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Underworld Feedback

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  • ValariaValaria Member Posts: 400 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    i think of overusing thing in area design are hidden afflictions and the overuse of blackout. those things i don't like in a mob design in general.

    2015/01/12 Tecton, the Terraformer has bestowed His divine favour upon you. It will last for approximately 1 Achaean month.
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,932 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ictinus said:
    Edit to add: Resto breaks shouldn't be happening directly, unless the mobs prep you first. This can be avoided in all the standard ways.
    I don't have a ton of experience with the new UW (it really doesn't seem worth the hassle, and I doubt even with the changes you've made it will seem worth the hassle), but the Death Knights which use two-handed mechanics don't have their damage tuned in the same way that players do (two-handed damage is actually rather low because you're applying health and therefore not sipping), and can't be affected by a lot of the things that actually help you fight players (paralysis, clumsiness, weariness, lethargy, arm breaks, rebounding, etc. etc.). I have almost 13k health as Bard, and I have almost every defensive (and offensive) artefact I can get that would help, yet applying health to cure fractures didn't ever feel like a viable option when in the room with them. That essentially means that the restoration breaks (which I'm assuming are based on fractures, though maybe I'm wrong) can be avoided in one way: hit and run.

    It might be not quite so bad if GMCP for stackable afflictions worked, so you could actually tell when you're getting prepped by denizens (and players, though I currently have triggers for that). There were some changes a while back, but they weren't sufficient, didn't feel intuitive, and parts of it didn't seem to be working properly. I'll file another bug on this when I get home (assuming I don't already have one open), but it's not the greatest system for putting in loads of text to explain how I think things should actually work (and I also don't know what constraints are in place when actually doing the dev work). I'm happy to sit down and discuss it if/when one of our lovely coders wants to take another look at that, though.


  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,065 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    My concerns have already been stated for the most part.

    To add to the discussion on fractures, the relapsing lethargy/sensitivity is really annoying. I’m unsure if sensitivity affects mob damage the same as players, but it seems like it. Adding a regular sensitivity to what is already a fairly difficult fight seems a bit much. I can take 1 DK easy enough, but 2+ I have to hit and run. Two hits and I’m in red health nearing break point. Can be entirely my play style, but I hate that I have to run from non honors mobs to bash them. As others have mentioned, I spent a good amount of money/credits to become strong enough (and a lot of time learning how to survive) to not have to do that kind of bashing.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • TaryiusTaryius Member Posts: 758 @ - Epic Achaean
    DK's shouldn't feel that bad as long as they don't get their prone burst attack in, but with 2 on a stack thats much harder to avoid.

    The UW mobs really just synergize so well in groups, makes it harder but I kinda like that.
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,399 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Ictinus The chill on the blackout is a god send. Thank you.
    TaryiusKrizalPenwize
  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 1,897 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tahquil said:
    @Ictinus The chill on the blackout is a god send. Thank you.
    Ictinus be like, "Oh you wanted me to make it so they freeze on blackout? Can do!"

    LeviticusCaelan
  • LeviticusLeviticus Member Posts: 339 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    It is weird that the money + artefact issue has been brought up again... but this time for PvE and by the same people who harped on me when I brought it up in PvP.

    I think you should keep it the same difficulty. I hate when WoW and other games make stuff easier, especially after one week since the content has been out. I am tired of seeing people just mow through bashing areas without any thought, myself included. I love the deathsights that UW is providing. Making bashing great again (but can you to make it worth the effort). I do think a lot of what they are saying can be fixed by controlling how many mobs can be in one room at a time. 

    While this new bashing area is a godsend and you guys have been amazing with this whole event my question is why should I bash? There is no reward. The first end-state of bashing is to get dragon... then nothing. Even Penwize and Proficy state yeah not worth it to bash up to 130's and 140's. So I believe while this content is great it doesn't fix the overall problem of no end-state with bashing. 

    Let's hop on those classleads now!


    (Really thank you for your hard work!)
    PlakDhaakValaria
  • IctinusIctinus Administrator Posts: 258 Admin
    I've made some more common sense adjustments today, aiming to keep things challenging without just being pure frustration. In general, pacing should be a little slower and more manageable. At this point I'm not likely to make any more sweeping changes and feedback from those of you who have messaged me directly has been that it's generally easier to cope with now while still remaining formidable if teamed up - I'm happy with this.  That said, if there are any particular outliers, I still want to hear about them.
    "If you build it, they will come."
    LeviticusDhaakUtianima
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,065 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Leviticus said:
    It is weird that the money + artefact issue has been brought up again... but this time for PvE and by the same people who harped on me when I brought it up in PvP.

    I think you should keep it the same difficulty. I hate when WoW and other games make stuff easier, especially after one week since the content has been out. I am tired of seeing people just mow through bashing areas without any thought, myself included. I love the deathsights that UW is providing. Making bashing great again (but can you to make it worth the effort). I do think a lot of what they are saying can be fixed by controlling how many mobs can be in one room at a time. 

    While this new bashing area is a godsend and you guys have been amazing with this whole event my question is why should I bash? There is no reward. The first end-state of bashing is to get dragon... then nothing. Even Penwize and Proficy state yeah not worth it to bash up to 130's and 140's. So I believe while this content is great it doesn't fix the overall problem of no end-state with bashing. 

    Let's hop on those classleads now!


    (Really thank you for your hard work!)
    There is a difference in advantage over another person, and an advantage over an NPC that’s a part of the game world.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • NazihkNazihk Member Posts: 993 @ - Epic Achaean
    Also, WoW and the like generally have other ways to approach content like that.

    You can gear up a bit more, through the multiple methods of gearing up that they have provided. You can often change specs to something more suited for that situation. None of that stuff is a real option in Achaea due to the costs of artifacts and class changes.

    As well, you can legitimately improve your skills at the game. You can pull more carefully, you can use more CC, you can learn what spells do the most damage and get better about interrupting them. You can get better at your damage rotation and learn when to use your offensive and defensive cooldowns.

    None of that stuff really applies in Achaea either. There's no l2p solution for "these things wreck me" other than "well then don't go there".
    TorinnShirszae
  • ProficyProficy Member Posts: 399 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Bashing takes some skill as well. It's not all run in "kill target"
    You have to know when to pull back, shield, what to kill first in groups, and take what you can handle.

    Just because you spent so much on your player doesn't automatically make you able to take areas better than others.

    There still are those denizen resistances that apply to denziens no one has talked about that may help as well as people forgetting about the ability to critical hit factor. Those two play a big factor in bashing.

    I do agree with @Leviticus ;on the concern to "why bash" once you hit dragon though. Besides the talisman dropping locations not to much worth investing your time at. Granted you gain a small small bit of hp still from every level, almost every attack is % based now so you gaining more hp just means your attackers do more damage to you.
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Having more hp is always advantageous, though. One, breakpoints don't scale. Two, almost no attacks (barring like kai choke) are entirely % based. They're usually like 500 damage + 10% of your hp or whatever, and the higher your hp, the less of a % the static portion is, which means you're taking less total % of your hp while sipping for more and regenning for more.

    That said, I still wouldn't try to bash past 100 because the gains are tiny unless you put in absurd hours.
  • PenwizePenwize Member Posts: 1,543 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I haven't mathed it out in a while, but the sip formula, moss formula, regen formula and boar all have static components to them as well, so as you gain max health you also recover less health (percentage-wise) over time.  In a handful of cases (tanking kai choke, for example), having higher max health can actually be a detriment to a small degree.
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,932 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Pretty sure moss/potash, regen and boar are all strictly percentage based.
    Keorin
  • ProficyProficy Member Posts: 399 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    So are ALOT more abilities than just kai choke... DSB, BBT, assault, arc.... tons seem to do the exact same % base damage on any and everyone defendant only on class restrictions.

    Just odd that I do 1500 damage to one person and then like 700 damage to another using the exact same ability.
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,318 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Ictinus

    The random mob movement that just happens to group up mobs is still an issue and really needs to be fixed. Even carefully bashing and going into rooms with only one mob, you can get over run extremely quickly. And the way the mobs are designed, and the area is designed, once you're in a position of 'oh a mob just walked into my room, I might not be able to tank it', you're already dead because you can't run away.

  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,520 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I just accept that if I bother bashing UW trash, I will probably die unavoidably at some point. I'm not really sure how I'd stand UW if I couldn't fly though. Everyone I know just flies to get past all the trash and to the better areas. It might be interesting if there was some kind of quest item/talisman you could earn in UW that let you walk by all the mobs unnoticed if you don't attack them.
    LennXias
  • PlakPlak Member Posts: 109 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    First time down there for me today, but there’s things that chase and follow flying too, yikes. Died four times I think, one time twice within two seconds as three or so mobs entered while we were doing fine. An exciting introductory tour nonetheless!
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,318 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Farrah said:
    I just accept that if I bother bashing UW trash, I will probably die unavoidably at some point. I'm not really sure how I'd stand UW if I couldn't fly though. Everyone I know just flies to get past all the trash and to the better areas. It might be interesting if there was some kind of quest item/talisman you could earn in UW that let you walk by all the mobs unnoticed if you don't attack them.
    Or just...fix the wandering room RNG. Or remove it if it can't be fixed!

    Anze
  • MindshellMindshell Member Posts: 313 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Surely the clumping is what provides a variable experience and some actual excitement over mid tier hunting zones. Given the synergy design they end up inconsequential when not clumped.
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,318 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    One enemy: ez cause of my arties
    Two: have to be in dragonform
    Three: oh shit, there's a 90% chance I'm going to die unless I get some nice crits
    Four: well, I'm fucked
    Five: why is it possible for this many to be in a room
    Six: wtf?
    Seven: this is the most I've seen

    The big problem is there is no real counter play. They chase, fly, and the chance of the path to the root being clear so you can run without dragging even more with you is about 0. Once you have one more walk into your room than you can handle, you're dead. I don't feel that is a very satisfying or rewarding experience.

  • RangorRangor Member Posts: 3,272 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sounds like the reckoning and brazier bashing is required :P
    image
  • AjocAjoc Member Posts: 80 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    I've seen rooms with 10+ before.
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,318 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think I'm officially giving up on the UW. They are tuned so hard that even 1 mob can kill 90% of the game, and if you get 2 bad mobs in a room it is impossible to bash in a reasonable manner.

    Not fun at all, sorry guys.

  • PenwizePenwize Member Posts: 1,543 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2018
    Now time for some positive feedback! @Ictinus, or whoever it was that designed the Kemnast fight, that was great.  It was challenging, but not immediately discouraging and used familiar mechanics.  Figuring it out was a bit easier than Yudhi, and just tricky enough to be fun.  Most importantly, it never felt unfair.  I could look back at the fight and see what I did wrong to die.  More of that would totally be welcome!


    The mob clumping issue sure is a problem still though.  That really could use a fix of some kind, it'd go a long way to making UW more approachable.
    TaryiusAustere
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,318 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    This was like, 1 second apart. Squinting every direction before I move, dragging mobs 1-2 rooms away from any other mobs before killing them. Being super careful!

    This room went from 1 mob to 5 in between squinting and moving :(

    Narrowing your eyes, you squint off toward the east.
    Foothills above dead forest.
    A stubborn mule wanders about here, nosing at the ground. Murmuring
    pleas laden with anguish and rage, an ethereal swordsman frantically drifts about the field.
    You can see no further.
    9870h, 7274m, 29553e, 28975w 
    Foothills above dead forest.
    A stubborn mule wanders about here, nosing at the ground. There are 2 pale shadows here. Grotesque
    squelching and rippling accompanies the dragging steps of a monstrous experiment as it lumbers about 
    the area. Murmuring pleas laden with anguish and rage, an ethereal swordsman frantically drifts 
    about the field. A figure wrapped in multiple swathes of cloth lurks from the shadows.
    You see exits leading northeast, southeast, west, and northwest.

  • SobriquetSobriquet Member Posts: 2,441 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    I think I'm officially giving up on the UW. They are tuned so hard that even 1 mob can kill 90% of the game, and if you get 2 bad mobs in a room it is impossible to bash in a reasonable manner.

    Not fun at all, sorry guys.
    This needs some notice by the admin. This isn't some mid tier half hearted basher here. Cooper has high level defensive artefacts across the board, death cape talisman, damage from shield thingy talisman and, I assume, Maya figurine. Level 3 weapons and wouldn't be surprised if there were some armour paragons in there too.

    And he's one of the top PK'ers in the game.

    If it's too much for him then something really needs to be looked at.
    image
    Fengrich
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,318 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The top PKer part is very far from true, I haven't been in that game for 5+ years. Thanks for the thought, though.

  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 2,421 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    The top PKer part is very far from true, I haven't been in that game for 5+ years. Thanks for the thought, though.
    Kitty is still in the top .1% of pkers though.


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 1,897 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Minifie said:
    Cooper said:
    The top PKer part is very far from true, I haven't been in that game for 5+ years. Thanks for the thought, though.
    Kitty is still in the top .1% of pkers though.
    Lenn is pretty good.

    Lenn
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