Knight Weaponry choices, for consideration from the Arena thread

Trey

- Keep forged stats the way they are for every item when you're doing normal forging. We'll see why later down.

- Give chivalry a two-handed version of DSL, or just change DSL to allow certain two-handers listed below. Make it absolutely mechanically identical, where having one broken arm has you doing only one slash/venom, two broken arms nixes the attack entirely, and damage and limb damage calculated the exact same way, using the damage of the weapon you are wielding as both 'hand A' and 'hand B' for figuring out limbcounters. This would require next to nothing in the way of balancing. Besides, sure, it means that knights need not search for two identically awesome weapons, but I don't think that artefact sales would take that big a hit, the people who want to dual-wield can still do so, and while it means that a given person only needs to find that -one- crazy 247 speed two-hander to go hog wild, it also means that a given newbie/combat hopeful only has to find that -one- 227-231 he likes and not worry about matching damage, or finding another with ok to-hit, etc. Making combat more accessible for more people is not a bad thing.

- Add something into Forging for a wide variety of weapons, AB FORGING WEIGHTING.

- - FORGE FOR <item> SWIFT - Anything in the list below can be the item in question. Causes the process to immediately disregard normal base stats and number of refines and instead makes the forged item identically equivalent to rapier for potential stats. FORGE until formed and refined fully as normal.

- - FORGE FOR <item> DEFT - As above, except identical base stats/refines to scimitar.

- - FORGE FOR <item> TRUE - As above, except identical base stats/refines to longsword.

- - FORGE FOR <item> STOUT - As above, except identical base stats/refines to broadsword.

- - FORGE FOR <item> MIGHTY - As above, except identical base stats/refines to battleaxe.

Doing any of the above puts a flag on the weapon, much like Songbless does for rapiers, where only a Runewarden, Paladin or Infernal may wield the weapon. This way, it will allow for a wide variety of (purely cosmetic) flavor for knights who might want swift battleaxes or stout scimitars while keeping things like 190 damage rapiers out of the hands of a bard. Normal versions of all these weapons can be tweaked now without the need for a three class collateral (a valid point brought up by @Mizik). I do recognize that most people will disregard almost everything but the SWIFT and MIGHTY versions of the ability. This is, I think, fine, but I left the other stuff in because there's always that asshole who wants to try out longswords (or longsword stats!) out to be different, and who are we to deny him that opportunity for style? List of weapons is as follows -

1-handed

-----------------------

Rapier

Scimitar

Longsword

Broadsword

Battleaxe

Spear

Trident

Dirk

Flail

Morningstar

Mace

Warhammer**

2-handed

-----------------------

Longspear*

Falchion*

Bastard

Halberd

Bardiche

Maul*

* = denotes a new weapon type. I figure some people might want a two-handed scimitar or spear, and one-handed hammers are pro. (I'm aware that falchions are not two-handed scimitars. Blame DnD for the term. Weapons in Achaea already don't conform to norms in most instances).

** = make one-handed, which is what warhammers -were- for the most part, and add Mauls in to replace warhammer as the two-handed hammer

If a weapon on this list is not one of the original knight weapons, they will not work with DSL or its two-handed equivalent if they are not 'flagged' by the WEIGHTING ability in Forging. Sorry guys, I know, but no knights with dual Thoth's. Offer artefact alternatives under one of the five WEIGHTING category weapons, in levels 1, 2 and 3 as normal for each of the weapon types listed above.

For the blunt-type weapons listed above, anything flagged by the Weighting ability that deals blunt damage loses 50% limb damage and is now envenomable. For any naysayers who would like to insinuate that blunt weapons can't deliver venoms, there are plenty of poisons that can enter the body through the skin, and if you'd like to claim that I can't cause a bleeding wound with a warhammer you're welcome to come to my house and take one for science.

Make weapon proficiencies still cost 100 lessons. It's a fairly trivial cost after one buys the more essential things, and I don't want to devalue the lessons anyone who has a wide variety of proficiencies has spent. Instead of forcing Knights into an arbitrary proficiency, allow them to SPECIALISE IN one of the weapon types listed above, denoting what they favored when they first learned their skills.

I realize that everything in the above list likely isn't perfect, but everyone's throwing their two cents in, and I thought that Mizik's idea was great, but a wider selection of things won't hurt people. If the above changes were even considered by @Tecton, @Cardan and company, I'd also suggest that Knights who already possess at least one artefact weapon be given -one- free tradein at full value -only- for another artefact weapon. (i.e. A given person could trade an Eagle's Scream for a level 2 Battleaxe with the SWIFT, DEFT, TRUE, STOUT or MIGHTY category of stat ranges). I do however also recognize that revenue is revenue, and that could potentially stifle sales that the artiewhores among us might be responsible for.

Edited to both move to the Dais for consideration, and to add in blunt weapons for consideration because quite a few people told me 'Yeah, I like your idea a lot but why aren't you showing love for blunt weapons?'

Also, tl;dr - The weapons rework seems to be long in the works, and this would add cosmetic variety while preserving combat balance as it stands now.

Rispok

One factor for consideration may be the stun that trolls have on blunt weapons. How would venoms on a 247 speed maul work, let's say, with 2 chances to stun every 1.7 seconds? Artefacts would also need a rework with this system. Should the 2-handers cost 3200cr per, for example?


That being said, I don't really care for the idea nor do I particularly dislike it.

Pardinen

I wish there was a way to wield some things two-handed instead of one-handed for more oomph. Y'know, like a Bastard sword is just a little longer than a Longsword and CAN be wielded one handed by someone with the proper training, whereas a Greatesword or Two-hander NEEDS to be wielded in two hands (I think this is what Delosian Bastard Swords are SUPPOSED to be, so it annoys me). But I have no idea how these sorts of things work, so meh...

Edit: I would be fine with if you could wield a Bastard Sword in one hand and a Shield in the other, but not another Bastard, only a smaller weapon or none at all.

Jules

I'm just super curious to know any general idea of what they do have in the works... but maybe they really don't know yet.  I just want to know if it's going to make sense to purchase artefact weapons, and if so, which ones will make the most sense. 

EDIT:  I'm definitely behind something that makes "pretty good" (a definition that's a moving target depending on what sort of changes admin makes) forged weapons much more widespread.  If two-handed DSL helps that along, well, that's a step in the right direction.  I can't speak either way on the rest of the idea in the OP, but even I can see that that is at least one way to make quality forged weapons more available, just by spreading them more thinly (in theory, doubling availability).  A lot of players have money to spend on nice rapiers, but not hours upon hours of *time*.  And while they have money, and are willing to spend it, most probably aren't in the "spends 450 credits on a badass (maybe even too badass) decaying sword" category - besides, that has its own time requirements because you've got to seek out those weapons and bid on them.  Anyway, I have no idea how they might decide to do it, but I hope they do.  

Rangor

When I see an opponent coming at me with battleaxes, broadswords or now a bastardsword. I expect him to be dealing out a lot of damage. 

I don't like the picture of a knight tickling away at me at supersonic speed with a pair of battleaxes.

Horatio

lol @ weighted Logosian axes with Soulpiercer speed

Jhui

I can't really think of another way to rework weaponry without completing changing knight combat.  This way at least adds flavor and variety in weapon choice.

People will always choose max speed/min damage if they know what they're doing, so this seems like the only way to not have a default weapon choice.

Rangor said:

When I see an opponent coming at me with battleaxes, broadswords or now a bastardsword. I expect him to be dealing out a lot of damage. 

I don't like the picture of a knight tickling away at me at supersonic speed with a pair of battleaxes.

downside here is that you generally see the opposite.  Soulpiercers are the norm for damage, too!

With the changes, rapiers would be bard-only weapons, and knights would likely choose between battleaxe/broadsword/longsword/scimitars?

I could see variations of these 4 weapons striking at the same speed or same damage.

Trey

Could even go rapiers, or rapier and dirk, or spear and sword. The point is making the aesthetic choice have no bearing for combat mechanics, which is appropriate.

Iocun

I'm never quite fond of completely separating mechanics from aesthetics, mostly because it serves to give combat mechanics an even more OOC feel than they already have. I don't quite like the idea of an Achaea where there's a distinct division between RP/aesthetics and gameplay/mechanics, as for me, optimally, the two should always come together and strengthen each other. I want RP aspects not to be just decorative, but have an actual impact on how this game works. This, to me, creates a much deeper and more realistic game world.

I originally opposed ideas for statpacks for the same reason. I do now think that introducing them was a good idea regardless, but races still have some influence on stats. A grook is still weaker, in average, than a troll, and should be. So while we can make some mechanical decisions independent of our race choices, we are still limited to some degree by the basic "biological properties" of each race. And arguably, it's more feasible for a grook to get very muscular than for a rapier to be as heavy-hitting as a battleaxe, since in this latter case the very reason that different weapon types were developed in the first place, was to give them different properties as weapons.

If we want to make such a change to weaponry, I'd prefer if it went in a similar direction then: not to completely dissolve all ties between weapon type and weapon stats, but simply allow for some variation within certain constraints.

I could very well imagine scimitars/longswords/broadswords having very similar stats, or hammers/flails/morningstars, or battleaxes/bastard swords, but I don't want a rapier to potentially work the same way as a morningstar or vice-versa, and I don't want envenomed warhammers. Yes, I know you could possibly give me a bleeding wound with a warhammer or whatever, but in practice, the idea to use a warhammer to quickly and efficiently deliver venoms just seems silly.

I think one of the primary gripes is that knights all wield rapiers, and rapiers don't feel very high-fantasy-knightly at all.

So just remove rapiers as dslable weapons and speed up dsls a bit to make up for it. Further, give similar weapon types like scimitars/longswords/broadswords identical base stats, making the choice between them aesthetic.

I'd be also fine with introducing single-twohanded-weapon dsls, although certain issues with it need to be considered to not give them any unfair advantages.

Trey

Why limit yourself to three types, though? The vast majority of weapons in forging are either under-utilized or ignored completely. This would at least add potential for use for quite a few of them, as well as new tricks for old dogs.

Iocun

I'm not saying it has to be three types, exactly, but I think it would suffice. Something like shortswords to be added as well in the general "single handed swords" category. Maces for the "blunt weapons". Bardiches for the "heavy hitters". It would still have to be decided on how to handle one-handedness vs. two-handedness though: might be best to make all the weapons in the heavy-hitting category two-handed, and all the ones in the other categories one-handed. That means making warhammers one-handed, while making battleaxes two-handed.

But I also don't think a knight needs to be able to use all weapon types effectively. Things like tridents, spears, rapiers, handaxes and dirks are already utilized by other classes. Lances have a speciality purpose in jousting. Daggers could probably be improved slightly to make them a better fast-venom-delivery method for classes without a class ability to do so and often need one (e.g. occultists, magi, etc.). Which leaves us with javelins and clubs.

I think clubs can be kept as a rather "useless" weapon. It's the inept forging ability and can be a nice "novelty weapon". Javelins... dunno. I'm sure we can come up with something nice for them.

Rispok

Iocun said:

A bunch of stuff

I think clubs can be kept as a rather "useless" weapon. It's the inept forging ability and can be a nice "novelty weapon". Javelins... dunno. I'm sure we can come up with something nice for them.

I was under the impression that Jesters became good once they bought lv3 javelins.

The other solution is we add a new class that is ranged, with forging. This will be the catalyst for all the weaponry changes. Instead of fullplate, they have machine guns.

Jacen

I know Penwize one shots people with his javelin, though... its Penwize

Cooper

I do not support making all weapons flavor only. Battleaxes are not supposed to be fast, rapiers are not supposed to do huge damage, etc. We can find a better solution than this, and one that isn't just a bandaid fix.

Tvistor

I agree with the man with the hat.

Trey

@Iocun - I have two questions regarding your last post. Is there a reason two-handers should all be 'brute' rather than 'finesse'? And regarding weapon types already used by other classes - is there something about knights utilizing them that is undesirable?

@Cooper - I understand your position, but I disagree insofar as this being a bandaid fix. Diversifies flavor while leaving substance unchanged.

Tvistor

I would hope that diversified flavor could actually involve some different combat mechanics (however difficult the change would be) versus effectively just allowing people to sub out 'rapier' in the DSL line for something else.

Iocun

Trey said:

@Iocun - I have two questions regarding your last post. Is there a reason two-handers should all be 'brute' rather than 'finesse'?

Well, one reason why one would wield a weapon with two hands is because it's heavy, and heavier weapons tend to be slower than light ones. But the main reason I wrote it like that was just to simplify things. But sure, I guess one could have two-handed variants in the other categories too, that doesn't matter terribly much to me. Wouldn't even mind letting people hold a longsword with both hands and dsl with that, really.

I just want to keep the kinds of weapons you need to wield with both hands because of heaviness out of the "fast weapons" category.

And regarding weapon types already used by other classes - is there something about knights utilizing them that is undesirable?

In most cases, not really, but I also don't think it needs to be viable for them. I don't think there's anything wrong with a class having a certain imagery attached to it which you can't just bend in all ways as far as you like. Part of that is that classes use different weapons, different armour, different abilities, which don't just work differently mechanics-wise, but actually have a different appearance that is specific to their class. The ability to customise your character in all sorts of ways is nice, but it's also good if that has certain limits that force us to stay somewhat close to a common Achaean theme, where we aren't just uniquely mix-and-matched individuals, but also parts of established societies, traditions, cultures, where certain standards are prevalent.

So, while it is certainly possible in Achaea to own and wield a longsword as a serpent, I don't think Achaea should encourage this by rewarding it with mechanical benefits, nor should it have to do so for knights who want to wield a dagger or a spear.

Trey

Iocun said:

Trey said:

@Iocun - I have two questions regarding your last post. Is there a reason two-handers should all be 'brute' rather than 'finesse'?

Well, one reason why one would wield a weapon with two hands is because it's heavy, and heavier weapons tend to be slower than light ones. But the main reason I wrote it like that was just to simplify things. But sure, I guess one could have two-handed variants in the other categories too, that doesn't matter terribly much to me. Wouldn't even mind letting people hold a longsword with both hands and dsl with that, really.

I just want to keep the kinds of weapons you need to wield with both hands because of heaviness out of the "fast weapons" category.

And regarding weapon types already used by other classes - is there something about knights utilizing them that is undesirable?

In most cases, not really, but I also don't think it needs to be viable for them. I don't think there's anything wrong with a class having a certain imagery attached to it which you can't just bend in all ways as far as you like. Part of that is that classes use different weapons, different armour, different abilities, which don't just work differently mechanics-wise, but actually have a different appearance that is specific to their class. The ability to customise your character in all sorts of ways is nice, but it's also good if that has certain limits that force us to stay somewhat close to a common Achaean theme, where we aren't just uniquely mix-and-matched individuals, but also parts of established societies, traditions, cultures, where certain standards are prevalent.

So, while it is certainly possible in Achaea to own and wield a longsword as a serpent, I don't think Achaea should encourage this by rewarding it with mechanical benefits, nor should it have to do so for knights who want to wield a dagger or a spear.

Good points, for the most part. I guess where I'm butting heads is two-fold. The idea that all two-handed weapons are heavier or slower would both limit variety (which you have a salient point in the fact that it -should- have limits) and ignore things like how fast @Namino moves in that video on player pics.

I've also seen Knights as being the masters of the most weapon types in the game. We're clearly second banana when it comes to a single, one-handed sword re: blademaster, but we're peerless when it comes to picking something random up and using it effectively.

Iocun

Knights would still have significantly more viable weapon options with my suggestion than any other class. If you want even more, I won't mind adding even other weapons to those categories. But something like a spear or club simply doesn't really strike me as a "knightly" weapon.

And yeah, I'm not saying all weapons that are wielded in two hands are necessarily heavy or slow. Say, a katana, is wielded with both hands, but not any heavier than many European swords that are typically wielded in one hand, plus there are several kinds of swords/axes/maces etc. which could be viably wielded in one hand or in both, and in the latter case you probably could use it with more speed than when wielding it in just one hand.

I was just trying to say that heaviness can quite often be the reason for wielding something with two hands and that, if that is indeed the case for a particular weapon, this particular two-handed weapon shouldn't also be a very fast one at the same time. As I said though: I don't particularly mind adding two-handed weapons to the other categories as well, as long as it makes sense for them to be reasonably fast.

One-handedness vs. two-handedness isn't really all that crucial to my suggestion anyways, but can be discussed independently.

Namino

Seven foot long greatswords weigh only three and a half pounds.

Weight is never directly the reason for two handed wielding. I can wield a three pound mace in one hand more easily than the Meyer Longsword in that video. It's the distribution of the weight that's important. I *can* swing my Meyer's Longsword with one hand, but the control isn't there because the weight of the tip is axially quite distant from my point of control at the grip. Length of the weapon is way more important than weight. A ten foot long stave is not going to do well in one hand, even if it only weighs a few pounds.

Anyway, what is this thread about?

Daslin

I still say I'd like to see a knight use two clubs. Seriously.

Synbios

Rangor said:

When I see an opponent coming at me with battleaxes, broadswords or now a bastardsword. I expect him to be dealing out a lot of damage. 

I don't like the picture of a knight tickling away at me at supersonic speed with a pair of battleaxes.

Why not? Here's supersonic bastard sword action for you.

Nakari

to allow for some limits within customizability, why not limit some of the weighting categories the op suggests. Like, ban mace and maul and war hammer from being weighted as 'swift'. While this would still limit quite a few weapons (and they could still be seen as an alternative to axes), it would still preserve quite a bit of the weapon types without a heave, two handed hammer swinging as fast as a mace.

Katzchen

I like @Iocun's idea of getting rid of rapiers for knights completely, and rebalancing other weapons to go with this. I would love to use long swords if they were effective.

Tarkanian

i'm just wishing that at this point, the coders could give us a glimpse of what they have/have planned so far. there are very good player ideas floating around, and it'd be great if those ideas could be shared, tweaked, changed, and applied through the combined effort of both coders and players.

Tesha

Now that I think about it, there are a lot of influences that would make this really hectic on the game's admin. Rapiers are kind of girly so they work for Tesha, anyways. I also like to get a hint at what to expect when someone wields really huge hulking battleaxes or broadswords too, so there is that to take into consideration as well. It is not a huge thing, just a little thing to keep in mind.

Sasiya

Okay.

Unless Knight combat is altered where different skills will have different effects based on the weapon you are wielding, you will end up with people picking the fastest weapon available. Always. This means that every Knight in the game will be wearing a fullplate armour and wielding rapiers, but for some reason this is perfectly fine for people like Rangor who doesn't want to be tickled by battleaxes. How the heck do a Knight even fight wielding two rapiers? In fullplate armour? From horseback? How is this picture any more wrong than a Knight wielding two longswords or two battleaxes in combat? I think it's kind of unfair to the playerbase to say that 'you can't use knight weapons such as longswords or broadswords because they're not supposed to be used in knight combat because they're slow'.

For all intents and purposes, doubleslash could have a flat two seconds balance recovery for any weapon, and it would not be different at all compared to how most other muds/MMOs do it. Just compare damage per second (or afflictions per second in this case) with flavour in any MMO or mud and you will see that the most efficient weapon in terms of damage wins out every time. There are solutions that will allow people to wield whatever weapon they want and still be competitive in combat. Revamping the Knight classes probably takes more effort than simply allowing each weapon to have the same speed/to-hit/damage regardless of its weapon type.

You say no to speed Knights with longswords? I say no to Knights with rapiers. Rapiers belong to musketeers, bards, and pirates.

Tesha

Different people will have different tastes, which is fine, but I think that trying to draw comparisons to typical WoW type games would be a bad idea. There is still a lot I do not understand, but I do know that introducing a 'flat' balance to doubleslash would be a mistake. One of the things I enjoy about Achaea is it is not just a copy/paste of everything else, it is okay that the game is different. How do Knights fight with two rapiers in fullplate from horseback? Suspension of disbelief, the same way you carry a 2000 pound elephant when you kill it. If you do not enjoy it, then use longswords, scold other knights who use two rapiers. React to it, it might be fun.

Rebalancing everything purely for flavor sounds like a lot of effort, I would hope that any changes go further than aesthetics.

Nizaris

Sasiya said:

Okay.

Unless Knight combat is altered where different skills will have different effects based on the weapon you are wielding, you will end up with people picking the fastest weapon available. Always. This means that every Knight in the game will be wearing a fullplate armour and wielding rapiers, but for some reason this is perfectly fine for people like Rangor who doesn't want to be tickled by battleaxes. How the heck do a Knight even fight wielding two rapiers? In fullplate armour? From horseback? How is this picture any more wrong than a Knight wielding two longswords or two battleaxes in combat? I think it's kind of unfair to the playerbase to say that 'you can't use knight weapons such as longswords or broadswords because they're not supposed to be used in knight combat because they're slow'.

For all intents and purposes, doubleslash could have a flat two seconds balance recovery for any weapon, and it would not be different at all compared to how most other muds/MMOs do it. Just compare damage per second (or afflictions per second in this case) with flavour in any MMO or mud and you will see that the most efficient weapon in terms of damage wins out every time. There are solutions that will allow people to wield whatever weapon they want and still be competitive in combat. Revamping the Knight classes probably takes more effort than simply allowing each weapon to have the same speed/to-hit/damage regardless of its weapon type.

You say no to speed Knights with longswords? I say no to Knights with rapiers. Rapiers belong to musketeers, bards, and pirates.

@Sasiya: To the bolded: this would remove all incentive for forging. Forgers need to be able to create weapons of variable quality; this is what makes the skill potentially worth it.

As for the discussion at hand, and granted that I am not a knight, and have no desire to be one, due in no small part to the amount of expense needed to be effective, my opinions here may not be valid or based on all of the facts.

That said, I see the problem as being unfortunately quite polar. Either, (1) there needs to be a complete system overhaul to allow for variety in such a way that flavour affects stats as @Iocun favours, or (2) sacrificing this connection in favour of pure flavour as @Trey advocates needs to be considered.

I think that (1) is quite possibly ideal, but will necessitate quite a bit of work. Further, there is no assurance that it will have the desired effect. As has been noted by others, knights will still min/max in favour of high speed and low damage. The final outcome is that there will be a new choice weapon -- whichever one has the highest speed, whether it's the rapier, or the one that is inevitably optimized as such with the new changes. EDIT: So long as, without a complete system overhaul, there are not new strategies that are presented by the choice of one weapon over another, and so long as the new strategies presented are equally viable with existing ones. This has potentially far-reaching and unforeseeable consequences to combat, but is by no means unworkable.

Solution (2) yields two effects: minimal restructuring work on the part of the coders, combined with the end effect of no favouritism of one weapon over the other.

For these reasons, of the solutions presented, I am in favour of @Trey's suggestion.

Sasiya

@Nizaris said:
Sasiya: To the bolded: this would remove all incentive for forging. Forgers need to be able to create weapons of variable quality; this is what makes the skill potentially worth it.

I agree that putting a flat balance recovery for the skill is a terrible idea. I think it is an equally terrible idea to argue that rapiers should always be the fastest weapon in the game, because then there is no incentive to use another weapon type in today's Achaea combat. Ideally, all the Knight classes would be revamped, but this is a huge project compared to simply allowing each weapon type to be competitive by mirroring stats. There is nothing awful or bad or terrible in this. In fact, the current variations in stat distribution could easily be kept by using different weapon templates.

Also, I am not convinced that forgers -need- the current incarnation of the skillset to make the skill potentially worth it. I am going to point at Aetolia's forging as an alternate and very viable example, even though it has its own issues. The fact that they got rid of to-hit and added armour penetration as a stat instead was just icing on the cake (even though the numbers were horribly skewed in favour of damage anyway).

Knights being able to use longswords, broadswords, or scimitars and be as competitive as with rapiers is not inherently a bad thing.

In fact, it makes less sense to me that a Knight would go into battle with a rapier than with any of the other swords.