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Org. Ranks & Promotions

OrklanishkalOrklanishkal Member Posts: 120 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
I was not playing actively when this was changed, but what was the purpose of removing the rank effects of house and city favours? I don't have a problem with direct promotion and demotion - in many circumstances this makes sense - but this seems to have simply encouraged gamifying ranks and turning organisational membership into one prolonged task system. For instance the house I am in has tasks through rank 13. 

In "the old days," having a high rank meant that, yes, you had done various requirements, but also that you had done things particular to your character for the betterment of the organisation that had gained approval in the eyes of others. Whether or not one person witnessed all those deeds, if you had a HR11 (or GR16, or something), it was pretty well understood that you were trusted in the organisation, and had made meaningful contributions. It gave real authority, not just a sense that you had checked off various boxes. And it didn't stifle creativity in any way, but rather called for it - if people really wanted to get those high ranks, they'd try to do things unique to their characters for the betterment of the org. This was the kind of thing that allowed dynamic groups, with people applying their talents in unique ways.

Alternatively, having 15 house ranks seems silly.

Anyone else think this has a negative impact?
JiraishinAmunetFinchyBoosteya

Comments

  • FinchyFinchy Member Posts: 105 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I haven't had to go through the new system, so I'll put my hands up and admit I can't really comment on its actual worth, please take everything I say (in general as well as just for now) with a pinch of salt:

    I know the old system meant it took about four RL years of work equivalent to an actual job at times to be CR6, and the real and tremendous power contained within is actually dwarfed by the fact that I did a lot of goddamn stuff and have """"earned""" the right to be a bit cheeky, which I suspect I could be even if I was suddenly CR1 again so I'm not sure that rank has really reflected influence and power. I sincerely doubt I could use the new system reach the same level and suddenly not have to toe the line on using such power responsibly either, whether its a city, house or the like. I also can think of plenty of examples in houses/guilds where progression did not entirely reflect actual ability or time spent, not so much as a judgement against rapidly rising ranks or nepotism more a pragmatic function of appointing people to roles in house structure or simply having a very prominent role. 

    One thing I do remember and sadly i'm sure personally benefited from is that the old system, no matter how much effort is put in to be fair would always reward the prominent or "loud" jobs more than the silent miracle performers. This isn't intentional, and a lot of effort was (and still is) put in to avoiding this, but its just inevitable. At least on paper, a specific reward for a specific task means the path of progression is clear. It does seem incredibly boring though.


    If its just about whether a high number means something I can emphatically say it bloody doesn't.

    I'm just sore Duke is a better rank title than Lord

  • SyndraSyndra Member Posts: 97 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited February 3
    It gave more freedom to the cities and houses. City's like Eleusis and Houses like the Insidium still have the "if you earn x-amount of favours you get promoted" path, which goes along with the old system.

    Mhaldor and Targossas have a tiered militaristic system in place. You can't be "x-rank" in the city unless you hold a certain position. 
  • CyrCyr Member Posts: 124 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I'm not sure I see how promotions versus favors comes into it. I think there's arguments for both sides in terms of the 'you did something noteworthy' versus 'there's a clear path to promotion' but really as long as leaders are atleast somewhat flexible, that shouldn't be too much of an issue (and if they aren't, that's really more of an issue with the player than the system, isn't it?).

    Dunn tells you, "I hate you."
  • AmunetAmunet Spokane, Washington, USAMember Posts: 728 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    People used to tell me that the Occultists had too many novice requirements. Now, imagine that laundry list of shitty tasks being extended all the way through to HR15. It is tiresome to even consider, and, what is worse, it requires very little creativity on the part of those seeking promotion. Gaining rank is as simple - and tedious - as walking up a set of stairs.

    I realize that some people prefer a set "path" to promotion. To an extent, I can see benefits - assurance of preparation, a knowledge of the organizational canon, etc. Still, earning rank after a certain point should be based upon merit. For the highest ranks, it should be difficult. Not as difficult as promotion in the Occultists was, mind you - these new Houses are much more inclusive, and that's fine. Nonetheless, there should be a middle ground. The "stepladder approach" to promotion ought to end by maybe HR7 at the highest. By then, someone is halfway to the top, and should be more than capable of developing their own focus, or lack thereof.
    My avatar is an image created by this very talented gentleman, of whose work I am extremely jealous. It was not originally a picture of Amunet, but it certainly looks a great deal like how I envision her!
    FinchyBoosteya
  • AstarodAstarod Member Posts: 180 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited February 3
    As someone who has spent the majority of my time on the 'tasks-based' system, I can see the merit in using house favors to consider people for promotion, and I realize that the idea of the system is valid. Some tasks are very uninspiring if you have already mastered the subject material, and if you are one who is doing the system to simply gain in rank, you'll feel pretty uninspired once you've checked all the boxes. However, I believe task-based systems are necessary for the house and city to have significant participation.

    I will separate this into a series of arguments for a task-based based system:

    1. Subjective Personalities.

    I will admit that there are those who I simply see, and my first instinct is to just walk the other way. I just don't want to deal with them. There are many people I am that person to. For people to truly enjoy the rewards of moving up in rank and skill, it can't be based on a system that is so subjective and inherently poised against people who don't get along with house leaders who may or may not feel entitled to be complete assholes to those who are below them.

    Now, as you read this I'm going to be frank- I've never personally had this happen to me in a house in Achaea. I am not singling anyone out who is a current or past house leader from Achaea. However, this has happened to me before in muds, and I've found that it is a great way to lose interest in a mud very quickly. I've met people who have had this happen to them in Achaea, and it caused them to go dormant for significant periods of time. Simply put, houses are a big deal to great deal of players and they pave the way for cool titles, RP, pats on the back from superiors, and function as a way to gauge progression. With tasks, you can't be turned down because someone doesn't like you, or didn't notice you doing something spectacular. 

    2.  HR doesn't necessarily correlate to authority 

    Now, speaking from my limited experience, I can say that very rarely have I seen someone pull rank from HR. In houses, while there are plenty of people who have 'authority' based on rank, it's somewhat silly to say that anyone truly listens to them if they're only using it to support this type of behavior- "I did a lot of goddamn stuff and have "earned" the right to be a bit cheeky" (@Finchy)Furthermore, from what I've personally experienced, authority tends to originate from skill and talent. At the end of the day, having been HR or CR for X years tends to fall on deaf ears if someone is simply more capable for a ritual or combat exercise. 

    Moving on, we've all seen people go through the task sets like they were possessed (I will admit to having done this once). While frowned upon, HR correlates to CR, and both of them generally directly affect how many credits one can receive out of a creditsale as well as function as different prerequisites for enjoying the many facets of a given city. While there are many people who don't give back to orgs, there are a lot of people who do, who wouldn't have, if they were not able to climb based on talent alone- without the hindrance of subjective personality disputes. 

    3. Tasks create proficiency in necessary areas and are more open ended than one would think

    I just personally think that respect and authority come from positions which require people to see you doing things particular to your character for the betterment of the organization. At the end of the day, the tasks require you demonstrate the skills and talents required to be considered competent at that rank. For instance, to become HR5 in the Savants, I had to demonstrate that I was able to comprehend the necessary information and use it as a foundation to do do something 'difficult' and amazingly cool for myself and those present. I think the issue is many feel the need to be promised a 'concrete' recognition and reward set to do the amazingly cool stuff to begin with. 

    The best way I can summarize this disjointed mess of thoughts is that while a favors system offers more freedom, task-based HR is a more unbiased platform in which you can hone your skills to accomplish feats that you simply just want to do. Perhaps for yourself, for your house, for your patron, or even for the sake of doing it. Most of those who get favored anyway don't expect to get favored, they are simply doing what they think needs to be done, and people respect them all that much more for it. 

    Thank to anyone who read all of this. You deserve a cookie, a nap, and a hot chocolate. I respect anyone who disagrees, but I've had this argument so many times I felt like I needed to just slap my thoughts down and copy/paste in the future. 
     The Divine voice of Twilight echoes in your head, "See that it is. I espy a tithe of potential in your mortal soul, Astarod Blackstone. Let us hope that it flourishes and does not falter as so many do."
    TianondriaFinchyTruaxBoosteya
  • FinchyFinchy Member Posts: 105 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Astarod said:

    I just personally think that respect and authority come from positions which require people to see you doing things particular to your character for the betterment of the organization. At the end of the day, the tasks require you demonstrate the skills and talents required to be considered competent at that rank.

    Good post in general and its clear you've put some thought into what's apparently a regular debate. Just wanted to touch on this part in particular. The amount of times I can think of someone having more authority in a situation, event or issue than their apparent rank signified vastly, vastly outnumbers the times where rank was used to decide who gets to talk to the wibbly giant bombanell that's threatening to get its event juice on the poor suffering pipperwickets. 

    To be practical, I'm assuming the tasks system is at least partly automated, which has to be a boon over the amount of times I've had to wait extended periods to try and find the Secretary of This Particular Way of Dancing in the House of Funny Dances so I can be approved to have an interview with the chief Funktologist who unfortunately only plays on February 29th. Hopefully its a bit of both though. 

  • UrokUrok Member Posts: 11
    Finchy said:
    Astarod said:

    I just personally think that respect and authority come from positions which require people to see you doing things particular to your character for the betterment of the organization. At the end of the day, the tasks require you demonstrate the skills and talents required to be considered competent at that rank.

    Good post in general and its clear you've put some thought into what's apparently a regular debate. Just wanted to touch on this part in particular. The amount of times I can think of someone having more authority in a situation, event or issue than their apparent rank signified vastly, vastly outnumbers the times where rank was used to decide who gets to talk to the wibbly giant bombanell that's threatening to get its event juice on the poor suffering pipperwickets. 

    To be practical, I'm assuming the tasks system is at least partly automated, which has to be a boon over the amount of times I've had to wait extended periods to try and find the Secretary of This Particular Way of Dancing in the House of Funny Dances so I can be approved to have an interview with the chief Funktologist who unfortunately only plays on February 29th. Hopefully its a bit of both though. 
    Anyone got a Finchy to english translator or dictionary? I got lost at bombanell and pipperwickets.
  • AstarodAstarod Member Posts: 180 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited February 3
    Urok said:
    Finchy said:
    Astarod said:

    I just personally think that respect and authority come from positions which require people to see you doing things particular to your character for the betterment of the organization. At the end of the day, the tasks require you demonstrate the skills and talents required to be considered competent at that rank.

    Good post in general and its clear you've put some thought into what's apparently a regular debate. Just wanted to touch on this part in particular. The amount of times I can think of someone having more authority in a situation, event or issue than their apparent rank signified vastly, vastly outnumbers the times where rank was used to decide who gets to talk to the wibbly giant bombanell that's threatening to get its event juice on the poor suffering pipperwickets. 

    To be practical, I'm assuming the tasks system is at least partly automated, which has to be a boon over the amount of times I've had to wait extended periods to try and find the Secretary of This Particular Way of Dancing in the House of Funny Dances so I can be approved to have an interview with the chief Funktologist who unfortunately only plays on February 29th. Hopefully its a bit of both though. 
    Anyone got a Finchy to english translator or dictionary? I got lost at bombanell and pipperwickets.


    @Urok Translation:

    I've witnessed far more occurrences where someone seemingly had more authority than their rank when considering event participation than when someone pulled the 'rank' card to get to participate as the playerset 'leader'. 

    It's pretty useful that the tasks are 'complete on your own' so you don't have to wait for people who are generally unavailable or occurrences that are rare to advance. I still hope that there are some special situations where you have some of the flavors of reasonable rare advance requirements, though. 

    @Finchy can correct me if I'm wrong

     The Divine voice of Twilight echoes in your head, "See that it is. I espy a tithe of potential in your mortal soul, Astarod Blackstone. Let us hope that it flourishes and does not falter as so many do."
    Finchy
  • FinchyFinchy Member Posts: 105 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Can I hire you?

    Astarod
  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 1,447 @ - Epic Achaean
    As a bombanell, pipperwicket, or just a translator?

    AstarodBoosteyaShirszaeFinchy
  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,191 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    As Syndra said, you can replicate the old system with the new one by simply saying X number of favors = a promotion, so I don't think there's any problem with the new system at all. It only adds more flexibility.

    People's problem seems to be with how their Houses implement the new system, which is just something to petition your House leader about. Even if favours gave rank still, Houses could ban favours except for completing certain tasks and accomplish the same result being complained of. It's just a matter of what specific Houses choose to do and people not agreeing with what X House is doing.
    RiellAstarod
  • AstarodAstarod Member Posts: 180 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Finchy said:
    Can I hire you?
    Unfortunately, @Caelan has my services rather exclusively :)
     The Divine voice of Twilight echoes in your head, "See that it is. I espy a tithe of potential in your mortal soul, Astarod Blackstone. Let us hope that it flourishes and does not falter as so many do."
  • TruaxTruax Member Posts: 140 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited February 3
    Hi, @Orklanishkal!

    First and foremost - welcome back to Achaea! You and @Amunet's names are ones that I first became familiar with from older city news posts and tomes. Stories are often told about the 'old days' and you're always included when people who have been missed are mentioned.

    Speaking from personal history, I was one of the first 'new to Ashtan' players to really come up through the post-Renaissance structure of the Houses and city advancement system. I loved the diversity of of options in regard to what I could do and how I could advance. Right now, for example, there are something like 45 different opportunities to work on projects in various Spokes in the Savants -- It's been three RL years and I'm still never bored!

    Each time I was promoted in the House (Vanguard or Savants) it has felt like a noteworthy achievement to me, but mostly because of how it was handled in each organization. I can remember @Daslin doing a little ceremony for me in the Vanguard,  Ellaer and Katoreos really had a way of building personal relationships with their Spoke members so that it felt like you had truly made them proud and won their respect. It kept me coming back to log-in and try to do more fun things for the first time.

    When I took over Head of Newcomers and my first Spoke in the Savants of the Wheel, it was with the goal of ensuring that same experience for others. Merit-based House advancement seemed very subjective to me too, especially since in the long run you never really know how one little thing someone has done can become something much more valuable later on (and vice versa).

    Roleplay-wise it also made sense to encourage people to work toward pulling themselves up as the early chaos beings once did to rise up from the thrall pools. Glaaki was even seen labouring on his way up the mount he is now the Master of too. The idea that any plebian is a praetor in the making -- and has the potential to be so much more through Ascension is really central to Ashtan's ethos now, so as a whole it works!

    I'm often told how different things were before, so I can understand how it might be a shock to players returning from a lengthy dormancy. But I also think there needs to be an honest effort made in the new system before one can say with authority that one was necessarily better than the other. And even then, that's a wholly subjective viewpoint.

    A lot has happened in the last 100 IC years, so there's a lot to take in and it will probably require more than a week or two in the realm to get to a place where the way things are starts to make more sense. I look forward to getting to know you both IC a lot better and enjoying the fun times the city and House has ahead of them!
    AstarodKyrra
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