reduction in prices across the board), I think leaving them the same while also providing a cheaper means of achieving a basic form of investment is a good idea. Something like 5000 lessons (2.5 skills, or all miniskills), l1 con, l1 sip, l1 regen, l1 bracelet for $250. While this would reduce the up front cost for these items, it lowers the barrier of entry pretty heftily - while also leaving the upgrade option down the line the same. So a new character, for $325 (no brainer lesson+no brainer credits+no brainer artefact - which is not a small investment for an online game in the slightest), could reasonably get a solid amount of bang for their buck. Quick math indicates, for those items, roughly a 55% discount.

It may not be pretty to look at, or to think about, but I think ignoring the problem is not a good thing to do as we move into 2018 and beyond. One look at the Reddit thread about Achaea should be more than enough indication that it is a problem, and should be discussed openly and honestly. I'm sure I speak for quite a lot of Achaeans by saying, we want the company to remain healthy and continue to provide us content. My concern is that, even if we are able to increase new player creations (unique creations) - they're going to simply be turned away by the fact that it costs so damn much to become 'decent' by any factor that you can come up with.

Every conversation I have with a new player, honestly leaves a bad taste in my mouth, when discussing lesson investment/requirement and things that they reasonably need. Any interest in combat, you're going to want all of these items, and that's not even considering things like weapons, or utility artefacts like buckawns (please just delete or re-purpose this already) or veil or lyre or reflect wand or portal wand or warp stick. If you're a hunter, you want all of these plus critical hit pendants. Short of logging in purely to chat room or strictly for RP purposes, you're going to want these basic items.

I just think it's time we be serious about this conversation, as our player base has largely progressed from teenagers to adults with jobs/families and financial responsibilities where actual price points should be considered appropriately by any responsible person before investments are made.

Happy to hear others thoughts on the matter!


You hug Aurora compassionately.
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Comments

  • SenaSena Posts: 3,910Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Atalkez said:
    Assuming Tri-Trans, Trans Miniskills, Trans Survival, Trans Avoidance, Trans Vision, L1 Bracelet, L1 Sip, L1 Regen, L1 Con Belt (This is what I would consider the basic of the basic setup for anyone, and anyone that knows anything about the game would suggest this as a "goal to work towards") - you're looking at roughly 3000 credits, or $1,000 (factoring in the no brainer purchases, and the lesson conversion bonus new players get, lessons and credits received for leveling to 80). That's before adding an SoA, Riding, any niche things like Seafaring/Tradeskills etc. So, I think this is a fair estimate for a 'base' investment for a character that intends to have any sort of success across the spectrum of the game - hunting, combat, etc. It was brought up that all Miniskills aren't necessarily a base requirement, which is true. The reason I am including this is that, as I said earlier, artie creep means you have a magnitude more people walking around with full offensive output - so conversely, it stands to reason that, you will want to maximize your defense for the cheapest possible cost. Miniskills offer a nice reduction for a cheaper cost as compared to something like the Ring of Magus, etc. You're welcome to add/remove things as you see fit - but I think the $$ number won't fluctuate much. $750-$1000 depending on what you believe the setup should be. If anyone wants to do more intensive math, be my guest!
    Assuming your requirements and level 80, after no-brainer packages you would actually need an additional 3922 credits, so almost 4k rather than 3k. Ignoring promotions, it will cost you $1205, leaving you about 600 credits extra (or $940 leaving you about 500 credits short, which will be made up for by most monthly promotions).

    That's if you want it immediately though. Iron Elite greatly reduces the cost if you're willing to wait. If I haven't messed up the math somewhere, $660 over two years will get you there (although you can certainly earn a few hundred credits in-game in that time, so it will actually be less).

    Those details aside, I agree 100% with the rest of your post.
    AtalkezTyamatAshmond
  • PuxiPuxi Posts: 458Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Great post! I agree with everything here.

    @Sarapis @Tecton @Makarios @Nicola, interested in your thoughts on this.
    AtalkezAshmond
  • AshmondAshmond Posts: 14Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    edited January 10
    I completely agree here, it is the number one reason I have not recommended this game to friends or family, they would simply be put off by how much it costs, as most would want to get into PVP. 

    The alternative is not great either at 1 credit requiring 10k× gold for the above base requirements stated above (skills, L1s and basic supporting artifacts), even bashing to Dragon does not trans all class skills and say survival or avoidance, you have to pay to use all your class skills or bash for credits to convert lessons, thats even before purchasing artifacts. Add in multiclass and it's even more crazy.

    House credit sales are not that common and normally limit you to a few dozen, this should be improved for new players as well, sure there is something that can be done to aid Cities with this.

    Maybe we can extend what Iron Elite gives.

    Have a free daily wheel only equivalent with chances of bound credits and lessons, L1s, etc.

    Adding to this, my main class is DW. I was thinking about a new class, but the cost to multiclass my first slot and get basic artifacts for PVP is just too expensive, I either shell out nearly $600 (not going to happen, cannot afford, have responsibility and a house to support) for lessons to tri trans and two L1s yes I said L1s, or I have to ditch my main class and trade in artifacts to get the same. Or spend like 8 months bashing hours and hours a day.

    I do think the above and what @Atalkez stated is a very, very serious issue for new players (and shrinking playerbase), we can't assume existing players will stick around forever, either.
    Atalkez
  • AralayaAralaya Posts: 984Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Totally agreed.
    In total to get a 2 artefacts (3 if top hat counts?) and 12 skills, I've spent, probably upwards of $500 dollars.
    That's without the artefacts that Atalkez listed, and the rest of my Mini Skills.

    Shit's expensive yo.


    Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM

    teehee b.u.t.t. pirates
    AtalkezAshmond
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaPosts: 2,377Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 10
    @Sena
    Leveling to 80 gives roughly 600 lessons and 200cr (another 1200 lessons), $70 will get you 3800 no-brainer lessons, plus 2500 bonus lessons from credit conversion.

    That leaves only 7167 lessons through typical credit purchase to Trans class+Avoid+Vis+Surv+7 minis, or 1195 credits. Plus 1550 credits for "L1 defensive set", is how we reached the <3000cr sum.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
    AtalkezAshmondSena
  • SenaSena Posts: 3,910Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 11
    You're right, I was counting the first 1000 lessons as 2500, instead of adding 2500 for a total of 8500. I also only counted the no-brainer lessons once instead of twice.

    That changes my numbers to $950 total with ~670 credits left over or $675 with ~430 credits short (which can be made up with promotions; 20% bonus credits will just about cover that). $495 over 17 months with Iron Elite.
    Atalkez
  • ShubShub Posts: 56Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    I don't want to think about how much I've spent, it's a lot. I feel like I need to get my credit purchase arties filled before I can begin to chase all these talisman sets (which are likely much harder on the wallet). So many people trade in those things that I feel like I'm missing out on a huge part of the game because I still have a long list of arties to buy.

    meropis pebble, fire/frost bracers and armor+prybar are my likely next purchases.

    Not sure if getting a weapon for parry would be useful (as an alchemist)
  • DochithaDochitha Posts: 1,283Member @ - Epic Achaean
    edited January 11
    Recent promos has given out a lot of Arties and effective price per credit has gone down a lot compared to before due to the bonuses and creative trade offered IG market. There's also more avenues of getting these items than just credits alone. 

    IRE has also tested reducing Artefact prices during discount promo. 

    So things are really getting cheaper. 

    But I think most people's concern here is the overall perception that the game is expensive.

    However, I cannot agree people are spending more here compared to other games. I have known people spending $300 a day for months on mobile games. People spending thousands a month in a game is not uncommon. But other games do "feel" a lot cheaper but doesn't mean total spending would be less. 

    I think Achaea is a very quality highly detailed game, and it has the ability to carry a "premium" price. And I am not sure if lowering prices will increase overall revenue given the fact that Artefact is a one time expense, unlike buying gems or coins in other games that is setup for players to just grow a bigger number but always staying at the same spot on a singular scale. Stupid clash of clans, kings, tribes, wives. 
  • AlyxeriAlyxeri Posts: 467Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Shub said:
    Not sure if getting a weapon for parry would be useful (as an alchemist)
    Can parry with a shield.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Posts: 4,638Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 11
    Dochitha said:
    Recent promos has given out a lot of Arties and effective price per credit has gone down a lot compared to before due to the bonuses and creative trade offered IG market. There's also more avenues of getting these items than just credits alone. 

    IRE has also tested reducing Artefact prices during discount promo. 

    So things are really getting cheaper. 

    But I think most people's concern here is the overall perception that the game is expensive.

    However, I cannot agree people are spending more here compared to other games. I have known people spending $300 a day for months on mobile games. People spending thousands a month in a game is not uncommon. But other games do "feel" a lot cheaper but doesn't mean total spending would be less. 

    I think Achaea is a very quality highly detailed game, and it has the ability to carry a "premium" price. And I am not sure if lowering prices will increase overall revenue given the fact that Artefact is a one time expense, unlike buying gems or coins in other games that is setup for players to just grow a bigger number but always staying at the same spot on a singular scale. Stupid clash of clans, kings, tribes, wives. 
    You really can’t compare a game like Achaea to those games. They have advertising/marketing draw that Achaea simply will probably never have. 

    To be frank, though, you aren’t exactly a good measuring stick for what is acceptable and what isn’t. You aren’t someone who has to save Elite or bash up credits to get something. You just buy it. I think it’s a bit disingenuous for you to be sitting at 50,000 escrow or whatever you have, and say the pricing model is okay. Of course you think it’s okay, you aren’t one of the people that struggles to keep up, or can’t reasonably buy anything more than the Elite regularly. Temper your opinions based on the people around you, not specifically what affects you.

    Edit: You know people who spend $300 a day on mobile games? I know people who spend $300 a month just to eat, and that’s their entire budget. Not everyone sits at the same income level you and your friends do.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • ZelisiaZelisia Posts: 19Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    edited January 11
    Dochitha said:
    Recent promos has given out a lot of Arties and effective price per credit has gone down a lot compared to before due to the bonuses and creative trade offered IG market. There's also more avenues of getting these items than just credits alone. 

    IRE has also tested reducing Artefact prices during discount promo. 

    So things are really getting cheaper. 

    But I think most people's concern here is the overall perception that the game is expensive.

    However, I cannot agree people are spending more here compared to other games. I have known people spending $300 a day for months on mobile games. People spending thousands a month in a game is not uncommon. But other games do "feel" a lot cheaper but doesn't mean total spending would be less. 

    I think Achaea is a very quality highly detailed game, and it has the ability to carry a "premium" price. And I am not sure if lowering prices will increase overall revenue given the fact that Artefact is a one time expense, unlike buying gems or coins in other games that is setup for players to just grow a bigger number but always staying at the same spot on a singular scale. Stupid clash of clans, kings, tribes, wives. 
    Have to just say, the current culture of gaming is only going to get more interactive to all senses. I don't think it's a fair comparison to pit text games against graphical MMOs. To be honest, my favorite graphical is Lord of the Rings Online. For $10 a month I have access to all the content. The only thing I'd ever spend paid currency on are little convenience things that just playing the game will grind up enough points to buy. That's on top of the points you get with the subscription.

    I also don't think it's fair to price text games in the same way graphical games are. Whereas games with huge playerbases can drop to bargain basement prices for their content, I don't know that text games really can.  With the amount of development that's being done, I'm willing to pay to support the coders/creative directors to keep the momentum up but I do like having perks for the investment too. That said, I think there's a balance that IRE needs to find in order to draw in new players.

    I'm a firm believer that if gamers get truly invested in IRE, they'll stay to help support the growth and culture. With Starmourn coming out this year, this is the perfect time to take a look at how to draw in and retain more players.
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,735Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 11
    The lessons thing (can't even get tri trans + survival for cheap) is a bigger limiter than arties, imo, but talismans and credit creep from over the years does make the arty issue worse.

    As far as House/City credit sales like @Ashmond mentioned, we can't even do those too often because we get like 90% non-credit promos, so houses and cities have had extremely limited credit income lately. It seems like the policy is to starve the orgs/players of other ways to get credits, which is kind of messed up.
    ShirszaeLaedha
  • MinifieMinifie Posts: 1,714Member @ - Epic Achaean
    This is where mementos could fill the void incredibly well. They are tradeable and farmable, as well as being a “monthly” grind thing. Putting artefacts at level 1 behind memento walls that are permanent but can’t be customised/upgraded (or upgraded at l1-l2 difference+2/3rds of level one cost, so upgrading con 1 to 2 would be 866, not 600) would be a great boon for everyone.

    The only caveat is that some would abuse the hell out of artificially inflating mementos value on this, but IMO 200 mementos for lv1 bracelets would still be achievable in a month or two, while spending bashing gold/credits on lessons for a new character. This simply allows them to work in tandem with each other.

    on top of this, you can make a new command: RESOLVE PERSONALLY, so if I RESOLVE 100 player kills, I get the current reward, if I PERSONALLY RESOLVE 100 player kills, I get double payout in bound mementos. With the right number tweaking, becoming heavily artied will still cost $$$$$, but the ENTRY LEVEL EXPERIENCE becomes more palatable. 
    Wicella
  • AlyxeriAlyxeri Posts: 467Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 11
    Dochitha said:
    However, I cannot agree people are spending more here compared to other games. I have known people spending $300 a day for months on mobile games. People spending thousands a month in a game is not uncommon. But other games do "feel" a lot cheaper but doesn't mean total spending would be less. 
    Difference between those games and IRE ones? You don't actually have to pay a cent, if you manage your currency efficiently. The ones you listed for instance, have weekly/bi-weekly events that practically throw freemium currency at you. If Achaea had such things, where you could get anywhere from 5-15 credits per day just by doing some trivial daily tasks (I'm talking 20-30 minutes per day), then it would be comparable.

    Please don't use the "but you can bash for credits!" argument. Do the math on that, and apply it to a new player's perspective, before using it as a reasonable point.
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,735Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 11
    Every f2p mobile game has whales (and dochitha is a whale here, not meant offensively, so we do too). The issue is f2p mobile games have things for the free players to actually do, too. Invest 0 money in achaea and you can do very little on the combat/bashing side without having a billion hours of free time.
  • TysandrTysandr Posts: 385Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    If your kid came up to you and said, "Pa/Ma, don't worry about Christmas shopping, can I have 1,000 Achaean credits instead?"


    Would you do it?
    Nexus: Accents
    "Anxiety is a beautiful name for fear."

  • TorinnTorinn Posts: 828Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    That's my boy.  He makes me so proud :')
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
    Tysandr
  • AralayaAralaya Posts: 984Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Tysandr said:
    If your kid came up to you and said, "Pa/Ma, don't worry about Christmas shopping, can I have 1,000 Achaean credits instead?"


    Would you do it?
    is it bad that credits were on my christmas list...


    Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM

    teehee b.u.t.t. pirates
    Tysandr
  • KyrraKyrra Sanctum of the SkyPosts: 4,566Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tysandr said:
    If your kid came up to you and said, "Pa/Ma, don't worry about Christmas shopping, can I have 1,000 Achaean credits instead?"


    Would you do it?
    Back when I first started playing and was in my teens and still at school, I did this. Birthdays and Christmas presents.
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

    Tysandr
  • AntoniusAntonius Posts: 4,459Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Alyxeri said:
    Shub said:
    Not sure if getting a weapon for parry would be useful (as an alchemist)
    Can parry with a shield.
    Or a forged weapon. No reason to buy an artefact weapon just for parrying, unless you want to do a cool customisation (I always support buying weapons to do cool customisations).
    Tysandr said:
    If your kid came up to you and said, "Pa/Ma, don't worry about Christmas shopping, can I have 1,000 Achaean credits instead?"


    Would you do it?
    This is literally how I got my first lot of credits when I started playing Achaea at age 13. To be honest, had I not gotten those first lot of credits I probably would have quit playing, and CFS prices were a lot more reasonable back then.
    Alyxeri said:
    Dochitha said:
    However, I cannot agree people are spending more here compared to other games. I have known people spending $300 a day for months on mobile games. People spending thousands a month in a game is not uncommon. But other games do "feel" a lot cheaper but doesn't mean total spending would be less. 
    Difference between those games and IRE ones? You don't actually have to pay a cent, if you manage your currency efficiently. The ones you listed for instance, have weekly/bi-weekly events that practically throw freemium currency at you. If Achaea had such things, where you could get anywhere from 5-15 credits per day just by doing some trivial daily tasks (I'm talking 20-30 minutes per day), then it would be comparable.

    Please don't use the "but you can bash for credits!" argument. Do the math on that, and apply it to a new player's perspective, before using it as a reasonable point.
    The issue I have with "you can bash for credits" is this: Yes, people can bash for credits. But there's a finite number of denizens in the game, and the number of denizens that actually have gold drops that make buying a large amount of credits possible is even smaller. Person A might be able to bash enough to make some credits, but if they're doing that person B can't. It's possible for some people to bash for credits, but it's not possible for everyone to bash for credits, even if everybody playing the game had unlimited time to spend bashing.


    ShirszaeLeviticusZbaco
  • AshmondAshmond Posts: 14Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    People have made some good points here, Tri-trans + Survival and Avoidance. This should be something easily obtainable once you hit level 80 and gated around levels gained (Would say the same for all mini skills, should scale like Battlerage). In no way should your class skills and basic skills such as Survival and Avoidance be gated around purchasing credits, it's just silly.

    ^ Biggest thing here, which puts so many people off.

    I remember when I started playing CFS was at 5k, so bashing was not as crazy and gold easier to get as well. No new player is going to want to bash to Dragon and many, many months after just to Tri-trans + Survival and Avoidance and maybe a few Mini Skills, before they an even use their own class normally.

    People will get bored and quit if they have to do the above for their main skills and then this for basic, basic artifacts like L1 defensive, L1 Weps, quick math:
    • Bashing 80k a day which is very hard for me personally even as a Dragon for 168 days straight =  1344cr
    • ^ Do not think many can do this and, this is very few and far between
    So, having to get to Dragon and shell out $$ just to get your main skills, then bash for another 6months+ straight for 1344cr, which does not even give you enough for the very, very basic baseline L1 Artifacts and maybe a L1 Weapon for a years worth of effort is not right.

    I personally think all L1 artifacts should be obtainable in the game, which does not force you to bash for 2-3hrs a day for 6 months to get the basic, of the basic.
  • DochithaDochitha Posts: 1,283Member @ - Epic Achaean
    edited January 11
    Guys are overreacting to my statements, if you don't know Dochitha at all, would you still take my comments with a bias... I merely said:

    1) Effective credit prices have dropped a lot compared to before, you can take it as sort of "reduction"
    2) Artefacts have also been discounted at times, which is another discount
    3) They just didn't fix the perception that the game is expensive, even after these reductions
    4) The prices here doesn't mean people are paying more here than other games
    5) The quality of the game so far is good, affording them the ability to carry an "expensive" perception
    6) All artefacts are "spend one time, enjoy a lifetime" deals

    EDIT: Next time I will just write in point form.
    AtalkezLeviticus
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,735Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 11
    1+2 don't lead into 3 even if we take them as true. You could permanently put a 30% discount on all arties and it'd still be too expensive for the average person.

    People are definitely paying more here than in other games, too. I can play dota 2 at any level I want without spending a single dollar ever, you can play even gacha mobile games for cheaper than it takes to get a basic arty package in achaea.

    "Quality" is not really a good excuse when plenty of other f2p games are extremely high quality (the  aforementioned dota 2, path of exile, warframe). Achaea obviously offers unique things or none of us would be playing it, but there's tons of extremely high quality games that you can get for under $60 lifetime, and a bunch more you can play for free.

    There was a recent news story of a guy who spent like over 10k usd on microtransactions across multiple games recently and it was considered a shocking story. I'd wager there's a bunch of people on Achaea who've spent that or more and no one even gives it anything more than a shrug, pointing to a skewed perception of what's proper value.

    Your arguments are based on assuming every other game is just as expensive and also worse in quality, which is demonstrably false.
  • ReysonReyson Posts: 467Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Achaea's in a funny spot, because, while it's expensive, it's also one of the few games wherein the value you spend is pretty much undiminishing. Course, there are a few examples, like nerfs and stuff (and sometimes you get refunds, more so now than before), where the value of what you bought goes down. But, just as people say, 'where else do you spend X amount of money?' it's pretty valid to turn around and say, 'What game have you been playing for X years that you still enjoy playing every day?'

    Which isn't to say that it's a reasonable hobby to get someone interested in. I do like the suggestion of Elite giving you tri-trans functionality, and, let's be honest- people who spend a lot on Achaea aren't people who're just getting started. It's people who're rooted in and really interested that trickle in money here and there. I've not heard of a ton of players (and I've been playing a long time) who dumped a gajillion bucks into it all of a sudden. Most people I know buy enough to trans a skill here, an artie there, over years and years. 

    The gate is pretty rough, to be sure. But I think it's also worth noting that people don't go from starting Achaea to competing with top-tier fighters (which is where arties really make a huge difference) right away, either. I don't think most players'd be dissuaded about playing over not being able to toe-to-toe the top 5 dogs in Achaea. A lot of what we see as 'necessary' in Achaea is very, very tinged by our perception of it, and that's mostly a perception based on being tuned into the mechanics of a game we've known for at least a handful of years, for the most part. 

    For example, I was thinking about recommendations I've made in the past as I read this, and: given how small the pool of people who 1v1 is (bigger now, with serverside curing and people in general getting a little more into fighting), I can't honestly say I'd recommend trans avoidance to someone who isn't really going to play Achaea a lot, right out of the gate, as I might have in previous years, when asked about must-haves. To be sure, to an Achaean who's been playing a while, avoidance is a no-brainer thing that we'd probably hate to go without. For someone learning the game, getting into it, is it a must-have? Probably not. It's important to keep a bit of perspective when thinking about what 'minimum investment' really does entail. 

    Ultimately, Achaea's a game that relies on people both liking the game world and the people in it, to keep coming back. The number of people who play solely or even primarily for the pvp don't number a few dozen atm, I'd be willing to bet, and that's with two decades' worth of player acquisition. People play because they meet friends, love their orgs, find Achaea whimsical, and so on much more than because they love pvp. Pvp might be fun once in a while for most people, but having a bit of fun in pvp doesn't necessarily require a huge investment. Group combat is a lot cheaper than 1v1, and clever group composition, along with a good attitude from your teammates, goes a lot further than having a lot of arties for having casual fun in group pvp. 

    Agreed that Achaea's really expensive as a hobby. But I think it's also important to keep in perspective the longevity of Achaea as an investment, and how often we think of things as 'necessary' that really aren't. I think anything that convinces new players to stick around is good, though, and having access to at least your class skills out of the gate seems like a pretty logical way to ensure that- and tying that to an elite subscription seems pretty reasonable. 
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,735Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Playing games for a decade+ isn't really that rare anymore, though. People have done that with EQ, WOW, Eve, etc.

    The difference is all these games (maybe not eq, idk) have added catchup mechanisms so someone starting in 2018 isn't hopelessly behiond. Even Eve did this, and that was a game where literally the way you advanced was by waiting RL days/weeks/whatever for your skills to move up on their own. Wow and so on obviously have just made leveling easier and obsoleted past expansion raids when a new one comes out.

    Achaea's added very little in the way of catch-up mechanisms. If I start playing Achaea today, not only am I extremely behind on knowledge (from syntax to mechanics to lore), but I'm also behind thousands of credits with no easy way to come closer to older players that don't involve dropping thousands of dollars in one go.
    Zbaco
  • ReysonReyson Posts: 467Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Sure, but what's the context in which having a list of arties that big really matters? 1v1, right?

    How many people actually 1v1? 

    You're not wrong, necessarily. I'm saying that what Achaeans perceive as 'necessary' to compete might not be what someone new to the game sees as necessary to compete. Someone willing to sit down and walk you through serverside curing, plus a couple of offensive aliases and being pointed to helpful IC books/forums posts about classes puts you literally years ahead of where I was when I played for the first 6-7 years of Achaea and had patchwork borrowed stuff from other people and barely knew my classes well. 

    If tritrans were accessible via a subscription model, I'd have no problem recommending Achaea to people, with regards to investment. 
    DochithaTaryiusTorinn
  • AralayaAralaya Posts: 984Member @ - Epic Achaean
    edited January 11
    I think the idea that "Oh, not everyone is going to want to 1v1" is true, if you asked me last year I would've told you hell no, but if someone does, or after a little while playing decide they want to, they'll be at a huge disadvantage without dropping thousands of dollars, and they shouldn't be discounted just because they're not in the majority of players.

    Sure, you can overcome having less Arties with skill and practice, but even then you're inherently limited because person x has had years to build up Arties at a slower pace while you haven't.



    Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM

    teehee b.u.t.t. pirates
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