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Underworld Feedback

PenwizePenwize
in North of Thera
I saw @Ictinus mention on Discord a while back that feedback would be better put somewhere the developers are sure to see it, rather than just randomly strewn about on Discord.  So, with that in mind, I'd like to give my thoughts on where it stands, and invite everyone else to chip in with their own (constructive) opinions.  It's been a few days now, and I worry it's going to get neglected pretty quickly for a few reasons.

First and foremost, mob density is a problem to me.  I have to say I really dig how strong the mobs are, especially one or two of them at a time.  Dangerous, but not outrageously so.  It's great.  The problem lies with the groups of 5+ (sometimes up to 10!) that cluster in a handful of rooms.  This does two major things: first, it insta-kills people (not fun), and it means there's less mobs to hunt in practicality.  What mobs do break off of these clusters, have a tendency to wander quickly and can suddenly overwhelm you.  Given how hard they chase, and how dangerous moving from one room to another is in an area with wandering strong mobs, this usually means you just die without any real recourse.  Forcing the mobs to spread out better would go a long way toward fixing this.

Second, blackout.  Overuse of blackout makes fighting mobs more like staring at a screen of blank lines, hoping you don't die before the mob does and guessing what you should be doing.  Maybe some kind of mitigating factor like a blackout defense or giving mobs a condition to their blackout attacks would make this more interesting, but as it stands it's just too much blackout to really have fun with.

The two of these things kind of get exacerbated when you add the constant threat of pvp into the mix.  It's really hard to jump someone, or respond to getting jumped, when moving one or two rooms away can mean you just die (from full) to 3+ wandering mobs instead of the person you're fighting, even if they've cleared a bit before hand.  Some risk in this regard is great, but it's a bit overtuned right now I think.  Any movement in the wrong direction can mean very quick death, which kind of gets in the way of good fights.

I don't really feel like these would be problems if this was just another bashing spot, but this is the Underworld! I don't want to see all the work done on that new dynamic system lost to people avoiding the place, and I don't want to lose the opportunity for a great new conflict zone.
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Comments

  • AegothAegoth
    edited July 2018
    Overall, I think the mobs are way overtuned with their affliction output, as well. Giving instant hypothermia, or heavy doses of lock affs, alongside their heavy damage can be extremely overwhelming to even maxed artifacted people. The mob density problem further exacerbates this as well, because of the highly synergistic level of their affs. I also agree that blackout is extremely overused, and could perhaps be scaled back quite a lot as to the frequency of its use by these mobs. This goes for stun as well.

    New UW is very exciting, and I can't wait to explore all the new content when I find some free time. I just feel like the trash mobs, however, largely prevent that from happening right now unless you are Atalkez-level stubborn
  • TahquilTahquil
    +1 like for the use of the word 'gobbet'.
  • AntoniusAntonius
    Is there literally anybody who finds blackout, restoration-cured afflictions and two-handed knight mechanics fun on denizens? It feels like there's a disconnect between the design philosophy for new denizens/areas and what players find enjoyable.

    Challenging denizens can be enjoyable, but only when there's things you can meaningfully do defensively (so no restoration breaks, no two-handed mechanics) and when you can actually see what the fuck is going on (so no blackout).

    Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files

  • RangorRangor
    Thought we already knew this based on how little the undererealm denizens are bashed.
    image
  • DunnDunn
    I’m down there for the chaotic PVP mostly, but have gotten womped in the middle areas 3 of 4 visits. The blackout is definitely the most brutal shit about it, imo. 

    That shadow giving frozen/hypothermia was fking amazing tho. 


  • FarrahFarrah
    Blackout is one of those things where, in pk, you literally run away when it happens most of the time and wait for it to fade, so I agree that it happening all the time is a terrible mechanic. If it only happened rarely, it'd be fine. 

    I wouldn't mind the restoration breaks if denizens didn't clump together so much. That's one of the major problems when you run into the huge groups, though, since you can never get away. 

    I don't really mind the 2h mechanics, personally.

    Unphasing mobs are annoying too. :(
  • DunnDunn
    Panic running from blackout is my #1 cause of death down there so far... PK instinct in a high density area is not good. 


  • NazihkNazihk
    Aegoth said:
    Giving instant hypothermia, or heavy doses of lock affs, alongside their heavy damage can be extremely overwhelming to even maxed artifacted people. 
    IMO, that is the point of doing it. One of the constant problems IRE has had across all of its games is balancing PvE content. Things tend to be either trivial or complete bullshit because there just aren't enough mechanics to allow for a fight that's difficult without being bullshit.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]
    edited July 2018
    Nazihk said:
    Aegoth said:
    Giving instant hypothermia, or heavy doses of lock affs, alongside their heavy damage can be extremely overwhelming to even maxed artifacted people. 
    IMO, that is the point of doing it. One of the constant problems IRE has had across all of its games is balancing PvE content. Things tend to be either trivial or complete bullshit because there just aren't enough mechanics to allow for a fight that's difficult without being bullshit.
    Or in the case of a lot of Imperian bosses... Difficult the first 2-3 times, then people figure out the lines and can just automate their mechanics. >.>
  • NazihkNazihk
    There's ssome there that were still challenging. That one Lich in the Necropolis with the chains, the shadow-scythe guy, etc.

    But yes, that's another issue. Automation is so easy to do in a mud client that a lot of things are only challenging until you get the trigger line for them, at which point the computer's literally inhuman reaction speed serves to trivialize that mechanic.
  • PenwizePenwize
    I'm not so sure about that honestly.  Curing puzzles like human Yudhi are a lot more than just getting the trigger lines, they're figuring out priorities and how to swap them, and when to defend/when to attack.  Yes, when you eventually figure it out you can automate it, but like any puzzle it's more about finding the solution more than it is executing. 

    That's true in other games too.  As an extreme example, in WoW raiding you stumble a few times on a boss learning its mechanics, then once you've learned it, it becomes just rote execution at that point.  That's why WoW moved to a constant flow of new content as their model, rather than farming the same raids for months on end.

    Still, I think Achaea's PvE boss style is an entirely different discussion that could use its own thread really.
  • KietKiet
    edited July 2018
    A big part of wow raiding is the actual execution that you have to perfect too, though. Most guilds know the mechanics within a few wipes, that doesn't mean they can actually handle them. People wipe on hard fights even after they're supposedly on 'farm', too, which doesn't compare to just automating a boss fight in Achaea once you figure it out and never struggling again.
  • MinifieMinifie
    Is there an intermediate between faceroll and bullshit? Asshole mobs in an open PK area is also very meh. Fissure is still my favourite place to hunt alert, and the gateway to underrealm is ok but getting triple loki+resto breaks is just ... bleh.
  • SobriquetSobriquet
    It looks like in going from "F1 until dead" and asking for a bashing endgame for Dragons, we've reached a point where mobs are now too strong even for groups. Couple that with open PK and it's a place I will very very rarely visit, and I've not been down there yet.

    Blackout is a stupid aff for mobs to give


    (Party): Mezghar says, "Stop."
  • TorinnTorinn
    Yeah I'm in the "not interested" category for hunting there as well.  It's okay for them to be challenging, but any more challenging than the elementals on top of yggdrasil and it's in the "meh not worth it" category
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
  • AccipiterAccipiter
    Blackout is a standard for most affliction mobs nowadays though, no matter how terrible it makes bashing. It also highlights people who use GMCP to target vs those who don't cause the GMCP gives death information in an item.remove event where the actual line is eaten by the blackout, I think the GMCP will also tell you when a mob enters the room that blackout hides.

    I haven't been down to the UW yet, but it seems like most mobs in other areas are tuned fine singly or in pairs but the movement mechanics means anything that wanders are going to have more than the balanced amount in a room. Things like fire elementals entering and killing you in a tenth of a second because 2 of them set you on fire then instakilled you at the same time should be looked at.
  • IsmayIsmay
    Blackout is enough for me to avoid bashing the mobs all together. Even the dang squids in Phereklos giving blackout annoys me, and it's a kiddie area. I've only been to the UW once since it opened back up - never again.
    Give us -real- shop logs! Not another misinterpretation of features we ask for, turned into something that either doesn't help at all, or doesn't remotely resemble what we wanted to begin with.

    Thanks!

    Current position of some of the playerbase, instead of expressing a desire to fix problems:

    Vhaynna: "Honest question - if you don't like Achaea or the current admin, why do you even bother playing?"


  • TaryiusTaryius
    I've been thoroughly enjoying the UW, I never got to enjoy it before. Even if its got me a little frustrated as I figure it all out :)! 

    Having everything crittable is a huge improvement over Yggdrasil, but I can vouch that the blackout is the most frustrating part of the mobs there. The mob clumping is also an issue, especially near the spawn where its not uncommon to see -way- too many mobs in one room. 

    There are 5 undead assassins here. There are 5 pale shadows here. There are 6 grotesque experiments here. There are 7 ethereal swordsmen here.


    No one likes that, if it isn't an instakill just walking in, it will be a death sentence as the mobs chase you down.

    I might be an outlier here, but I've enjoyed the most of the denizen combat (honors mobs included! Huge improvement over the feeling of impossibility from the Titans), and trying to avoid certain afflictions for certain mobs to avoid bursts or hinder. It definitely isn't worth doing for the gold and xp over just grinding out an area like the Catacombs or Annwyn, but I've found it fun.


  • TorinnTorinn
    edited July 2018
    Agreed with Cooper fully.  If denizens are going to have these tools, let us use all our abilities against them too.  Not just the bashing ones.
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
  • KrizalKrizal
    I'm with @Taryius here, I've enjoyed bashing in the UW (esp since the assassin nerf) and the small group fights we've had have been fun. There are a ton of bashing areas that are just "press f1 and alt-tab to something else because bashing is boring", I like having one where we need to actually pay attention. Especially since it's open PK, so you're less likely to get randomly PK'd while zoned out. The gold is pretty good down there as well.

    Everything giving blackout definitely makes it a lot harder to bash there, with the high aff rate and variable damage so you never know how screwed you are until you get away. Add to that almost everything chasing really fast, flying, and proning frequently, and it's hard to get away once you are frozen with hypothermia and a broken leg or two (which can happen in 1-2 rounds with 2 or more mobs), and dementia to make the map useless. But if you do get away, you can lead the mobs to one of the smaller areas where they won't follow, and hit-and-run them.

    Agree with the mob clumping issues, there's a huge totally empty area in the middle, and instant death rooms in the northern parts because the mobs like to clump together into groups of 5-10+. Squinting helps avoid them, but it still means there are fewer mobs to actually bash.
  • MinifieMinifie
    Everytime areas are made that makes hunting for the artied 1% awful it’s made awful for everyone. Prin, fissure, annwyn, old underworld, lupine are great fun for me because I also time myself to try and make quicker clears and play with my tools available. Bashing areas that involve clever routing, mob prioritising, healing and kiting management, shielding with cooldown usage are great ways to add challenge. “You are quad level 2 broke for walking into this room with blackout” isn’t challenging because my only response is to carry a crit in, brazier bash or just ignore the place.

    balance stuff for the mid range players, dragons and those with arties. Group hunting areas would be ok but if you walk into some rooms someone gets gibbed and it is good game. If you made the aggressive mob (the one hit) pile on affs while the others do hindering stuff, or allow for kiting or mobs that need to be interrupted with battlerage affs at key times would be neat. 

    Tl:dr current game mechanics makes “challenging” pve content hard since there’ll either be cheese strats or completely ignored.
  • SobriquetSobriquet
    Seems a shame to put all that effort into an area that only 5% of Achaea now want to actually go and visit

    (Party): Mezghar says, "Stop."
  • MinifieMinifie
    Sobriquet said:
    Seems a shame to put all that effort into an area that only 5% of Achaea now want to actually go and visit
    Double down on whales! 
  • IsmayIsmay
    @Minifie! Where has my Minifie been hiding?? I'm glad you weren't hit by a bus...
    Give us -real- shop logs! Not another misinterpretation of features we ask for, turned into something that either doesn't help at all, or doesn't remotely resemble what we wanted to begin with.

    Thanks!

    Current position of some of the playerbase, instead of expressing a desire to fix problems:

    Vhaynna: "Honest question - if you don't like Achaea or the current admin, why do you even bother playing?"


  • MinifieMinifie


    Am with nature
  • IctinusIctinus
    I've been away for a couple of days, now I'm back.

    I was hopeful that making everything crittable would solve the perception of things being not worth doing. As it seems like even that isn't enough to offset some of the difficulty, I will take another look at the tuning / aggressiveness at some point today.


    "If you build it, they will come."
  • KietKiet
    I think the big issues are just blackout/mobs grouping up into impossible groups of 15. That said, I don't bash, so my interest in the UW is mostly limited to whether I can find people to fight. The mobs right now are too brutal for me to avoid them, making pve kind of required if you want to pvp, too.

    I really like all the mechanics that were added, though, and our questers have been having fun figuring stuff out. I'd say that + the new honours mobs are the highlight of new UW and seem very well done!
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