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  • OgnogOgnog Posts: 284Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Mathilda said:

    This is why I advocated for a bigger role for Twilight and Darkwalkers in the Hashan government. The city needs pushing, and it will only accept pushing from the godmin. Doubly complicating this issue is that some people will only accept pushing from a particular godmin. At that time, however, we only had Twilight. The city refused the push, and that may have been the proverbial last nail in the coffin for this Twilight. So long, you were amazing, vastly underappreciated, and gone too soon. I will miss you peeking at me while I murder tsol'dasi.
    ...
    And the general Hashani playerbase needs to stop treating patrons are mere idea-factories. Embrace their ideals, because like it or not, they are the the ideals of the faction as a whole.
    ...
    PS It may be important to reiterate that I have basically withdrawn from any sort of leadership position because I recognise that I am not equipped to deal with the aforementioned issues. Godspeed to the hero who does!
    @Mathilda, I know you passionately wanted Hashan to become the City of Darkness, and I do empathize with the heartache you must have felt with the political fallout. However, for an Order that prides itself on nuance and subtlety the attempted coup by the Darkwalkers was really ill conceived. There is a difference between embracing the ideals of a Patron and submitting to authoritarian rule by a Patron, and the citizens of Hashan clearly rejected the latter. You didn't withdraw from your leadership position, you and your co-conspirators were effectively kicked to the curb. Despite this, the Darkwalkers continue to play a valued role within Hashan and in time will return to a balanced participation in city leadership.

    Hashan is the Court of Shadows, and it takes Moonlight to cast shadows in the Darkness.

    I don't know if this setback was the reason for Twilight's departure, but if it was then I'm very disappointed. Playing a God role isn't about winning and losing. The players behind the Gods aren't supposed to be competing with each other and their happiness shouldn't hinge on successfully building a Machiavellian empire. The art of the game master is to subtly guide the adventurers in the desired direction, and there are plenty of mechanisms to achieve this without needing direct command over a group of adventurers.


  • ReysonReyson Posts: 285Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I'm just not sure what it is you actually want out of a patron, given that post. This isn't a tabletop game you can pick up once a week. Godhood is an everyday thing that requires a lot of effort to get to, and even more to hold on to. Of course the people playing gods want to play, to move things forward, start new stories. Who'd volunteer to basically just be a troubleshooter and customizer in chief? 

    Why didn't Hashan work with its patron and His order, instead of the other way around? If you don't want change, and you're fine with the balance of affairs and the state of things (enough that you're not willing to make compromise, just flat out reject that patron's plans), I have no idea what you're looking for. Seems to me you should be fine with just an admin to add mobs/rooms/items, or whatever else people want. 

    Your attitude treats gods like you're paying them, like they're providing you a service you've earned. They're not. They're volunteers. Think of their fun, too, once in a while. 
    GannicusKietAldwic
  • JacenJacen Posts: 2,271Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    There's been some discussion in this thread about pro-patron control over cities, and I think its worth mentioning that this idea was rejected firmly by admin during the Renaissance. Faction identities were watered down so as not to be an extension of any one god's order. A major side effect of this, then, is that cities just aren't going to let a patron have run of the city, because the patron represents a small faction of the city. Twilight did very well for a long time in Hashan, but because of the new foundations of the city, its just too easy to play the secular opposition and rouse up support for a people-led government. Not to mention the nature of the Darkwalkers also makes it easy to rouse up support against them.

    Twilight being active in Hashan's activities has generally done very good things for the city (more newbies, more players, more active on the world stage, etc.) but has always been, and likely always will be, short-lived. Its a fundamental flaw that was enacted so the city wouldn't wither away when Twilight was inactive.
    image
    AccipiterAldwic
  • OgnogOgnog Posts: 284Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Just imagine for a moment that there are only six Gods, each ruling one of the cities of Sapience.

    Achaea would have lost two dimensions in this.
    1. Politics would be completely lost from the game, with promotions going only to those that suck up to their faction's God most effectively.
    2. Order and City would become indistinguishable.

    Achaea's sophistocated political systems, along with separate Orders and City States have always been a selling point for Achaea. Why would we throw all that away to become a game of city vs city?

    LaedhaCaelan
  • MathildaMathilda Posts: 586Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited May 25
    Let's ease out of the wild extremes. I'm actually in favour of less godmin oversight, even in the theocracies like Mhaldor and Targossas, precisely because god roles are extremely stressful and the turnover of volunteers in those positions are incredibly high. When a god role becomes dormant, the Order and the faction behind it becomes dangerously fragile (see: Babel).

    However, the problem of legitimacy still exists: people are very resistant getting off of their behinds unless a godmin pushes them into action. This is a problem that is, I feel, more prevalent in Achaea compared to the other IREs I've played (Imperian and Lusternia, particularly), possibly because there was a Golden Age wherein Achaea was blessed with a lot of active admin and players have come to expect that same level of pampering all the time.

    So on one hand, we have a desire for a more player-driven, less admin-backed faction. On the other, we have players who will absolutely do something unless it's specifically admin-backed. Something has to give.

    edit PS: Also, I don't think you have any idea just how much the last Twilight tried to be more interactive with Hashan, only to be met with a shrug of indifference and low-key disdain. I don't fault him/her at all for eventually quitting after being relegated to a glorified figurehead role.
     <3 
  • MathildaMathilda Posts: 586Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    There are degrees of content-creation. Quizzes, rituals, contests, and the like are easy enough. But for things like major story lines and factional identity-building? It's much more difficult, and people are less likely to respond at all.

    Mhaldor benefits from the fact that Evil is a well-defined identity. The Seven Truths, Sartan, Suffering, Oppression. Targossas is the same with the Bloodsworn. Even Cyrene pulls through: no combat, respect the rule of law (plus the fact that the noncom population is always going to be bigger than the other).

    Hashan, though? Moon+Dark, but what are those, really? This is further made worse by the fact that there are still people who refuse to embrace the Court of Shadows moniker and insist on using the Crown of the Ithmia. (Hashan news 9475 in particular is a good eye-opener to just how disliked Twilight is by Ouranians, to the point that they reject the Shadows thing altogether).

    Developing the identity of Hashan is what I mean when I said things require admin-backing, because clearly a section of the players is adamantly against the idea. At this point, no amount of player-driven talent-pooling is enough to push Hashan onto embracing the Shadows/Night identity, not without admin-backing. And, well...Hashan doesn't really have a great history with its treatment of volunteer godmins.
     <3 
    JacenEheneShaydeAldwic
  • EheneEhene Posts: 80Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    For me, the problem hearkens back to the founding of Hashan, where citizens from Ashtan and Shallam left their respective cities to get away from the constant warring and strife between the two. Unless my history is totally wrong, in which case feel free to crucify me since I'm supposed to know history. There is a section of the city that clings to that sort of ideal, the Cyrenese isolationism and non-combative anti-Divine control. There is, however, a significant portion of the city that seeks to break out into the world as the City of Night or Shadows or hell, even Darkness. The problem, I think, is that the secular group is much more vocal than the group wanting to embrace a Divine directive. Furthermore, there is a lot of disdain for the current Order of Darkness, as many take issue with the way it is being led (from what I've heard).

    Personally, I'm of the mind that we should embrace a Divine directive, but we should be able to help define what that directive is. I believe there can be a happy medium between a city serving a Patron and a Patron serving a city. Especially with Twilight's whole "do whatever, since everything is a part of the Great Work" thing, I think there is definitely a way to move forward with people keeping their own beliefs and motivations and still working with the Patron. The problem is that there is still that group that is actively, vocally pushing back against the merger. How do we fix that?

    Either the Order of Darkness begins a campaign to educate/convince the citizens that Darkness and Twilight are not only good for, but necessary for, Hashan, or there is a significant conflict between the groups that leads Hashan to split into two warring factions; from the latter, the outcomes are either one group leaves, one group eliminates the other, or Hashan literally splits in two. And since I don't think the Garden is going to just make a new city that's Hashan-lite, there is going to be a conflict, either in ideologies or, heavens forbid, in violence.

    Mathilda
  • CaelanCaelan Posts: 804Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Hashan has always been Twilight's.  Granted, usually by proxy.  But I always loved the "We are the city of merchants" where you come in to trade and it's laid back, and people chat you up.   Meanwhile, they're Twilighters trying to gather intel for their nefarious purposes or to gain entry to an organization, exploiting any discord or scrap of info. Meanwhile his other ordermembers were in every branch of every city, reporting back, sowing discontent and manipulating politics and the citizenry to their Master's will.   

    Man Twilight used to be so badass.  No idea why you would be against having Him around if you were Hashan.  

    Ehene
  • MorthifMorthif Posts: 1,476Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Hashan having an identity that isn't neutral helps both Hashan and Cyrene  
  • SharaShara MidlandsPosts: 196Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    "There are degrees of content-creation. "

    Absolutely. I'm not saying that everything that goes on in a city should be totally player created. What I am saying is that a lot of events that happen within cities are player ideas taken to the Admins via email and messages by organisations within the city councils and Houses. Those ideas are discussed and then either planned out or cast aside as something that doesn't fit the narrative or ability to do. I'm not sure how much Hashan has discussed OOCly among each other to do RP-oriented events with the Admin in the time after I was Hashani, but we in Ashtan discuss and brainstorm more than most of our citizens might think. Plus, these ideas aren't always channeled completely through our Patron or have anything to do with our Patron, like our the Fire and Ice ball. (Though our patron was kind enough to create decorations, denizens, food and drinks, and hire that crazy band for us.) 

    What I'm saying is, if you have ideas for defining the culture of your city, get with your leadership and start working towards it so that ideas can be forwarded to the Admin to discuss in more depth. There are more than two opinions about Twilight in Hashan, and though "Hashan has always been Twilight's" doesn't mean the playerbase is shackled to that forever. Especially not if it hasn't worked out culturally or gained public majority support. I get why some Ouranians don't like Darkwalkers (not metagamer enough to make a Hashani alt to read the news but I've heard there were strong opinions voiced). That leads back the Vayne cross-over Order days. Sure, the orders could hash out what was manufactured animosity, but not sure they will. Things changed and every city is allowed to evolved if the playerbase pushes for it, that's what we pay to be apart of: a living world in real time.  
  • RegiRegi Posts: 30Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I personally would have loved it if Twilight actually got more involved and tried to do things with Hashan. I as CL for the entirety of his last "waking period" saw him in the flesh about 3 times, and heard him on CT another dozen or so. Not a lot occurred, but he was always respected and adhered to. He even personally instructed Regi to lead a few crusades on his behalf, which Regi undertook and did pretty well despite not actually being able to enter the damn plane himself.

    No disparaging to whoever was playing him, as I know it's a volunteer thing and that's all good, but his brief window of re-appearance last year really did not contribute nearly enough to the growth or resurgence of Twilight's order. That really sucks at a time where the admins have pushed so much toward Order-based combat interactions, I don't really like or understand some of these restrictions at all, between the splinter mechanics and new defiling rules, all of the sudden to fight against Divines/religions you must yourself be religious, not very cool, takes away the interesting RP option of being pro mortal freedom and fighting zealotry.

    Pretty ridiculous that people are asserting that "patron control of your city" is the only way to really have conflict, given all that's gone on in this game's history. I guess people prefer to have closed minds and have their RP laid out for them. That said, I personally would love to have a Twilight player around and active more, doing and setting into motion whatever it is he or she thinks the god would do, even (or especially) if that would work counter to Regi's vision for the city and populace. I would have loved being absolutely smote to fuck by Twilight during all that coup-attempt stuff awhile back there, that kind of stuff is great fun, but Twilight was already dormant for awhile by then unfortunately.

    Also I have no idea where the idea that our godmins are treated badly has come from, I've never seen a shred of it while I've been actively playing. If not kneeling, capitulating and grovelling IC = poor treatment, well, that's a pretty sad reflection on what people desire from their godmin interactions. If I were to play a God, I'd have just as much fun with players who cast defiance into my teeth as those who worship fully (if the defiance wasn't cringe-worthy shouting from a boat I mean, I'd want actual good RP stuff). If there's OOC anti-Twilight player stuff going on I have never condoned it or heard of it, and shame on whoever's doing that.

    Anyway, by no means is my character going to let what he perceives as negative shit happen to the city for the sake of game mechanics. People have to be swayed, brought to heel, or beaten for changes like that to occur, it won't just happen. The great thing about Achaea is you don't have to just fall in line, everyone's options are nearly limitless and the game is dynamic. I love the change Hashan's seen in the past year and a half, it's completely different and way fucking cooler for it. And all with -barely- a trace of active patron influence (again no disrespect to Twilight player). 
    OgnogEheneBannAldwic
  • JacenJacen Posts: 2,271Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Regi said:

    Anyway, by no means is my character going to let what he perceives as negative shit happen to the city for the sake of game mechanics. People have to be swayed, brought to heel, or beaten for changes like that to occur, it won't just happen. The great thing about Achaea is you don't have to just fall in line, everyone's options are nearly limitless and the game is dynamic. I love the change Hashan's seen in the past year and a half, it's completely different and way fucking cooler for it. And all with -barely- a trace of active patron influence (again no disrespect to Twilight player). 
    I'd argue that a lot of the change that Hashan has experienced was born largely from the efforts of Twilight, Tyamat, and Kasa, from both the order conflict between the Darkwalkers and Eleusis over the Darkenwood, and erecting the new Obelisk in Hashan. Both events saw crazy high participation from non-Darkwalker Hashani and really spurred development in the military, which started warring over shrines with Eleusis before expanding to raiding and attacking shrines of other orgs. Even ignoring the actual efforts of the three mentioned above (which I guarantee were more than substantial), just the Darkened tone of the city effected a more aggressive outlook and participative attitude by the city overall.
    image
    Ognog
  • OgnogOgnog Posts: 284Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Jacen said:

    I'd argue that a lot of the change that Hashan has experienced was born largely from the efforts of Twilight, Tyamat, and Kasa, from both the order conflict between the Darkwalkers and Eleusis over the Darkenwood, and erecting the new Obelisk in Hashan. Both events saw crazy high participation from non-Darkwalker Hashani and really spurred development in the military, which started warring over shrines with Eleusis before expanding to raiding and attacking shrines of other orgs. Even ignoring the actual efforts of the three mentioned above (which I guarantee were more than substantial), just the Darkened tone of the city effected a more aggressive outlook and participative attitude by the city overall.
    And Twilight achieved all that without the need for direct control of Hashan's government.

    Bann
  • JacenJacen Posts: 2,271Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ognog said:
    And Twilight achieved all that without the need for direct control of Hashan's government.
    It certainly wasn't Twilight alone, but yes. You can't ignore the fact that it took two decades to get to that point, though, and only time will tell if Hashan backslides. There are still forces in Hashan that desire it to be a pacifist center of knowledge, and the recent Darkwalker disaster certainly gave them more traction than they had.

    But saying all that, I don't think a patron should have total control of a city. I just think that a city's identity should generally follow the same ideals of potential patrons, such that any anti-(potential patron) platforms are inherently anti-city. I.e. you can't stand against Twilight or Ourania without standing against Hashan.
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    Ognog
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,243Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Realistically, the only reason Hashan isn't a forum joke anymore is because of Twilight and Darkwalker players. To say 'but I dont' want them control me!' is a tween tantrum at best.

    The strawman that 'omg if gods controlled the cities all the neutral gods would disappear!' keeps being brought up, too, but that's all it is: a strawman. Twilight can guide Hashan while still allowing people to be in the neutral god orders. It's just that it's not going to be Phaestians running the city.
    Caelan
  • AccipiterAccipiter Posts: 263Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Kiet said:
    Realistically, the only reason Hashan isn't a forum joke anymore is because of Twilight and Darkwalker players. To say 'but I dont' want them control me!' is a tween tantrum at best.

    The strawman that 'omg if gods controlled the cities all the neutral gods would disappear!' keeps being brought up, too, but that's all it is: a strawman. Twilight can guide Hashan while still allowing people to be in the neutral god orders. It's just that it's not going to be Phaestians running the city.
    @Kiet Well you said "If you ain't for complete control you're useless to an aligned patron deity in Achaea." so pretty sure you brought up the strawman first.
    Laedha
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,243Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    No? A deity can be in complete control of a city while allowing its members (especially non-leadership members) to be in whatever order they want that's not in opposition.

    Sartan is in complete control of Mhaldor, but has in the past allowed Keresis, Indrani, and neutral ordermembers.
  • OgnogOgnog Posts: 284Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I'm seeing a lot of comments by players with characters from the theocracies of Mhaldor and Targossas insisting that the theocracy system is the only one that works. I don't know why they are so determined that all the cities become the same as theirs. If you're happy being ruled by a Sartanic iron fist, by all means suffer in the suffering. Don't assume that's what everyone else wants also.

    Look, a God can establish the ethos of a city and establish a lot of ethos related conflict without needing to directly control the city government. It can be done in a myriad of ways, but here's just one example -

    Suppose Twilight wants to establish some conflict between Hashan and Targossas. Twilight co-ordinates with others in the Garden to convince the Targossans that Hashan possesses a relic that threatens the very fabric of creation, and that Relic must be retrieved. Targossas raids Hashan maybe multiple times trying to obtain the relic before finally succeeding. Twilight then uses denizens etc to convince Hashan that the city is in dire peril because the dogmatic Targossans have stolen a relic that is essential for the stability of the wellspring of power below the city. Hashan then raids Targossas multiple times before recovering the relic and using it to stabilise the wellspring.

    As a Patron you don't need to be in a position to command a city to do something. All you need to do is manipulate the government into believing doing something is in the vital interests of the city. The ability to create the fabric of reality - to create evidence supporting the course of action you desire - is very powerful.

  • KietKiet Posts: 2,243Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 26
    No one said theocracy is the only option. Strawman again! Mhaldorians and Targossans are basically the only ones in cities with coherently applied ideologies, but that's only partly because of the theocracy. The rest is because we, as players, understand that infighting about 'omg u dont rule me' leads to hashan and the recent eleusis exodus.

    Your example also shows a lack of distinction between IC and OOC motivations. We're talking about IC motivations.


  • OgnogOgnog Posts: 284Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    Kiet said: No one said theocracy is the only option.
    Really ?
    Kiet said: If you ain't for complete control you're useless to an aligned patron deity in Achaea.

    Kiet said: Your example also shows a lack of distinction between IC and OOC motivations. We're talking about IC motivations.
    Sorry, you've lost me here. Cooperation within the Garden to organise events is necessarily OOC. How the Gods and denizens conduct themselves to make it happen is entirely IC.

  • KietKiet Posts: 2,243Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 26
    Complete control isn't necessarily a theocracy? Catholic ideology has had complete control over politics in many countries that weren't theologies.

    You believe we are saying 'twlilight oocly just wants more events.' We're saying 'ICly, you should be at least begrudgingly cooperative with Twilight because otherwise it makes your city a hot mess.' Of course, this in itself is an OOC consideration to a point, but ICly people shouldn't realistically be going 'lol nah' at the literal god that is the reason for their city's continued existence.

    Ultimately, you'll never be convinced, so it's a pointless argument. Hashan had a moment where it was rising to relevance, and that was entirely Twilight and the Darkwalkers. The rest of Hashan is currently in the process of blowing that while seemingly being unaware.
    GannicusAldwic
  • OzmatiahOzmatiah Posts: 51Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Kiet said:
    Hashan had a moment where it was rising to relevance, and that was entirely Twilight and the Darkwalkers. The rest of Hashan is currently in the process of blowing that while seemingly being unaware.
    I feel like the underworld victory was our peak, and I don't attribute that to Twilight as it was before His return. When Kasa and Karren (only listing those two as they are not around as much as they were, there are more names clearly) are around and active it has a much larger impact. Imaging losing a Farrah, Proficy, or Jhui.  When you lose folks that really inspire everyone to be better and lead the charge it hurts the folks willing to follow, but not willing to lead.  Now it's just transition while others try and hopefully step up to fill that void, but it's Hashan, it's a challenge.
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,243Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 26
    I mean, I don't want to out darkwalkers, but darkwalkers were why you were doing well in that, too.
    Jacen
  • AnariaAnaria Posts: 180Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited May 26
    It's amazing how we got yet another Hashan bashing thread out of the original post.  =)

    The definition of "active" when it comes to Divines is pretty up for grabs. Some people consider a Divine active if they answer messages once in a blue moon or appear for five minutes every six months. 

    If "active" means being a visible presence in the world semi-regularly, and actually being a force for player roleplaying and direction, than Achaea is really suffering from a lack of Gods in my opinion. Lord Aegis, Lord Sartan and Lord Deucalion are the only ones who to my eye seem to be around and interacting on a regular basis. We have seen other Gods "return" and have a brief spat of activity/visibility, but then quickly fade away again.

    Some groups, be they Cities, Houses or High Clans, need an active Patron to push them more than others. Or at least... police them a little bit to keep them on track. I've been playing Achaea for several years now, and this is to my mind the single area where the game could stand to improve the most.
  • CaelanCaelan Posts: 804Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Sarapis said:
    Regi said:


    Also I have no idea where the idea that our godmins are treated badly has come from, I've never seen a shred of it while I've been actively playing. 

    Most of the godmins would disagree with you, strongly, as would I, and are definitely in a position to know.
    And lo, on this day, did the Sarapwn be layeth upon Regi.

    Shimi
  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIPosts: 3,219Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 26
    I'm late to this party but:

    I like how non-Hashani are talking about Hashan like they know wtf is going on in the city. I also like how people that were not directly involved with the goings on of the recent upheaval are commenting.

    Let me clear up a few things considering that I was one of the central players in the whole f'n mess.

    1. Hashan's resurgence onto the world stage was not because of the Darkwalkers. It was because of people like me, Kasa, Regi, Karren, Aesgar, Asria, Asani, Calira, Armali and a few more working for what seemed like ever to bring enthusiasm to the idea that Hashan is not and should not be a joke. Only 1 or 2 of those people is an actual Darkwalker

    2. Hashan is not neutral and never will be neutral unless some idiotic person decides to completely oust Twilight from the city. Hashan is Darkness, but not in the same way that Mhaldor is Evil, Targossas is Good, or how Eleusis is Nature.

    3. Hashani politics is much deeper than "Twilight vs everyone else". In fact, almost nobody in the city could be classified as entirely anti-Twilight.

    4. Mathilda, Ginovianna, and Asria got replaced. Ehene and Regi stayed and neither are Darkwalkers. 1 out of those three replaced is not a Darkwalker, so no, 2/5 of the regency does not constitute a majority Darkwalker presence on the ruling council of Hashan and even if the coup had worked, would still not have constituted a controlling Darkwalker presence on the regency. Twilight taking control of Hashan was never a real fear in the city.


    Long story short, stop posting about Hashani politics if you are not well-entrenched in the politics of the city.

    (Mudlet Clan): Nylian says, "Mosr's on the case. Fix incoming."

    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

  • KietKiet Posts: 2,243Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    No offense, but those '1 or 2' had an inordinate amount of influence in that rise.

    It also doesn't really matter how you justify it. Hashan was growing in notability rapidly until Twilight/the Darkwalkers burned out or had RL take over or whatever else. It's not a coincidence.
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