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Alchemist combat.

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  • SableSable Posts: 14Member
    PS: it only takes like 30 seconds to cure out of two tempered humours once you're away from us. If I don't catch you again within 6 seconds, I consider everything scrapped, as that's usually what happens.
  • DaslinDaslin The place with the oxygenPosts: 2,492Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Sable dude, just post what you're saying to me on Skype here already. This is the best place to get your damn ideas out and get support behind them maybe.
  • MizikMizik Posts: 2,027Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    30 seconds to clear two humors? I want a log to prove that.

    As far as hinder, Alchemist has the luxury of keeping a target permanently off herb balance. I find the battling ginger vs bloodroot on every single eq to be pretty effective at slowing down offense.
    image
    AthraxSimoln
  • HellenHellen Posts: 162Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I just wrack stupidity, since all the ginger spam has a good chance of making them tick over. It's more a matter of hammering them with Temper/Iron/Wrack Stupidity until you Temper Sanguine. At Sanguine, you can either go for the Melancholic or just focus on using inundate on Sanguine.

    One of four things will happen by that point, either you'll die since you couldn't tank your opponent's offense. You could alternate between nailing Inundate Sanguine/Iron/Stupidity and Temper/Iron/Stupidity until they get below 60% health and mana, use Temper/Aurify and win. Or you -also- temper the Melancholic, switch your inundating around and bleed the mana off, forcing them to tank the bleeding. Probably get Aurify here too. Or, the opponent gets tired of screwing around here and just leaves.

    I was considering using something like Inundate Melancholic/Aurify, but I seem to always screw that up. Since trying to use inundate drains -all- the fluids when you screw up (In my experience), there's no point. Better to just Temper/Aurify to catch yourself if you screw up, because by that time, it's probably been a while into the combat, my opponent probably has their fluid levels under control. It could work in theory, though.

    Finally, there's absolutely no point in using Truewrack, in my opinion. It uses fluids, and why would I use Truewrack when stupidity on it's own is clearly just the better choice, from my perspective? I'm trying to build those up, and Truewrack doesn't really add anything. Furthermore, I need the Humours those afflictions come from tempered. By that time, it'd be easier to keep inundating Sanguine and aim for Aurify.

    That's just the basics I use. There's definitely more to it, but some I just don't have the skills for it, like using corruption. That'd be a time saver on some levels. Not like I survive long enough to pull half this stuff off most of the time anyway. I usually get slaughtered before that point.
  • SableSable Posts: 14Member
    edited November 2013
    Here ya go, Mizik. 


    It starts at the very first temper and ends the moment I saw both humours cured out. No offense/defense other than the tempering, and I stopped to simulate them getting away from me. Watch the timestamp on the end.

    Also, that's what I do, Hellen. Stupidity works far better for me. It's won me more than one spar against much better opponents than myself, like Zinka when she was still a runie, and it still keeps me alive against dragons and such more often than not.
  • ZulahZulah Posts: 655Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Iocun said:
    Mako said:
    Iocun said:
    I almost never evade against alchemists. I usually go all out offensive.
    lol, come on now Iocun
    I just checked my logs. We fought three times 1v1 when you were alchemist. Last time I didn't evade or do any other defensive thing at all. Time before that I evaded several times, yes, but you shielded distinctly more often. Time before that, I evaded a single time, with you again shielding lots of times.

    Sometimes I evade, sure. That's mostly when I'm hypnoing and can't thus keep up any offence. But I still pretty much always remain much more offensive than the alchemist I'm fighting.

    Maybe you were counting the times when you teamed me though - well, yeah, I sometimes get a bit more defensive when I'm in a situation where I can be killed in a couple of seconds if I don't...
    How dare you use your class skills to avoid dying as intended!! For shame good sir!

    I've started learning a bit about Alchemist combat just from creating a GUI. It actually seems pretty fun and different then the norm which I like. If I didn't have a level 3 band and str/dex arties I'd almost consider switching just to play something unique.
  • HellenHellen Posts: 162Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Sable said:
    Also, that's what I do, Hellen. Stupidity works far better for me. It's won me more than one spar against much better opponents than myself, like Zinka when she was still a runie, and it still keeps me alive against dragons and such more often than not.
    I'm actually kinda sad that stupidity is the -only- way to go, really. If truewrack didn't have any of it's prerequisites, I might actually use it. But then, that might make it way too overpowered. Probably would, actually, with the sheer amount of herbs one would have to eat. As it stands, though, I wouldn't personally ever use Truewrack if only for the fact that it takes up fluids and required specific humours to be tempered. That fluid needs to be used on Inundate, not Truewrack.

    If it were something like, for every humour above one you have tempered, add another affliction, I'd use it a lot more. But again, way too overpowered. That's a lot of herbs being eaten, and the fluids would just skyrocket from that point, even with a fluid cost. I just can't find a use for Truewrack at all, not in the long run.

    And of course, if you screw up with Inundate, there goes every single drop of fluid! No mercy, there goes the last two minutes you've been working on. Might as well back out at that point. Missing with inundate should be enough of a penalty, since I'd have to wait until the next time I have humour balance, which by that time, I've probably already lost quite a lot of fluid just from that.

    Oh, and someone was talking about temper going through shields, which I could agree, I see how it might be seen as overpowered. But we have to give up our main attack, Iron, to hit you with Copper. So instead of our usual temper/iron/wrack getting you it's just temper/wrack. So it's not a huge thing, but it's more an issue that I've had battle where Iron literally decided that particular battle, because I got a guy down to 59% health, and inundate Sanguine alone wasn't doing anything.

    If it really -is- too much, I mean, we could have it so that if you're shielded, the fluids don't drain, or ginger doesn't work, or something. That'd be something, but they both be really hard to balance. Either way would really screw over one side, either the alchemist, or the opponent. The real question you need to be asking here though is, how much ginger should you have to eat to drop a fluid level? Too much an the alchemist gets nowhere. Too little, and the alchemist is overpowered.

    In the end though, as I stated above, I think it's fine as is. It's not like inundate where it was overpowered, being all like temper/iron/inundate. That's just insane. There's a reason inundate was moved to humour balance. Temper going through shield is fine right now, I think.

    As an aside, though, I do like how alchemy appears to be almost unaffected by any stats you have. I mean, except for Iron, it would make alchemists -way- too overpowered if Intelligence actually made temper give even more fluids or inundate sanguine made you bleed more or something. It makes no sense for any skill in alchemy or physiology aside from iron to be dictated by any stat. It would either be too overpowered, or on the lower end, it would make the alchemist useless in most combat.

    As usual, just a disclaimer that I'm maybe a mid-level combatant, and I'm missing some physiology skills, so any criticism and comments are greatly appreciated!
  • SableSable Posts: 14Member
    Personally, I don't bother with using Iron at all. While it can be nice, it's never been a deciding factor for me. By the time I get someone down to 59% health, they're bleeding for the rest on the next tick, assuming I haven't died before that. The only symbology I ever use in one-on-one is Copper, as I prefer to double up on the stupidity than to deal a sip's worth of damage. Every now and then I might start hitting Iron when I Inundate, but solely so they don't sip up all the mana they just used to stop the bleeding. 

    As for truewrack, I don't see the fluid change much of a problem. It's just their need to keep two humours tempered can be the problem that kills it. Most fights I'm in don't ever get to the point where I -can- temper two, as most opponents run after they see sanguine put up, before I can even inundate or anything. Given the number of abilities that completely ignore the homunculus, it can be a large hassle. As I pointed out, after a handful of seconds, if I haven't caught back up, then I'm resetting my offense completely, if only due to the speed systems work through eating antimony and how little effort it takes to keep running away once out of the room.
  • HellenHellen Posts: 162Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Sable said:
    Personally, I don't bother with using Iron at all. While it can be nice, it's never been a deciding factor for me. By the time I get someone down to 59% health, they're bleeding for the rest on the next tick, assuming I haven't died before that. The only symbology I ever use in one-on-one is Copper, as I prefer to double up on the stupidity than to deal a sip's worth of damage. Every now and then I might start hitting Iron when I Inundate, but solely so they don't sip up all the mana they just used to stop the bleeding. 

    As for truewrack, I don't see the fluid change much of a problem. It's just their need to keep two humours tempered can be the problem that kills it. Most fights I'm in don't ever get to the point where I -can- temper two, as most opponents run after they see sanguine put up, before I can even inundate or anything. Given the number of abilities that completely ignore the homunculus, it can be a large hassle. As I pointed out, after a handful of seconds, if I haven't caught back up, then I'm resetting my offense completely, if only due to the speed systems work through eating antimony and how little effort it takes to keep running away once out of the room.
    No point in using Copper until they touch shield, I think. Iron works better, if only for the fact that they'll have to choose between health or mana every so often. It doesn't even have to do that much damage, but I'd just rather be using Iron, let my highlight show that they hit the shield, and -then- use Copper, just to make sip balance get used up. If you're just using Copper all the time, you're missing out on that, in my opinion.

    Though what do you mean by "Double up on the stupidity"? Am I missing something here? You can only wrack once, Truewrack aside. Unless you're using an envenomed weapon or something, which is much different.

    I mostly agree with Truewrack, though combined with tempering in general, removing that limitation might bring it from mostly-useless to a little overpowered. Maybe. Hard to say, without actually trying it.
  • SeifurSeifur Posts: 64Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited November 2013
    "Though what do you mean by "Double up on the stupidity"? Am I missing something here? You can only wrack once, Truewrack aside. Unless you're using an envenomed weapon or something, which is much different."

    If you only do temper -> wrack, you get balance back quick enough to use wrack again before you get humour balance back.
    retired
    Arador
  • MakoMako Posts: 150Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Iocun said:
    Mako said:
    Iocun said:
    I almost never evade against alchemists. I usually go all out offensive.
    lol, come on now Iocun
    I just checked my logs. We fought three times 1v1 when you were alchemist. Last time I didn't evade or do any other defensive thing at all. Time before that I evaded several times, yes, but you shielded distinctly more often. Time before that, I evaded a single time, with you again shielding lots of times.

    Sometimes I evade, sure. That's mostly when I'm hypnoing and can't thus keep up any offence. But I still pretty much always remain much more offensive than the alchemist I'm fighting.

    Maybe you were counting the times when you teamed me though - well, yeah, I sometimes get a bit more defensive when I'm in a situation where I can be killed in a couple of seconds if I don't...
    The times I teamed you you never evaded cuz you died, and you always evade and run away from me Iocun, lies dont become us
    Iocun
  • EldEld Posts: 3,946Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2013
    Mako said:



    Iocun said:


    Mako said:


    Iocun said:

    I almost never evade against alchemists. I usually go all out offensive.


    lol, come on now Iocun

    I just checked my logs. We fought three times 1v1 when you were alchemist. Last time I didn't evade or do any other defensive thing at all. Time before that I evaded several times, yes, but you shielded distinctly more often. Time before that, I evaded a single time, with you again shielding lots of times.
    Sometimes I evade, sure. That's mostly when I'm hypnoing and can't thus keep up any offence. But I still pretty much always remain much more offensive than the alchemist I'm fighting.
    Maybe you were counting the times when you teamed me though - well, yeah, I sometimes get a bit more defensive when I'm in a situation where I can be killed in a couple of seconds if I don't...


    The times I teamed you you never evaded cuz you died, and you always evade and run away from me Iocun, lies dont become us

    In the absence of logs, @Iocun clearly wins this, as no one is going to trust a six-fingered man.
    MelodieBalkinAepas
  • IocunIocun Posts: 3,505Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mako said:
    The times I teamed you you never evaded cuz you died, and you always evade and run away from me Iocun, lies dont become us
    Did you also check your logs then, or are you just arguing based on your gut feeling?
  • SilasSilas Posts: 2,529Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Alchemist combat is pretty stupid. Eating ginger for the next 20 minutes after even a brief fight with one is so obnoxious.

    JhuiAchimrst
  • SableSable Posts: 14Member
    Again, it doesn't take very long to cure out of humours. Sure, it's annoying how much you have to eat, but, hey. I find it annoying that if I fight a monk, I have to win before the first break or I'm screwed. Or that evade/tumble/mountjump/backflip gets people away from me without any regard to my one physical hindrance ability, while others like duanathar and grove return, have something like a 40% chance to be stopped. Or that knights with rapiers can loldmg me out for whatever reason. Or that retardation, while it screws most people over, absolutely obliterates my chances of a win as long as my target stays on it if I don't have an arte bow. 

    Alchemist needs a bit of work. It's got plenty of holes and a bunch of really cool features and ideas. It's different. Hopefully soon it can be worked on more, without making it too broken.
  • AnedhelAnedhel Posts: 2,367Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You kidding? It takes a stupidly disproportionate amount of time to heal it, compared to what it takes to attack a humor. It's something like 6:1, almost, the time it takes, if not more. That's ridiculous.
  • SableSable Posts: 14Member
    6:1? Did you -read- that log I posted? Just in case, here's another that's slightly different, in that they don't cure at all until -after- I've tempered, so the fluids aren't dropped any outside of the passive timer on it.


    Just in case you don't see the timestamps, that's 10 seconds to temper it up and 10 seconds to cure. It only seems like it takes longer, because of how much antimony/ginger it takes to cure it. It's 1:1. MAYBE 1.08:1, if you consider lag times.
  • SidoniaSidonia Posts: 407Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited November 2013
    Sable said:
    I find it annoying that if I fight a monk, I have to win before the first break or I'm screwed. Or that evade/tumble/mountjump/backflip gets people away from me without any regard to my one physical hindrance ability
    Backflip/mountjump don't bypass homunculus torso. I dunno why you're dying to monks on a single break. Don't even need to address the tumble comment.

    tl;dr: post is wrong

    edit:
    Sable said:
    6:1? Did you -read- that log I posted? Just in case, here's another that's slightly different, in that they don't cure at all until -after- I've tempered, so the fluids aren't dropped any outside of the passive timer on it.


    Just in case you don't see the timestamps, that's 10 seconds to temper it up and 10 seconds to cure. It only seems like it takes longer, because of how much antimony/ginger it takes to cure it. It's 1:1. MAYBE 1.08:1, if you consider lag times.
     ~15 seconds of ginger to cure fluid levels after you temper a humour (which if I recall drops fluid levels and means he's nowhere near high fluid levels), without any herb balance being used on wrack afflictions (which come at no cost while tempering).
    Isaiah
  • SableSable Posts: 14Member
    I'm not dying on a single break, but one break is generally followed by two more, and triple breaks can be quite deadly against monks. tl;dr just means you didn't get the context, so, by all means, that post isn't wrong at all. Read and you'll see why picking out two sentences is neglectful to a full conversation. Also, on the topic of backflip/mountjump: I've never had torso stop it, so, if it does that's nice. My experience tells me it's not, but that's just my experience. I can't exactly argue with it.

    And, yes, tempering a humour does lower fluid levels a bit, but if there's no tempered humour, fluid levels are negligible. Just means I'll take slightly less time to hit a humour. The post before was comparing the time to cure fluid levels compared to the time to attack a humour. Not fluid levels with no attacked humour. Again, read the conversation and understand the context.
  • EldEld Posts: 3,946Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sable said:
    I'm not dying on a single break, but one break is generally followed by two more, and triple breaks can be quite deadly against monks. tl;dr just means you didn't get the context, so, by all means, that post isn't wrong at all. Read and you'll see why picking out two sentences is neglectful to a full conversation. Also, on the topic of backflip/mountjump: I've never had torso stop it, so, if it does that's nice. My experience tells me it's not, but that's just my experience. I can't exactly argue with it.

    And, yes, tempering a humour does lower fluid levels a bit, but if there's no tempered humour, fluid levels are negligible. Just means I'll take slightly less time to hit a humour. The post before was comparing the time to cure fluid levels compared to the time to attack a humour. Not fluid levels with no attacked humour. Again, read the conversation and understand the context.
    The tl;dr was indicating that that was a shorter version of what he'd just said, not that he hadn't read your comment, I think.
    Sidonia
  • SidoniaSidonia Posts: 407Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Sable said:
    stuff
    Temper 2 humours, temper 4-5 more times and then watch how long it takes to cure out of that. If that's under 30 seconds, I'll eat my hat. If it's significantly less than a minute, I'll be surprised.
  • ZulahZulah Posts: 655Member @ - Epic Achaean
    edited November 2013
    When I was making my recent Alchemist system I had to do a lot of timing tests for making an efficient liquid tracker that would fall off on it's own. So I made an alchemist, dumped some creds into her and these were my results:

    A single temper on target will put them at "Slightly elevated" which is level 2 (out of 5 levels max) It will fall off to level 1 within 10 seconds without any curing. From there it will take 1 minute 2 seconds to return to normal internal fluid level with NO curing. Just natural decay.

    Again from normal fluid levels a single temper on target with healing will take them roughly 18 seconds to fully cure. (10 antimony flakes/ginger)

    Pushing a target to full level 5 (Critically elevated internal fluid) without them healing until that point will take roughly 2 and a half minutes to cure spamming flakes/ginger starting at full

    If they start healing the moment you start tempering. You get roughly 2 levels of fluid per each temper minus healing = 1 and 1/2 fluid levels easily (with them spam curing) per temper.

    So, it takes you 4 tempers (Temper balance 4.5 seconds) while they are healing to get someone to full. At which point they will need no less then 2 minutes of herb eating to cure out of (not counting other special class curing methods)

    So recap: takes you 18 seconds to fully temper a humour. Takes them then 2.5 minutes to cure it if you don't continue or throw in other afflictions. Hope the math helps!

    Edit: Also I noticed just how easy it is to walk away and screw an Alchemist. Torso/Mount Block/Icewall all very easy to get around. And Ether Displace with a 9 second cast is far to slow to catch an evade even if you hit it the moment they evade/leap/mount jump/etc etc. Simple fact, fighting an Alchemist: walk away every 4th/5th Temper and they will never get a fully tempered humor, GG. At least classes using limb prep can pick up on limb damage where they left off.
    Silas
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,259Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Make sure you express your concerns in the latest classleads! This sort of feedback is the stuff that needs to get discussed higher up for things to change properly.
  • SenaSena Posts: 3,821Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Zulah Are you taking into account the fact that the more humours you have tempered, the more effective ginger/antimony will be? Your numbers seem to assume no humours are tempered (and match mine in that case), which is the worst-case scenario in terms of how long it takes to drop back to normal, but also harmless.
  • AradorArador Posts: 1,693Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah the more humours you temper the faster the drain is. Apart from the fact that people will run after you temper a humour or two, if you tempet more of them before they manage to run, the fluids drain even faster.

    I would like to see ways for alchemists to matter more early in the fight and be less godly by the end unless you run like hell.

    VastusJovolo
  • AnedhelAnedhel Posts: 2,367Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited November 2013
    18s to fully temper, roughly two minutes to cure an annoyingly abused humor. Lessee. Eighteen times six is one-hundred-and-eight. So six-to-one or even higher. I'm glad I didn't have to spend so much time explaining that. :)
  • AepasAepas Posts: 1,619Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I just hate fighting alchemists period. I have never found enjoyment in it, as it is very one sided. You either destroy them or get destroyed, in my personal experiences.

    I found druid to be far more effective against it than runewarden though. Perhaps the speed of the limb breaks helped a lot.

    Still, alchemists are not fun to fight against, ever. Imho
    Replies the scorpion: "It's my nature..."
    VastusBorranHasar
  • SianaSiana Posts: 44Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    What do tempered humors do? What does the fluid level change?
  • VayneVayne Rhode IslandPosts: 1,897Member
    Tempered humours have varying effects based on the humour and also set up for various other attacks, mainly the instakills
    image
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