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Monk Tricks

BukariinBukariin Posts: 438Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
Monk class has changed quite a lot since I stopped playing six years ago.  Rolling this alt has been fun, but I'm getting to the point where "prep legs -> break legs -> bbt -> repeat" doesn't work against most people and I've been forced to get creative.

I discovered today, for example, that WWK and Mind Command could be used on the same balance.  It's a four second balance which kind of blows but I'm assuming Roundhouse and a Telepathy affliction can be utilized in the same way. 

So what has worked for you?  Is Riftlocking even a possibility with Monk?  Am I overthinking this class if I'm trying for anything more complicated than "keep prone -> loldamage"?
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  • DalranDalran Posts: 227Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    It's possible, but very unlikely, but you can truelock people as a monk.
  • ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited September 2014
    riftlocking is very possible as a monk.

    note: Some systems may catch the blackout+asthma with a smoke check.

    Key strategy: use a throwing axe to stick asthma & slickness (with proficiency and knife thrower perk).  You can lead into the double arm break with a double leg break (since they will always cure legs first), giving you enough time to burn through up to 2-3 kelp and still get a riftlock before an arm is cured.  As soon as you see them not eat kelp 1.5 seconds after you throw your axe, throw a slickness axe.  If the haven't cured their arms before this happens, then voila, they're riftlocked.

    I never actually timed it, but with nothing but a nice, fast throwing axe, you should be able to get  ~2 second axe throws.  Assuming your opponent has 2 kelps outrifted before you start throwing kalmia axes, it's a nearly guaranteed riftlock if you don't screw it up (you also can't miss, since they're prone).  If they keep 3 or more kelp outrifted, you can still get them by sneaking addiction (using blackout) or throwing in a torso break (can be done with the actual axe throws, or before the leg break, etc.)  Either they'll prio the torso over arms, buying you an additional 3 seconds, or they won't, which gives you 2 level 1 torso break BBTs, which will kill pretty much anyone who isn't a necromancer or Jhui-artied.

    The setup would look like this:

    prep arms, legs [, torso/torso]
    [sneak torso break if they aren't smart or have SLC]

    Blackout *[optional]
    vardrax axe *[optional]
    SWK/HFP/HFP (double leg break)
    Kalmia axe to torso/SPP/SPP (double arm break, torso break with axe) [can break head with axe instead, if you snuck the torso break]
    If they cured addiction (likely) then just repeat kalmia axes until they don't eat kelp after 1.5 seconds, then slickness axe.
    If they didn't cure addiction, then just kalmia axe twice, then slickness axe.
    [now they're riftlocked]

    Keep in mind, passive curing makes the addiction strategy virtually impossible, as well as pretty much any other form of affliction strategy for monk.  Similarly, (obviously), you can't riftlock anyone with fitness, or dragons, provided they aren't completely retarded.




    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
      1. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        edited September 2014
        Also, @Bukariin, you should be using prefarar axe+mind command, unless your opponent is both deaf and mounted.

        It cures deafness, can target any limb you like, is far more accurate, and is much faster.  Pretty much better in every possible way, except that it doesn't do much as much damage (which honestly doesn't really matter 99% of the time).

        Also see:  Prefarar arrow : mind command tumble

        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
          1. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
            edited September 2014
            Bukariin said:
            Monk class has changed quite a lot since I stopped playing six years ago.  Rolling this alt has been fun, but I'm getting to the point where "prep legs -> break legs -> bbt -> repeat" doesn't work against most people and I've been forced to get creative.

            Going for the triple play.

            First of all, monk doesn't do "lol damage".  Even with level 3 knuckles and 21 str, my monk doesn't kill most midbie or higher players provided they cure/avoid correctly.  Tekura/strength has been nerfed so many times in the few years that monk has finally began to require some somewhat complicated strategy to kill people (which is good) while still revolving around damage as a primary kill method.

            The first thing you should focus on are torso breaks.  Without a torso break, you're not going to kill pretty much anyone.  It's a complex subject, but it boils down to: "How can I get a few BBTs in before they cure torso?" (which often boils down to: "How can I sneak a torso break?".

            Also, if you're wondering about AXK... don't bother.  It's 100% useless.

            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                  Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
              1. AegothAegoth Posts: 2,170Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                Ernam said:

                Also, if you're wondering about AXK... don't bother.  It's 100% useless.
                Except that @Kross completely schooled you with this point and proved you wrong. Bad monk is bad :)
                Darquesse
              2. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                edited September 2014
                Aegoth said:
                Except that @Kross completely schooled you with this point and proved you wrong.




                This literally never happened.

                Kross proved that it was possible to kill people with AXK (which I never disagreed with).  My counter-point was and is that in every example he provided, BBT would have also worked, and it would work 2-4 seconds faster.  Thus, AXK is 100% pointless, unless you are in a duel where you pinky-swear to not use BBT for some dumbfuck reason.

                @Aegoth, care to tap into that vast amount of experience with monk combat that you have (or quote someone else's) to explain to us, using actual math, a single example of AXK killing someone faster that BBTs would, or killing someone when BBT wouldn't kill them?

                Spoiler alert:

                The only time AXK would ever kill anyone when BBT wouldn't is in team-ganks with multiple monks, due to the BBT timer.  However, even in that example, it's incredibly unlikely (as in, I've never seen it a single time, ever) that in team combat, you'd ever have 4-5 limbs simultaneously broken on a target, which is what is required to make AXK relevant, at all (as in, better than a kai choke or bashing combo).

                "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                      Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                  1. KenwayKenway San FranciscoPosts: 1,123Member @@ - Legendary Achaean

                    - Limb Counter - Fracture Relapsing -
                    "Honestly, I just love that it counts limbs." - Mizik Corten
                  2. AustereAustere TennesseePosts: 2,063Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    @Ernam‌ did you seriously write that entire response to a two sentence trolling?  You gotta learn to recognize.  Take a step back,  or people won't let up. 
                    DalranCalypzo
                  3. DarklyreDarklyre Posts: 189Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
                    If you need to use fitness, note that fitness only takes leg balance, so you could technically fitness/punch/punch and not slow down your offense TOO much.
                  4. BukariinBukariin Posts: 438Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                    Team combat is a non-issue, anybody who can hold a target prone for 2-4 seconds opens them up to BBT which is 90% of my contribution to a team.

                    Riftlocking just doesn't seem viable, or if it is viable, it would only work once (it's not hard to keep 10 kelp in your inventory).  A similar amount of prepwork would make AXK viable, not only from a damage angle but for the potential to land a head cripple.
                  5. AustereAustere TennesseePosts: 2,063Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    Addiction consumes all herbs of the same type in inventory.  You have 200 Kelp,  eat one with addiction and they are all gone
                    DalranErnam
                  6. BukariinBukariin Posts: 438Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                    edited September 2014
                    Prep legs -> prep arms -> force tree -> force focus -> break legs -> break arms -> roundhouse/throw vardrax -> roundhouse/throw gecko -> roundhouse/throw kalmia

                    Something like that?  And hope they cure paralysis before addiction?

                    E: Time-wise, it would work if I only had to throw everything once or maybe kalmia twice, but it's a really small window considering I can only stack edibles and my balance is like 2.5 seconds.

                    E2: Can focus cure addiction?  I'm not sure if that's physical or mental.
                  7. DarklyreDarklyre Posts: 189Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
                    Bukariin said:
                    Prep legs -> prep arms -> force tree -> force focus -> break legs -> break arms -> roundhouse/throw vardrax -> roundhouse/throw gecko -> roundhouse/throw kalmia

                    Something like that?  And hope they cure paralysis before addiction?

                    E: Time-wise, it would work if I only had to throw everything once or maybe kalmia twice, but it's a really small window considering I can only stack edibles and my balance is like 2.5 seconds.

                    E2: Can focus cure addiction?  I'm not sure if that's physical or mental.
                    You'd have to throw/punch/punch. Throwing axes takes leg balance. Also, it'd be really, really hard to stick addiction.

                    With the amount of prepwork you're doing, you might as well just break their legs, then break torso/arms while they're prone, and BBT. Maybe switch in pref axe/arm/arm/mind command to stop a tumble attempt.

                    An idea I'm toying with in my mind is to SWK leg break, then break torso/arms (with a targeted axe throw to torso, with epseth another salve balance and keep their legs down longer). The idea is to keep them down as long as possible.

                    Random questions - will epteth stop parrying? And will epteth/epseth stack with a break?
                  8. XerXer LangleyPosts: 804Member
                    edited September 2014
                    No need to force tree - Broken arms = no tree usage. No need to RHK, you can't miss handaxes while prone. Furthermore, throwing axes uses leg balance, which is what RHK is so you can't do them simultaneously. Focus doesn't cure addiction. 

                    Quite frankly, the only way a riftlock would work if they had no ginseng/kelp outrifted. There's no way for addiction to stick unless you ran them out of ginseng first, since herb balance is faster than axe balance. An additional note is that venoms from thrown axes aren't hidden in blackout, so you can't rely on that either. As such, riftlocks from Monks are fairly 'gimmicky' in the sense that they rely on the opponent not preparing adequately by not precaching herbs.

                    With that prep work, there are a number of far more reliable, and stronger tactics available to you than an attempted riftlock. However, if you prepare accordingly, you certainly get style points for it and everyone knows that style >> killis :D
                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    e^(iπ) + 1 = 0
                    AustereMako
                  9. XerXer LangleyPosts: 804Member
                    Oh, I also forgot to mention magnesium outrift, though I was thinking it. You'd also have to add in a magnesium eat if they have any of that outrifted since they'll just eat bloodroot to cure the slickness in addition to smoking if they're able to.
                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    e^(iπ) + 1 = 0
                  10. BukariinBukariin Posts: 438Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                    Yeah, that's the trouble with addiction post-Transmutation, anybody with a system that can buffer both Conc/Trans can't be bothered by addiction, or at least not by somebody with a 2.5 second throw balance.
                  11. DalranDalran Posts: 227Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                    edited September 2014
                    Mind paralyse is so fast u can mind para/throw add/ mind para to stick addiction for a second or so

                    EDIT: that's somewhat dependent on how fast you can throw also.
                  12. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                    edited September 2014
                    Bukariin said:
                    Yeah, that's the trouble with addiction post-Transmutation, anybody with a system that can buffer both Conc/Trans can't be bothered by addiction, or at least not by somebody with a 2.5 second throw balance.

                    This was already "fixed".  (addiction consumes trans/conc cures, simultaneously)

                    Monks can riftlock, refer to my first post for explanation.  It's also extremely easy to get 1.3-ish second venom jab/throws. (@Bukariin)

                    _________

                    Dalran said:
                    Mind paralyse is so fast u can mind para/throw add/ mind para to stick addiction for a second or so
                    EDIT: that's somewhat dependent on how fast you can throw also.
                    No, it is not (ever*). 

                    *unless you are Jhui**


                    ** if you have eq gem and staff of nicator

                    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                      1. AegothAegoth Posts: 2,170Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                        Ernam said:
                        Aegoth said:
                        Except that @Kross completely schooled you with this point and proved you wrong.




                        This literally never happened.

                        Kross proved that it was possible to kill people with AXK (which I never disagreed with).  My counter-point was and is that in every example he provided, BBT would have also worked, and it would work 2-4 seconds faster.  Thus, AXK is 100% pointless, unless you are in a duel where you pinky-swear to not use BBT for some dumbfuck reason.

                        @Aegoth, care to tap into that vast amount of experience with monk combat that you have (or quote someone else's) to explain to us, using actual math, a single example of AXK killing someone faster that BBTs would, or killing someone when BBT wouldn't kill them?

                        Spoiler alert:

                        The only time AXK would ever kill anyone when BBT wouldn't is in team-ganks with multiple monks, due to the BBT timer.  However, even in that example, it's incredibly unlikely (as in, I've never seen it a single time, ever) that in team combat, you'd ever have 4-5 limbs simultaneously broken on a target, which is what is required to make AXK relevant, at all (as in, better than a kai choke or bashing combo).

                        Saying that AXK is 100% useless... and then going back and saying it's not. Thanks Ernam! Stay classy :)
                      2. DarklyreDarklyre Posts: 189Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
                        Aegoth said:
                        Ernam said:
                        Aegoth said:
                        Except that @Kross completely schooled you with this point and proved you wrong.




                        This literally never happened.

                        Kross proved that it was possible to kill people with AXK (which I never disagreed with).  My counter-point was and is that in every example he provided, BBT would have also worked, and it would work 2-4 seconds faster.  Thus, AXK is 100% pointless, unless you are in a duel where you pinky-swear to not use BBT for some dumbfuck reason.

                        @Aegoth, care to tap into that vast amount of experience with monk combat that you have (or quote someone else's) to explain to us, using actual math, a single example of AXK killing someone faster that BBTs would, or killing someone when BBT wouldn't kill them?

                        Spoiler alert:

                        The only time AXK would ever kill anyone when BBT wouldn't is in team-ganks with multiple monks, due to the BBT timer.  However, even in that example, it's incredibly unlikely (as in, I've never seen it a single time, ever) that in team combat, you'd ever have 4-5 limbs simultaneously broken on a target, which is what is required to make AXK relevant, at all (as in, better than a kai choke or bashing combo).

                        Saying that AXK is 100% useless... and then going back and saying it's not. Thanks Ernam! Stay classy :)
                        Well, to be fair, it's more like AXK is 99.5% useless, and we round up.
                        Ernam
                      3. KrossKross Posts: 779Member
                        Just to stop the endless tagging of my name so that I may forums in peace. Axk is just useless as a prone instakill on anyone sub 5k health now. Which it shouldn't be anyhow. Now, AXK is effectively more difficult to use reliably, that's all. Instead of the killswitch, you have to prep someone a bit better. It's untrue, however, that you can accomplish the same thing with an AXK as BBT's and faster. For Instance, I would probably use AXK against another monk, simply because if I prep the head and pent break (arms, legs, and head) then they can't use telepathy on me to hinder my enfeeble and AXK. They'll manage to cure one limb, possibly, but those other 4 contribute to an 75%+ unblockable damage attack after an enfeeble, and can be done well within tumble time. Most monks can numb and handle a double BBT on broken torso. That's not to say they can't do the same against an AXK, but just the ability to not have to worry about a properly placed batter or mind throw could make the difference.
                        Razha
                      4. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                        edited September 2014

                        How is a quad break of head/torso/legs not equivalent to that?  They still can't use telepathy, and you get enfeeble and 2+ torso break BBTs, which does significantly more damage than a 5 limb AXK (almost twice as much).

                        Numb would -easily- stop AXK, since it has a 6+ second balance.  BBT is way better vs a monk, for this reason, as far as I'm concerned.


                        That does bring me to one point that someone mentioned.  AXK is actually useful to have for people who go pure Int monk, which results in super low strength.  I don't really count this, since that build is more or less pointless for anything other than spamming kai-choke, though.

                        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                            Klendathu
                          1. BukariinBukariin Posts: 438Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                            Ernam said:

                            How is a quad break of head/torso/legs not equivalent to that?  They still can't use telepathy, and you get enfeeble and 2+ torso break BBTs, which does significantly more damage than a 5 limb AXK (almost twice as much).
                            Because you also get to mangle head, which is another world of hurt altogether.
                          2. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                            AXK balance is 6 seconds, with Nimble.  If the AXK combo itself doesn't kill them, then it is pointless.  They'll easily cure out before you get balance back - or at least enough to stand (and run/heal/etc).

                            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                  Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                              1. KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormPosts: 2,580Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                Ernam said:

                                How is a quad break of head/torso/legs not equivalent to that?  They still can't use telepathy, and you get enfeeble and 2+ torso break BBTs, which does significantly more damage than a 5 limb AXK (almost twice as much).

                                Numb would -easily- stop AXK, since it has a 6+ second balance.  BBT is way better vs a monk, for this reason, as far as I'm concerned.


                                That does bring me to one point that someone mentioned.  AXK is actually useful to have for people who go pure Int monk, which results in super low strength.  I don't really count this, since that build is more or less pointless for anything other than spamming kai-choke, though.
                                Int monk is also good for hunting, with a large pool of mana for transmute. I would know, having been one for a long time.

                                Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
                              2. BukariinBukariin Posts: 438Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                                edited September 2014
                                I thought it was five seconds but okay let's say six for fun

                                Target fully prepped:
                                Break arms(0sec) -> Break torso/head (2.5s) -> (chasing torso restore)Break legs (5.1s) -> AXK (7.6s) -> AXK (13.6s)

                                Restore arm(0sec) -> Mend arm (4s) -> Restore torso(5s) -> Mend torso(9s) -> Restore leg(10s) -> Mend leg(14s) -> Restore leg(15s) -> Mend leg/Stand(19s)

                                So that's two AXK combos, and you can almost shove three in.  Anyway you get to land that first AXK while torso, one arm, both legs and head are broken, so that's five breaks, and the second one should land before the first leg mends, which is four, and you get a head mangle, unless they do something dumb like heal head first and then you get to shove in an extra AXK or BBT.

                                I'm not saying it's better than BBT, but it's more viable than you make it out to be.
                              3. DarklyreDarklyre Posts: 189Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
                                Bukariin said:
                                I thought it was five seconds but okay let's say six for fun

                                Target fully prepped:
                                Break arms(0sec) -> Break torso/head (2.5s) -> (chasing torso restore)Break legs (5.1s) -> AXK (7.6s) -> AXK (13.6s)

                                Restore arm(0sec) -> Mend arm (4s) -> Restore torso(5s) -> Mend torso(9s) -> Restore leg(10s) -> Mend leg(14s) -> Restore leg(15s) -> Mend leg/Stand(19s)

                                So that's two AXK combos, and you can almost shove three in.  Anyway you get to land that first AXK while torso, one arm, both legs and head are broken, so that's five breaks, and the second one should land before the first leg mends, which is four, and you get a head mangle, unless they do something dumb like heal head first and then you get to shove in an extra AXK or BBT.

                                I'm not saying it's better than BBT, but it's more viable than you make it out to be.
                                That all assumes that they're staying in the room with you once you've broken their arms. If you have to chase them, add another second or two of chase time somewhere in the beginning and your numbers get thrown off significantly.
                              4. JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,120Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                                That isn't viable at all, Buka
                                Ernam
                              5. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                                Jovolo said:
                                That isn't viable at all, Buka

                                "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                                      Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                                  1. BukariinBukariin Posts: 438Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                                    They can run from BBTs too you know

                                    Though to be fair under the same assumptions you can squeeze three BBTs in, one of them with the torso break.
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