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  • Apostate is hands down the best of those three.

    Apostate one v one is extremely powerful, but slightly time consuming to learn if you want to be good (its not whether you're a good combatant or not in that regard, there are just a ton of aliases/macros you'll have to become accustomed to if you want a truly dynamic offense). There's a general steap learning curve, but once you get it down its incredibly powerful. Extremely potent raid utility (anything with beckon and a ghands esque ability is pretty much top raid tier utility by default). An intelligent apostate with essence and who doesn't panic can tank just about anything on the game too (there are a few noteable exceptions to this rule, but its a good general statement).

    Good assassination (blackwind/beckon/eliminate/variations), good jumping (ghands/elim with trace, sense, presences etc), sub par ranged (spear is amazing, but its strictly finite), good instakills (best set of them in the game on one class, potent timed/mana based/vivisect).

    Willpower/mana intensive, paladins will ruin your day if you don't keep them permanently clumsy (and even then demons will make you cry).

    Does not require artifacts to be extremely affective, advances in systems are making them progressively more frustrating to play (and ruining a lot of the cool tricks they used to be known for, but that's par for the course in today's Achaea unfortunately). All told, awesome class.

    Shaman kind of sucks in comparrison. You can kill people who don't know what they're doing against shaman, but people with a half good system and an understanding of the class will lol at you all day. The tzantza nerf was an enormous hit to the benefit of their super fast affliction stacking. The change to vodun speed will have made them a lot less frustrating to play (previously stripping speed cost 10 fashions, which was ridiculously obnoxious since spamming sip speed when a shaman started amassing a doll could potentially shut down their offense).

    Pretty depressing in teams. As a totemer you'll be one of if not the first ranged target, you have mediocre ranged (thurisaz is a situationally superior meteor stopped by flood), you'll get next to no kills in groups (as most people aren't cool with pausing their system as a high prio target to do a timed instakill: your only viable group killshot outside of weaponry). You're not super tanky ( algiz is nice, but its mostly benefitial in one v one. You'll suffer a lot in groups since a big part of shaman tanking is tumbling passed stonewalls with ground regen runes and such).

    Utility is pretty good (raido, doll travel, runes/totems). Would never recommend shaman though.

    I'd also not recommend jester. Bomb inaccuracies, high upkeep, inferior tanking, high reliance on tricks in a metagame that is promoting systems which specifically target trick based strategies makes it a very underwhelming option at present. Whether that'll change in the future is hard to say, but jester tends to ingender much frustration in its users. Its good, but caters to a specific kind of player. If you're not sure you'd enjoy it, you most likely won't.

    Again, no kills in groups, high prio target because tarot user, some of the worst if not the worst damage mitigation on game (that is to say, you have none). Some of the best utility with tarot/puppetry combination.

    Tl;dr: GO apostate.

  • Fantastic posts from the both of you, it seems my decision is made. Thanks for your assistance.
  • How would you all rank magi up with those other classes? I've seriously been considering a class change to it.

  • Apostate: Cool class combat-wise. It all has been mentioned, really. The reason there are relatively few apostates around is probably threefold:
    1. It's an affliction class, and there are always fewer people playing combatants as those than others, perhaps because of the learning curve (but personally I find the learning curve for limb-damage based combat quite as steep, if not more so).
    2. It's strongly aligned, and not only that: it's aligned with one of the smallest factions.
    3. Most of its utility is combat-based. An affliction class like serpent has lots of non-combat utility which makes it attractive to people who aren't interested in PvP as well, while the apostate skillset is really quite focused on fighting.

    Shaman: Cool skills in theory, but quite lacking in practice. Each of their three skills is decent, but meshes better with other classes: Vodun (i.e. puppetry) works better with Jesters, since Jesters have far more defensive potential to get the required number of fashions. Runelore works better with Runewardens for runeblades, damage-stacking etc. Curses alone don't kill anyone with a somewhat decent system.
    Furthermore shamans have only pitiful ranged abilities and are perhaps one of the weakest classes defensively, so you have to be quite good not to get killed before being able to do anything with vodun. Their primary defensive issue is the lack of hindering (except vodun bind, I guess) combined with their difficulties at running from a room with block/walls/etc.

    Jester: All right, but their main offensive tricks only work in specific circumstances and/or against people who haven't yet learned about them. Pitiful range as well, and in group combat everyone else just gets the kills you enable with hangedman/aeon. Good defensive capabilities, but they don't just work passively, so you have to learn to actually make use of them and play very defensively, or you might get killed very fast. (I find jesters the easiest class to lock of all if they don't actively do something against it, and one of the hardest if they do.)

    Magi: Great class if you know how to work it, especially in group combat. Winning with damage doesn't work as easily as it used to anymore and will require a load of arties, so a lot of it comes down to whether you are able to master retardation or not. This is much easier against some classes/opponents than others though, as certain classes can mess a magi up quite horribly in retardation. But every class has some weaknesses against specific other classes, so that's no actual major downside.
  • Magi is extremely strong. Has decent utility (fly, reflection, a terrible tentacle tattoo, flood, sandling to name a few) in elementalism, crystalhome in crystalism (assuming you're in a magi relevant house). Its damage reduction is some of the best in the game (diamond/stone skin are probably hands down the best cutting/blunt reduction if you play a high int class, can stack with horkval armour bonus if you're so inclined). Necklace of purity is hugely underrated. Post buff its some of the best passive healing on game, and has 0 active cost (beyond wearing it once created). Great for fighting affliction classes and in retardation particularly. The ability to always be able to recharge resistance rings and charge shield also make for extremely good elemental resistance when compared to other classes.

    In one v one magi excells because retardation still remains an amazing equaliser against highly artifacted opponents particularly, or people you couldn't otherwise last very long against if they were allowed to build up momentum (alchemists, blademasters for instance). The advent of retardation curing has made magi a lot less potent in that regard than it used to be, but it is still very strong (especially if you have vibes ready, which you should).

    Damage as Iocun said is inferior now, although you might still get some people with holocausts. Its Definitely not the go to though anymore, even artifacted magi can struggle to outdamage certain unartifacted class combinations post traits.

    You will struggle against certain classes though as a magi. Blademasters will impale you off of every attack (nothing really new there though, lolknees), and your lack of practical hinder means that momentum classes may have a far easier time against you than against other classes. The long eq costs of all magi attacks can be somewhat mitigated with a diadem and quick whitted, but its still something to be aware of.

    As for raids, magi is never unwelcome. High damage, very tanky, good support with chargeshield/reflections, room control with standard vibes/plague, and obviously retardation which is one of the best if not the best group abilities on game for a small group to take down a vastly larger one (or for a group to take down another regardless of who is bigger, for that matter). Cataclysm goes without saying really, probably the best area control ability in the game (providing you have the three magi, which is its only downside).

    Your LoS will suck (firelash), you'll be a high priority target if you get a reputation for having a clue how to use retardation in teams or holding cataclysms, and you'll burn tons of crystals if you get into group combat. But yes, good class.

  • edited October 2012
  • On the theme of class overviews: I want to make a Knight alt but I can't decide between Runewarden and Paladin. Raido and all those +stats seems ridiculous, but Devotion also seems really powerful and Damnation is awesome even if I'll never pull it off.

    Paladin seems more fun, but Runewarden seems stronger - especially because I probably won't have good rapiers for a while.

    Any suggestions?
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  • AchillesAchilles Los Angeles
    The biggest problem with Paladin in groups is redundancy.  You much rather have 4 runewardens and 1 paladin than 4 paladins and 1 runewarden (which is the current ratio more or less).

    As far as hunting goes, Runewardens easily the best with superior weapons and always having access to runes. They lack a immediate healing ability like hands but if you are hunting the right stuff you don't really need to hands anyways.

    As for dueling its Infernal>Runewarden>Paladins.  Vivisect setups are the most plausible, Runewardens lack a instant kill like vivisect and damnation but damnation is pretty difficult to pull off so most Paladins go for the usual torso damage dsb which means they just do it slower than a runewarden.
  • edited October 2012
    The last bit isn't really true... Unless you just want to fight novices all day, then perhaps. Runewarden is very very strong if you can get Salik/Mizik-style rapiers, otherwise (it is still strong, with wunjo+nairat/stonewalls/runeblades/runes) but I'd put Paladin higher than Runewarden. They can do what a runewarden can but a hell of a lot better and with more options.

    In reality, all Knights are actually very similar defensively. All get access to arc, all get access to a piety/gravehands/wunjo+nairat kind of utility in defence. Infernals get vigour and putrefaction, runewardens get increased straight tanking and paladins get hands and revit. One of the biggest things about Knights though is the weapon reliance. Of course it depends mostly on skill, but for example *Point Salik*. Runewardens can augment their weapons making them hit harder and faster, but that's basically it. Paladins get cleansing and demons, dazzle and force, damnation, purity/arc and inspiration on top of fury. Infernals basically have vivisect, which is totally easy to negate anyway. 

    Honestly? Pick a Knight class that you like flavour wise.

  • Agree with Garao. Runewarden dps is arguably better, but damage over time possibly not (runewarden can exceed paladin damage with rune stacks, but paladin gets a huge benefit of damage over time from demons and invisible def stripping). Stripping a serpents scales, necromancers putrefaction, etc invisibly can give you a huge, very unexpected burst of damage. (Particularly notable at high tier, where combatants will tend to know based on the previous part of the fight how much they can and can't tank. Altering that can be what changes the fight if it happens unexpectedly).

    As for limb preps, yeah, Garao's right. Paladin can do everything that runewarden can pretty much and a lot more (purity/arc, the various offensive rites and ability to prevent a person from mountjumping out reliably, etc).

    Runewardens better if you're new to combat and just want to damage people out reliably. Paladin's better at higher tier, IMO.

    Infernals hard to place since it can absolutely own people unaccustomed to dealing with vivisect or be rendered pretty impotent against people who know how to cure around it. Same for most things though, so eh.

  • Disagree with both Garao and Tanris. Runewarden limb prep is not the same as paladin simply because of runeblades. Burst damage is always more valuable than damage over time. Vivisect is still a potent and very viable kill despite the numerous attempts to downplay it over the years.
  • edited October 2012
    I disagree with you about vivisect. It's a strong finisher if you get a ridiculously lucky falcon tick, your opponent is using svo and/or doesn't know how to avoid a vivisect.

    The only way I can see how to get a vivisect outside of that is to have a staff of illusions

    I agree on the other points, apart from the burst damage over damage over time. Mana damage is something that's downplayed very often but is very significant if you think about it. Burst damage is strong, as a runie it's pretty easy to avoid their burst damage as opposed to Paladin, because Paladin burst damage comes from the unexpected. Runewardens doesn't. 

    I sparred Zinka 4 times at Delos, Infernal vs Paladin. I'm not sure what rapiers she was using, but falcon + cleansing is a f-ing nightmare to deal with. And putrefaction is like a 4s eq to put up. You spend half the fight next to zero mana or spamming vigour/sapience from demons + damage, checking defences to try and counteract silent stripping. Then when you actually finally get the setup, arc will stop any shatter attempts, so that is out of the question. If she can tumble quickly, I'm going to hit piety trying to follow. Or if I'm not quick enough to get the two limb vivisect, she can stand up and run away from not restoring, etc etc. I honestly find Paladin damage more difficult to deal with than Runewarden damage as an Infernal. The only reason she lost was because I don't think she knows how to deal with vivisect very well. On top of that, I died the first time from straight damage, the other three I was so close to dying pretty consistently throughout -- and i'll be honest. Zinka wasn't really doing all that much to impress offensively (don't get me wrong, she is good, but my point is if she'd done more she would've wiped the floor with me 4 times in a row as a near 5k health infernal.)

    Now imagine what the fight would've been like from her perspective (up until the vivisects anyway). 

  • edited October 2012

    Runewarden speed is tough to live without once you taste it, but man Devotion just packs so much punch along Chivalry. And Force is so amazing.

    Also, offensive Piety is so nasty for securing jumps/kills. Defensively, Wunjo/Nairat and Gular break about even.

    I like Runewarden for its more reliable parry bypass, but Paladin's Force, Purity, Piety just sent a lot of my fights into undertime, and mana flatlining just opened up so many possibilities that I couldn't pull off as Infernal/Runewarden (mmm knight Impatience).  Also, picking fights with Occies as Paladin is hilarious. Banishment is like the last TRB type ability we all get to laugh at and enjoy.

    And man do I envy all you dudes in your low tier blissfully ignorant wonderland, talking about burst damage ground runes. If your opponent isn't flooding, then it's not a real fight. Having tried both, I prefered the less predictable burst capability of Paladin. Runewarden is just so linear and predictable.

    Edit: dang Garao, we ninja forum soulmates

  • edited October 2012
    You explain in words I just can't seem to find. 

    Though I was trying to hint at mana, not just tell everyone.

  • AchillesAchilles Los Angeles
    edited October 2012
    As someone who spars a lot of Paladins on a regular basis and lets them use rites I never ever have problem with burst damage.  If you have a sip ring and 5500 health its not much of a concern.  Thus I don't see how losing putrefaction would make a difference at the higher (artied especially) tiers.  I think the problem here is you consider yourself higher tier when all you had to do was sit through the 3-4 hour Kalvon-Tirac marathon to see the viability of the instakills.
  • edited October 2012
    Kalvon died to vivisect of his own error. Nothing to do with its viability. He'd tell you himself (but if you want to know exactly why, I'd be happy to PM.)

    That's also like me saying I spar Infernal's regularly and have only been vivisected once a million years ago... heh. I'm just questioning the validity of you AS A PALADIN (your defence, dude) saying that you don't get outdamaged when you have a sip ring and 5500 health 

  • AchillesAchilles Los Angeles
    We are talking supposedly high end combat right?  Well simple burst damage doesn't work once you get around that threshold.  Then your only real kill tactic is disembowel with torso damage and there are numerous ways to avoid that.
  • As is the case with most fights against 2 experienced fighters, it is the little mistakes that end up winning or losing the fight. One can only compare the margin for error between different setups, and vivisect's still remains the best out of the 3 knight classes. In a perfect world of perfect curing, no setup is viable. Of course I remain biased, as a paladin, when I say that damnation has the least viability. But that is the exact bias that I was brought into the ACC to share.
  • Thanks for the responses; Paladin seems like what I want. Is weaponry as a Knight worth it (past Parry) if lessons are limited?
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  • Depends on what you're sacrificing to continue in weaponry. You can do fine without transcendent weaponry and just up to Skilled, but the higher you can get the better. Don't sacrifice your class skills and survival for it (but you can do without Forging, heh).

  • Re: cleansing, randomness and unpredictability in general.

    I think you'll find that in most pvp, the outcome of a fight can be said to boil down to two factors: luck and skill. The less dependence on rng a class has, the more player ability factors into the equation. I would say that as a player becomes more skilled, he will tend to be biased towards reducing rng in fights as the outcome would then favour the player with more skill, which gives him the advantage. This is likely why there was such an outrage over the old disembowel with knights and falcon balance. People did not enjoy fights which were determined by rng and there have since been many changes to move pvp away from that.

    When I lay a rite of cleansing, I don't rely on it to win me fights. I expect it to at make my opponent have to check his defenses on a regular basis, slowing their offense down so I will be subject to less offensive setups over the course of the duel and consequently less chances to make a mistake.

    I expect a serpent walking into a fight with a paladin to know this and during the lulls of the fight, perform these checks to put his defenses back up. Any divergent behaviour is a player error, and an easily correctable one. If for some reason you manage to be prepped with torso damage and have scales stripped right before a disembowel and died as a result of that, you should have avoided the dsb to begin with.
  • MishgulMishgul Trondheim, Norway
    Good luck > good system > player ability.

    Everytime anyone ever dies, it is either bad luck or lag. I have many logs and testimonials in regards to this.


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  • edited October 2012
    I tend to agree with Kalvon regarding vivisect and the rather small margin of defensive error some setups allow, when compared to certain other finishers (such as damnation). There's no doubt that vivisect is completely preventable in almost all cases, but it takes only a small mistake at the wrong moment and you die to it, without a second chance to correct your mistake. If you, say, fail to restore in the timespan of one dsl at one point, for whatever reason (being distracted, something throwing you off balance/equilibrium, lag, amnesia, whatever), you can die very suddenly. And this is pretty much bound to happen eventually during a very long fight against an infernal who fights well and doesn't mess up his limb count.

    I'm by no means saying that vivisect is more powerful than the finishers many other classes have, but just saying "it's completely preventable" doesn't quite catch the whole issue, IMHO. It is a good ability.

    I'm pretty sure that if Tirac hadn't considered vivisect to be an at least potentially viable way of killing an experienced opponent, he wouldn't even have tried it against Kalvon.
  • All instant kills are preventable. How good it is depends on how quickly it can be prepped and how small the margin of error to fail preventing it is.

    In regards to that I'd rate heartseed, brokenstar, and vivisect as the three best instantkills. Though death tarot will always be a favourite of mine.

                   Party right, party hard,

                                            Sing and dance, perfect bard.

                                                                     Prefarar loop, accentato whore,

                                                                                             Buy a new rapier, get nerfed some more.

  • Vivisect -is- more powerful than other class finishers, though, and even if it is "avoidable", that 100% avoidance leaves you open to many other kill strategies.

  • edited October 2012
    I agree with Cooper , even though by having me agree with him I am probably weakening his position. (Though I have to say heartseed and brokenstar are just as good IMO)

    On second thought, I have no idea how things are post-frenzy.
  • Brokenstar is just a ridiculous finisher on top of all that is BM, it can't fairly be compared to anything else really. I've had a lot of trouble with bms for a long time though, so I'm rather bias when it comes to talking about them, though I know quite a few combatents that feel the same way.

    Vivisect was better than heartseed even pre-frenzy, since it has a smaller window in which one can prevent it. That being said, as of now there are no systems that attempt to automatically detect and prevent heartseed, and prepping heartseed only requires targetting in weaponry and being able to count to four on your hand. 

                   Party right, party hard,

                                            Sing and dance, perfect bard.

                                                                     Prefarar loop, accentato whore,

                                                                                             Buy a new rapier, get nerfed some more.

  • edited October 2012
    never mind
  • Tanris said:

    Jester is an interesting class. On one hand it has this reputation of being incredibly op, but in practice its really not that great. In the past it dominated but over time its suffered from progressive downgrades and no upgrades, with increasingly large random factors added to a lot of their attacks. This has had the net result of it becoming fairly underwhelming in reality, with a lot of fundamental flaws that frustrate a lot of people. It can still work, but its not anywhere near as scary as a lot of things now (and its probably the most  script heavy class offensively due to all the things you'll need to manage). Would not recommend. If you do want to go this, you will absolutely require trans avoidance (jesters one of the most fragile classes), and have to learn to be very aware of avoiding locks, as you don't really have many "oops I messed up buttons, halp" akin to fitness etc.

    I agree with this, not that I matter any more!

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