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Lesser Gem of Transmutation

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  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,336 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Except if you use the mechanics already there, you're not technically changing race (because you can reincarnate into the same race which removes the specialisation, no?). What's so hard to accept about that? Again, what you seem to want is something that will let you frequently, and cheaply, respec at will. Let's just take into consideration that artefacts that let you change race/retrait twice a day cost 2,000 credits. Buy one of the gems, or buy ten daggers and use them as you will.



  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,341 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    This would devalue the gem that already exists,  but it would encourage people to stay one race.  I could pick one race and theoretically  be any class, as long as I could re-spec. I bought the gem just for multi class,  so if this became an option, I would seek a refund. I doubt IRE wants to refund everyone who bought a gem just for that purpose so I don't see it happening. 
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    What's with all this opposition toward wanting more granular artefact options exactly?

    I really can't think of a reason other than maybe that some people already bought the gem but would totally have gone for this thing instead, and so now they don't want it there because they don't want their initial investment to be wasted.

    @Xith never wants to change race (which can be for gameplay or for roleplay reasons), and presumably doesn't care about the self-rez ability or the ability to get past unsecured doors.

    Given that the effort to implement such a thing is ultimately unknown to players at this point, it's impossible to argue that it's not worth the implementation time, and it's difficult to say how well it'll sell just through discussion.

    Furthermore, no one has even suggested a price for the thing, so the argument that the majority of its functionality already exists is also quite silly.

    The argument that the current options are affordable is also silly, since the main reason IRE would want to do this is to widen the target audience of the artefact in question.

    The argument that it'll take away development time for things you care more about is also silly, because of the many reasons above, but also because that's a management concern that's mostly up to people like @Tecton and @Sarapis, and it's completely possible that they'll decide to put it in tomorrow and yet nothing you love will have been delayed for it. Programming work is often closer to an oozing slime or putty than something that's actually fluid.

    Finally, with multi-class coming up, it's inevitable that players will want to pair up classes with entirely different stat requirements. Given that, at its core, multi-class is mostly a way of providing a cheaper way of playing multiple classes (which, given that complex class diversity is one of Achaea's selling points, is kind of a huge plus in my opinion), providing more options to change spec would probably only make multi-class more... I guess successful maybe.
    Xith
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    For everyone who claims to have bought it for that purpose. I don't know how many gem owners there really are but if they used it at all before implementation, it would render the claim fraudulent.
    However, offering a free downgrade wouldn't really hurt Achaea fiscally at all, since the other 500 credits are already purchased and will just be put into different artefacts.


    ------
    Here's why my artefact is different, Kresslack.
    Reincarnation allows you to a) change race, and b) change racial specialisation. The ability to do this monthly is appraised at 1000cr.
    The ability to do change racial specialisation cannot be appraised at 1000cr unless changing one's race is presumed to be worth 0cr.

    Changing to Horkval grants LEAP. Let's assume that's the most potent racial trait, weighing in at the cost of chitin greaves (700cr). So that's potentially the mechanical value of changing a race.
    Changing your spec leaves you with the same number of stat points, but a single stat can increase by as much as +2, with a less important stat (presumably) falling by -2, adjusted to -1 for lack of importance. That'd give you a stat artie's value (500cr).
    This is a casual example, doesn't include the RP value of a person's race or horkval armour, for example, but since not all races are that mechanically useful, we'll leave it at that and assume the SPECS = 5/12 of your Gem's worth (416 credits).

    That value is all I want out of the artefact.
    It also doesn't include the value of the gem's resurrection, a byproduct of changing race. So specialisation probably comes out to a smaller fraction of the 1000cr normal Gem. However, it's still got its own mechanical advantages and that's why I think 500 makes sense.


    If it helps, keep in mind that serious 'multi-classers' are going to be grabbing Grimoire of Adaptation for traits, since nimble and +1 stat are just as important. Yes, I have already done that. Gem's cost was originally split to 1000 because people suddenly needed Grimoires as well. This would offer people the chance to go a 1500 route instead of 2000 if they don't want to change race or rez themselves.

    Will they add this feature as part of multi-class as would seem sensible? Switching from Monk to Shaman and suddenly needing very different stats? Probably.
    But that doesn't take same-class specs into consideration, like STR monk to INT monk. Or INT magi to CON magi. DEX serpent for combat, CON serpent for hunting. INT apostate for hunting, CON for combat (or visa versa).
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    tl;dr - Your only objection seems to be 'You can have the features you want with the more expensive car, even though it's a school bus.'

    I don't need a school bus. That's way too many seats. I just want the CD changer and heated seats, Kressy. Why I can't have the CD changer and the heated seats? :( Why you gotta make me buy a school bus, Kressy?
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Xith said:
    However, offering a free downgrade wouldn't really hurt Achaea fiscally at all, since the other 500 credits are already purchased and will just be put into different artefacts.
    This isn't really true though. It's a great PR move to offer a refund like this (and a poor one to avoid doing so whenever people might feel legitimately screwed over), but the only way a credit refund wouldn't cost IRE is if it's granted to someone who would not otherwise have ever bought credits again anyway.

    For example, let's say @Synbios had a gem all along (it's how he hides his true alien nature after all), but decides he's OK with being a human permanently in some crazy space opera fanfiction world, so he accepts the downgrade. We'll call this universe A.

    In the normal universe, he did not accept the downgrade because he liked being able to switch between his human disguise, his horrifying true form, and sometimes a xorani because why not xorani. We'll call this universe B.

    Both Synbioses are otherwise exactly alike, so both eventually decide they really think it'd be cool to buy like, ten dice, and to randomly throw them at people. You can't judge him, he's a transcendental being, and you're made of gross carbon-water molecules or something.

    Universe A Synbios gets out his space wallet, but then remembers he already has enough credits for that, so he puts it away and acquires ten dice.

    Universe B Synbios ends up paying Achaea some space cash (converted into USD).

    Universe A IRE has like $40 less than universe B IRE.

    Economics are really simple when you just apply basic interdimensional theory to it. :c
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,819 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nim said:

    Both Synbioses are otherwise exactly alike, so both eventually decide they really think it'd be cool to buy like, ten dice, and to randomly throw them at people.

    You are holding:
          dice162889          a pair of ivory dice
          dice285405          a pair of ivory dice
          dice341544          a pair of ivory dice
          dice353378          a pair of ivory dice
          dice361709          a pair of ivory dice
          dice398856          a pair of ivory dice
          dice427972          a pair of ivory dice
          dice459508          a pair of ivory dice
          dice470988          a pair of ivory dice


    Fuckin' Globes, man.

    NimKyrraYae
  • RiashainRiashain Member Posts: 191 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    This thread should have died a while ago.
    Herenicus
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    No, Achaean credits are like Pringles. Nobody just buys 1000 credits one time. 
    But honestly they don't have to refund every time something changes. Like if monk gets nerfed, they're not obligated to refund you your lessons and arties just cause you're unhappy with your purchase. 
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Id just rather see race and spec separated artifact-wise. Not hard to grasp. 
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Xith said:
    Id just rather see race and spec separated artifact-wise. Not hard to grasp. 
    People grasp it. Quite a few don't agree.

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
  • RiashainRiashain Member Posts: 191 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    So many dead horses in this thread.
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Trey said:
    We get it, @ Xith, we just don't agree that it's necessary.  One-time trait resets are 100cr, one-time reincarnation (which can do exactly what you want) are 100cr. What makes you think a racial respecialisation (something an existing artefact is capable of) wouldn't be 100cr, and thus redundant? 

    If an artefact for specialisation swapping like gem of reinc, same argument applies on a larger scale. 
    Because if A + B = 100cr, B is not worth 100cr. I just want to buy B. 
    Don't want the self-rez, etc.

    There is no reason to disagree with this because implementing it won't change anything that affects any player in a negative way.
    If people demand refunds, I think that's on IRE for not making this an option sooner. It ties in with making race more about RP and less about stats and abilities, so it might as well have come out when specs did.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Xith said:
    Trey said:
    We get it, @ Xith, we just don't agree that it's necessary.  One-time trait resets are 100cr, one-time reincarnation (which can do exactly what you want) are 100cr. What makes you think a racial respecialisation (something an existing artefact is capable of) wouldn't be 100cr, and thus redundant? 

    If an artefact for specialisation swapping like gem of reinc, same argument applies on a larger scale. 
    Because if A + B = 100cr, B is not worth 100cr. I just want to buy B. 
    Don't want the self-rez, etc.

    There is no reason to disagree with this because implementing it won't change anything that affects any player in a negative way.
    If people demand refunds, I think that's on IRE for not making this an option sooner. It ties in with making race more about RP and less about stats and abilities, so it might as well have come out when specs did.
    I only want one biscuit, but they only come in packets of 15 biscuits, therefore I won't buy any biscuits because I don't want 14 more, I just want one. Why don't the manufacturers sell biscuits in packets of one?

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
    RiashainTreyCelusia
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Klendathu said:
    I only want one biscuit, but they only come in packets of 15 biscuits, therefore I won't buy any biscuits because I don't want 14 more, I just want one. Why don't the manufacturers sell biscuits in packets of one?
    Go to a place (like a restaurant or something) that serves biscuits, and ask only one. Problem solved.
    XithNexes
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nim said:
    Klendathu said:
    I only want one biscuit, but they only come in packets of 15 biscuits, therefore I won't buy any biscuits because I don't want 14 more, I just want one. Why don't the manufacturers sell biscuits in packets of one?
    Go to a place (like a restaurant or something) that serves biscuits, and ask only one. Problem solved.
    Because I want a packet of 1 and it's ruining my RP. :grin: 

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah but a buttered biscuit is a dagger of reincarnation. I don't want a buttered biscuit. I just want the biscuit. 
    The Gem would be a pack of infinite buttered biscuits. I just want infinite biscuits.

    Learn to analogy.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,307 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I don't think its a ridiculous request. Especially with multiclass coming. You want a portion of the functionality of the existing gem for a portion of the cost. While I don't think race change holds a ton of value with the spec system we now have, you're certainly losing considerable value with the self-rezz, get through locked doors functionality with the gem.

    Don't really see why people are being so hard on this idea.


    image
    NimIskla
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Xith said:
    Yeah but a buttered biscuit is a dagger of reincarnation. I don't want a buttered biscuit. I just want the biscuit. 
    The Gem would be a pack of infinite buttered biscuits. I just want infinite biscuits.

    Learn to analogy.
    Wait, are you using the correct definition of biscuit, or the silly 'murican definition of some kind of bread roll thing? Because butter on biscuits? Ugh. /derail-- woo woo!

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
    AntoniusKyrraXith
  • NexesNexes Member Posts: 86 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Klendathu said:
    Xith said:
    Yeah but a buttered biscuit is a dagger of reincarnation. I don't want a buttered biscuit. I just want the biscuit. 
    The Gem would be a pack of infinite buttered biscuits. I just want infinite biscuits.

    Learn to analogy.
    Wait, are you using the correct definition of biscuit, or the silly 'murican definition of some kind of bread roll thing? Because butter on biscuits? Ugh. /derail-- woo woo!
    Those things other countries call biscuits are clearly cookies.
    KresslackLarenHalos
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