PvP Alt

Sylvance

So I want to give PvP a try, and for various reasons I wish to do so on another character.

Can anybody give me even the vaguest idea of what kind of credit investment we're talking about for the 'obligatories' (tri-trans, essential non-class skills, plus are there any 'must have' artefacts for PvP)?

Please don't misunderstand me here, I'm not expecting to buy my way into the combat ranks.  Once I've done the grind to a decent level, spent all of my lessons/freecredz wisely and actually taken the time to learn how the new class works, what kind of shortfall am I left with, just in terms of credits? Guessing that the answer will likely vary by class as well; this is precisely the type of information I'm asking for.

Kresslack

I'm not much of a combatant anymore, but generally there are no 'must have artefacts' when it comes to combat. I believe Carmain was a top fighter who didn't use artefacts, and was also using the Nexus client for a long time. 

If it's something you decide to take seriously, might recommend a Crit pendant and Buckawns. 

Kazu

Transing three skills will cost around 613 credits for a you.  On top of that, I also highly recommend survival, which would be about another 210.  This is assuming you don't count any of the credits/lessons from leveling though. Also, some classes don't need all three of their class skills to be effective, such as magi.

Learning other skills past that is really up to you, but avoidance can be a nice damage decrease. Can't really recommend any artefacts until you tell us what class you wanted to be.

Iocun

Well, if you want to give PvP a try, normally you'd start out in the arena first, and you don't really need buckawn's for that. Nor do you absolutely need it for a lot of other 1v1 combat, but it sure gets handy eventually.

Not quite sure where the crit pendant suggestion is coming from when we're talking about PvP. Just to reach a decent level? The pendants usually only get really good once you have a decent level though and are going to dragon, which doesn't seem necessary to me just to give PvP a try.

Personally, I consider the best general PvP arties to be pipes, but then that's mostly convenience and certainly no absolute necessity. Other than that it depends entirely on the class you're choosing. Some classes really shine with good artie investments (e.g. monks, but also magi, serpents, forestals, etc.) while others (e.g. apostates, jesters) can do very well without any artefacts at all.

Most important thing to get is obviously a good curing system, by either making it or buying one.

Vansittart

Hey, I just tried something similar with this character (not focusing exclusively on PvP but want to be PvP capable anyway).  If you're focused on an alt, lesson packages are more cost-effective.  I picked up 3 of the 2k lesson packages for $180, which will be cheaper than buying 600 credits ($200).  Those lesson packages plus the levelling credits gave me enough to tri-trans, plus trans survival and throw some lessons into vision for elixlist.  I think I picked up some other credits somewhere along the line which might make those figures exact but they should be close enough.  Hope that was helpful!

Nellaundra

You need the following things:

Tri-transcendent skills.
Transcendent in Survival
A bloody good weapon if your class uses them.
And a very good curing system.

From there, it all depends on what class you use.

Sylvance

Thanks guys

How much does the Buckawns cost? Sorry, can't find it in the artefacts files for some reason.

Arador

Nellaundra has it right. You might get away with slightly less, depending on class but what you should aim for. I would suggest up to Elixlist in Vision just for the convenience of checking your supplies.

Ellodin

isn't there a lesson sale right now?

as far as actual logistics or mechanics, just win.

Vaehl

Not all classes require trans survival (though get tumble), not all classes require tritrans, Sylvan/Priest could use a diadem, otherwise you're fine with an SoA and maybe a sip ring for most classes if you really really want to have artefacts. Don't need great weapons, just good ones. Curing systems, you already have Omnipave.

Sweet, how did my avatar get so cool.

Nellaundra

When I was a Monk, I made do with enough Survival for Physiology thanks to Kaido having a lot of the same abilities.  I also murdered a lot of stuff with just Tekura with Kaido as a supplement and barely ever touched Telepathy.  Not -all- classes require Tri-Trans or those other requirements I listed, but most do.

Sena

Assuming you want to get started as fast as possible, rather than taking the time to get credits in-game:

If you need 4 trans skills (tri-trans+survival for example, or dual-trans+survival+vision), get an iron membership (just one month is enough) and the 600 credit package. This will cost $223 and get you 100 bound credits, 660 unbound credits, and 5 lessons per day (on all your characters) for the month. Combined with reaching level 70, you'll be able to trans 4 skills and close to virtuoso in another. Alternatively, you can buy 3 of the 2000-lesson packages for $180, which will let you trans 4 skills plus about skilled in another.

If you only need 3 trans skills (dual-trans+survival, or tri-trans), get an iron membership (at least one month) and the 400 credit package. Costs $165, will get you 100 bound credits and 440 unbound (plus the 5 lessons per day), which is enough for 3 trans skills and close to expert in another. Alternatively, buy 2 of the 2000-lesson packages for $120, which will bring you to just under 3 trans skills (you'll be about 100 lessons away).

This is more to give you an idea of the costs, rather than telling you what you'll need. You can also just spend what you can afford (or spend nothing at all, but at least an iron membership for $25 would be a good idea), and buy the rest of the credits with gold if you don't mind waiting a bit.

Tanris

Trans survival, whatever necessary trans class skills.

Trans avoidance is pretty necessary honestly if you're not a tanky class, otherwise you're going to suffer heavily from damage.

Don't overlook the 2.5 lesson bonus on the first thousand or so converted credits.

You don't need any artifacts when starting out combat. I can't really think of anyone successful who started out by buying artifacts, they're something most people buy as and when they feel they're a good idea.

I disagree with this idea you absolutely require a good curing system. Numerous people managed just fine on tin can systems (Carmain pre omni on nexus, Mizik until a couple of months ago on a barely working version of vadi m, etc). A good system let's you worry less about defence, but then I would also make the argument that using a less capable curing system will force you to understand defence more, and may be a better idea initially. Unless you make one yourself of course, in which case you will have to learn the ins and outs thoroughly anyway. Mostly depends if you want to get passable at combat or learn it in depth.

We can likely help more if you suggest a few classes you might be interested in, as lesson requirements very pretty hugely between them.

Sylvance

I'm thinking Jester (for pvp+RP) or Knight (for pvp+forging).

ETA - Serpent for ninjaness

May be worth mentioning that I'm not interested in RPing a religious char; not sure if that limits my prospects as a Knight in Shallam or Mhaldor?

Tanris

Jester is an interesting class. On one hand it has this reputation of being incredibly op, but in practice its really not that great. In the past it dominated but over time its suffered from progressive downgrades and no upgrades, with increasingly large random factors added to a lot of their attacks. This has had the net result of it becoming fairly underwhelming in reality, with a lot of fundamental flaws that frustrate a lot of people. It can still work, but its not anywhere near as scary as a lot of things now (and its probably the most  script heavy class offensively due to all the things you'll need to manage). Would not recommend. If you do want to go this, you will absolutely require trans avoidance (jesters one of the most fragile classes), and have to learn to be very aware of avoiding locks, as you don't really have many "oops I messed up buttons, halp" akin to fitness etc.

Knight is a very good class to start out as. Does require investment for passably good weapons/armour (unless you make your own, which takes time/possible investment in a hammer of forging although you can borrow), very good group utility (some of the best, actually), mechanically logical kill strategies. Not that script heavy, you'll likely want a limb counter and can get by with just that. You wouldn't necessarily need trans avoidance due to knights high base tanking, and fitness gives you a bit of breathing room when learning to avoid locks and such.
 
Serpent is an incredibly powerful class. Amazing defence, amazing utility, some of the fastest kills on the game. Its also one of the hardest for someone new to combat to learn (many top tier people can't get the hang of serpent, either). It caters to a specific kind of player, and many people will claim in this generation of AI you almost require an artie dirk of some level. You will not start out doing well as a serpent, it will take a lot of work and you might still hate it. I'd start out as a different class first, but review serpent later if its something you think you'd still be interested in after learning how stuff works.

Tl;dr: I'd suggest knight for someone starting out, from your list.

Jurixe

I have nothing to add on the combat front, but just wanted to say that if you want to play an Infernal it'll almost definitely have to be Mhaldorian or you will probably get excommed and then not be able to use some of your skills. If by 'knight' you meant 'runewarden', then ignore this.

You can't really escape the religious element in Mhaldor, even if your character personally doesn't do that much for it, so if you're trying to avoid it completely I would say probably best not to make a Mhaldorian. Since you're  going to make an alt anyway, though, you might as well experience a completely different side/style of the game while you're at it! If you don't like it you can always qq and join something else.

Sylvance

@tanris Awesome, thanks. Don't suppose you have time to mention BM also please?

Sylvance

@jurixe Good to know! I meant Infernal and Runey so thanks. I don't mind being surrounded by IG zealots, just not interested in personally RPing it.

I'm now torn between Knight and Serpent. I'd say I like a challenge, but if that were the case I'd just make another Bard...

So... Shallam or Hashan Runey is looking best so far.

Jespar

well mizik is getting by with trans twoarts and a bit of striking as far as i know

Tanris

Bm is pretty much the defining "god this is op right now". You can check the last few days deathsight history if you want proof. In groups, bm is pretty unparalleled for melee. Its got outstanding support (voidfist, incredibly fast stun/afflict, impale, impaleslash), an instakill which is extremely viable (brokenstar), meshes well with just about every class matchup there is. Its also got an extremely diverse set of options in one v one. You would need trans avoidance, but if you're looking for a really fun class with a lot of options, bm would hands down be my go to (and really, the class is just so cool flavour text wise).

Yes, I am a blademaster fan.

Jespar

Tanris said:

Yes, I am a blademaster fan.

going to change? =P

Tanris

Amunet would never forgive me. Plus, they have mindnet. I would never forgive myself, and neither would my pay cheque.

Sylvance

Doesn't the fact that BM is so awesome kinda guarantee it'll be.nerfed fairly soon?

Sena

Sylvance said:

Doesn't the fact that BM is so awesome kinda guarantee it'll be.nerfed fairly soon?

Not necessarily. Unless "fairly soon" means "within the next year", in which case it is very likely. It will probably always be a powerful class though, there's not much chance it will be nerfed into uselessness.

Tanris

Tbh, most you'll likely see happen to bm is a voidfist downgrade. Nothing else is particularly broken, just very strong.

Sylvance

Okay, seriously, HUGE thanks to everyone who's answered; you've been crazy-helpful.

 

See y'all on the battlefield in another life

Iocun

Tanris said:

I disagree with this idea you absolutely require a good curing system. Numerous people managed just fine on tin can systems (Carmain pre omni on nexus, Mizik until a couple of months ago on a barely working version of vadi m, etc). A good system let's you worry less about defence, but then I would also make the argument that using a less capable curing system will force you to understand defence more, and may be a better idea initially.

I agree that a great system is no absolute necessity, but when it comes to what you get for your money, I'd still rate the common systems quite a bit higher than every single artefact, if you don't want to write your own. There's also the thing that the people you mentioned have been combatants for long and had a lot of time to get to their current defensive skill. When you start out with combat nowadays and refuse to write your own system, you will most likely hit a barrier before long that is very hard to cross.

That being said, I haven't ever told anyone in-game to buy a system. When dealing with novices I always focus on teaching actual curing techniques and I will rather help them to make a very primitive set of curing triggers than tell them to buy a ready-made system. My reasoning is that by the time they arrive at that barrier, they will most likely have heard about systems anyways, so it's not my job to lead them in that direction any earlier than that. I'd rather they spend that first time learning about curing and trying out things.

Sena said:

Sylvance said:

Doesn't the fact that BM is so awesome kinda guarantee it'll be.nerfed fairly soon?

Not necessarily. Unless "fairly soon" means "within the next year", in which case it is very likely. It will probably always be a powerful class though, there's not much chance it will be nerfed into uselessness.

There's also the fact that certain classes can withstand quite a lot of nerfs while still staying quite powerful. Monk has perhaps been the most freqently nerfed class of all over quite a long timespan, but it's still not a weak class by any means.

Kazu

I'd also like to point out that Forging is pretty wasteful for a knight class unless you plan to actually market your weapons.  It would be much cheaper to buy your weapons/armour than actually spend ~200 credits to trans forging, 400 for a hammer, and then add in all the comm costs.  As long as you keep them within stasis, they should last you for well over 400 rl days.

If you want another interesting class, I''m going to throw monk out there. As Nellanudra said, it can be highly effective with just Tekura and a smattering of Kaido, but the upper level stuff will require Trans.  It's also one of the better bashing classes, so you will have less of a hassle their as well.  Futher, it also has a very very low upkeep cost, requiring only leather armour.

Another class you might want to look at is Magi. it's highly effective with just the two class skills and survival.  It also has one of the more fun
mechanics in the game in retardation, that even experienced fighters can fall to.

Edit: Iocun is right by the way. My pipes are probably my best investment ever.  You don't really need all three, but you should at least get one for elm.

Kresslack

Tanris said:

Bm is pretty much the defining "god this is op right now". You can check the last few days deathsight history if you want proof. In groups, bm is pretty unparalleled for melee. Its got outstanding support (voidfist, incredibly fast stun/afflict, impale, impaleslash), an instakill which is extremely viable (brokenstar), meshes well with just about every class matchup there is. Its also got an extremely diverse set of options in one v one. You would need trans avoidance, but if you're looking for a really fun class with a lot of options, bm would hands down be my go to (and really, the class is just so cool flavour text wise).

Yes, I am a blademaster fan.

BM also has Deathstrike which can be good for Retardation/Aeon setups.

Peak

@Sylvance if you become knight and expect to forge you own stuff with a small investment... lol

Don't get lessons in forging unless:

1. You're serious about the character and staying that class.
2. You have roughly 700cr to spend on making your great weapons and good fullplate.
3. You realize -right now- that you will never profit from making rapiers*. (Salik might think he has, but I promise, he hasn't)*unless you make something amazing right away and stop forever.
4. You completely understand that forging 1 set of fullplate costs roughly 10k and you have a 1/700ish chance of making something "good".

Forging is betting against your odds.

Being runewarden allows for some slack in making your weapons/the ones you buy.

Cahin

Tanris said:

Mizik until a couple of months ago on a barely working version of vadi m,

That's what that was?  I swear sometimes it just ate herbs for the hell of it. Sometimes like 3 at a time.

Main thing that I think needs touched upon in the system area, is you need to learn the shortcomings of your system. Every system has them and being able to protect yourself against situations like that is going to get you killed less.