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Sasiya said:Knights being able to use longswords, broadswords, or scimitars and be as competitive as with rapiers is not inherently a bad thing.
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@Nizaris said:Sasiya: To the bolded: this would remove all incentive for forging. Forgers need to be able to create weapons of variable quality; this is what makes the skill potentially worth it.I agree that putting a flat balance recovery for the skill is a terrible idea. I think it is an equally terrible idea to argue that rapiers should always be the fastest weapon in the game, because then there is no incentive to use another weapon type in today's Achaea combat. Ideally, all the Knight classes would be revamped, but this is a huge project compared to simply allowing each weapon type to be competitive by mirroring stats. There is nothing awful or bad or terrible in this. In fact, the current variations in stat distribution could easily be kept by using different weapon templates.Also, I am not convinced that forgers -need- the current incarnation of the skillset to make the skill potentially worth it. I am going to point at Aetolia's forging as an alternate and very viable example, even though it has its own issues. The fact that they got rid of to-hit and added armour penetration as a stat instead was just icing on the cake (even though the numbers were horribly skewed in favour of damage anyway).Knights being able to use longswords, broadswords, or scimitars and be as competitive as with rapiers is not inherently a bad thing.In fact, it makes less sense to me that a Knight would go into battle with a rapier than with any of the other swords.
@Nizaris said:Sasiya: To the bolded: this would remove all incentive for forging. Forgers need to be able to create weapons of variable quality; this is what makes the skill potentially worth it.
Does every point in the speed stat count equally or are there diminishing returns above a certain number?
The issue, like Mizik pointed out with his first post, is that knight
classes are tied to so many fundamental game mechanics (The
everyone-can-use-it Weaponry skill, salve balances, herb balances,
writhing off blades) that are not knight-specific, to make any kind of
meaningful change to the class or its tactics means a complete re-design
of knights and how they work, or a complete overhaul of the game and
how it works. You can't just take rapier speed away from them, or our
ability to land disembowels and vivisects becomes nil, and just raising
other weapons up to rapier status wouldn't change anything except the
text that scrolls by.The best idea I can come up with is take
the Blademaster approach and remove DSL's damage, speed, and accuracy
dependencies on weapon stats and give it its own inherent values that
are able to be balanced freely of Weaponry mechanics. (Weaponry damage
could still be used to determine limb damage, so limb counting doesn't
become universal and easily anticipated!) Next, give each
weapon bonuses and penalties that modify DSL's base speed and damage,
any weapon less accuracy than another would just mark it for disregard
by the players) and give each a "perk" that would make weapon choice
than flavor and add a level of
tactical variety, but that wouldn't put one weapon clearly above the
others:Battleaxes: extra damage, slower speed, could ignore some damage reduction (stacking with Mastery) to help "damage knights." Broadswords: no bonuses, no penalties, could break limbs faster than other bladed weapons on account of their weight.Longswords: no bonues, no penalties, could...Lunge/Arc/Raze faster. (I can't think of a good one) Scimitars:
no bonuses, no penalties, could deal extra disembowel damage because of
their curve. (Could become Paladin's starting proficiency, given its
origins)Rapiers: less damage, faster speed, could have a chance to
bypass parry (a la Airfist/Vinewreath), but deal less disembowel damage to account for that easy setup.Lastly,
make knights SPECIALISE IN a weapon like Bards have to do for
instruments in order to get that weapon perk. They can learn all the
proficiencies and use all the weapons they want, but only get the perk
from their specialization, so
you can't use broadswords to prep the first limbs faster, switch to
rapiers to bypass parry on the last limb, and then switch to
scimitars to guarantee your disembowel kill, etc.I'm not good enough with
numbers to offer how STR health-scaling should factor in, but it feels
like if battleaxes were on one end of the spectrum with an average 1400
damage on a 2.5 second balance, rapiers on the other with an average 700
damage at a 1.8 second balance, and longswords/broadswords/scimitars
somewhere in the middle at 1000 every 2.2, we'd be pretty close.
Battleaxes would become the king of damage (500 damage/sec) plus their
damage reduction bypass, and could now actually use venoms, but they
can't disembowel, so they'd become very momentum based. Rapier damage
(370 damage/sec) would get dropped to about about 80% of what it is,
now, but they can make up for that with prefarar stacks and other venom
use, as well as the ease of limb-setups for burst damage. Longswords,
broadswords, scimitars would live in the middle, (450 damage/sec)
without the damage reduction bypass of axes or the speed of rapiers, but
would still have their own unique advantages and could still be fast enough to
stack venoms and disembowel/vivisect.That's the best I have.
They're only crappy/useless in the eye of the players though. If pretty much every blacksmith who puts weapons on the market is transcendent in forging, often also has a hammer, and if there are enough people willing to pay high prices for exceptionally good weapons leading to massive amounts of weapons being forged and only the best few kept, our expectation of what constitutes a "good weapon" will naturally shoot up.
I'd be happy using BBT in fullplate.