New Forum, Altered Rules

Jumpy

Guys, if you are going to be a tool on the forums, you are going to get banned on the forums. If you abuse the crap out of a god on the forums, they are not going to want to play with you. Gods are not going to start zapping people for forum comments. That said, you can't expect people you are making fun of on the forums to want to have anything to do with you in the game. We are going to much more ban happy on the forums with people who cannot not be a jerk. 

We are fine with criticism. I especially have a thick skin. However there is a different between criticism and just being mean. We are going to happily ban players who just want to troll the forums and attack volunteers and players just because they get a kick out of it.

Eiredhel

I'm sure the Gods are likely going to be reasonable with how they respond to forum criticism, but I think the rule should be changed regardless; the game should not be encouraging blurring OOC/IC boundaries. I just can't see any good reason at all for having something that is, in principle, promoting lack of player-character separation. It's essentially just as ridiculous as, say, disfavouring someone in-game for sending you an email.

I think it's completely fair to be honest seeing as how OOC/IC blurred most of the community seems to be. Plus when it comes to the gods the discontentment often leaks from IC to OOC and visa versa. So say if a god wasn't around or missed something I think it's fine for them to take an OOC rant or complaint on the forums into account and follow up on it. 

I think it's weird to assume that the gods using this blur will usually be negatively. There are so many people trying to do so many things for the game, their orgs, and other players it'd be impossible for a real mortal to handle it, however them using this OOC information will help the divine have that additional informational boost to help them feel godly. There are many things that happen that it'd be reasonable to assume that the gods would know about, but they don't. 

Plus anything that'd encourage the divine to explain themselves oocly when they upset someone oocly and feel like the playing ground is even, is great.

Players could do a lot more to hurt divine than the divine could do to them. 

But that's just my tiny opinion on the matter. 

And another note, it'd help players see that a lot of the gods may be around more often than it appears. 

Jiraishin

This is a form of addressing it. If I were a Divine and those rants were about me, I wouldn't become more motivated to fix things. I'd lose motivation and I'd probably quit.

Mannimar

A lot of the things said about Divines on the forums made me uncomfortable. Even if they're honest, not all opinions need to be shared. I'm glad to see -something- is being done to prevent the sort of extreme bitterness and negativity I'm used to reading.

I agree with you, but not everyone has the mindset of "if you come with a problem, bring ideas for a solution" so it just turns into mass rants about how the Divine handle things rather than a note for future interactions

Jumpy

A lot of the things said about Divines on the forums made me uncomfortable. Even if they're honest, not all opinions need to be shared. I'm glad to see -something- is being done to prevent the sort of extreme bitterness and negativity I'm used to reading.

You don't think the something that should be done is a greater emphasis on staff sensitivity to players' needs and expectations?

Yeah. Feel free to post about it. Just don't be a tool.

Jumpy

This is a form of addressing it. If I were a Divine and those rants were about me, I wouldn't become more motivated to fix things. I'd lose motivation and I'd probably quit.

Happens quite a bit in fact. 

Profit

This is a form of addressing it. If I were a Divine and those rants were about me, I wouldn't become more motivated to fix things. I'd lose motivation and I'd probably quit.

Happens quite a bit in fact. 

I suspect differently but I suppose that time will prove one of us wrong. People are naturally resilient and though extreme instances of criticism might contribute to some degree to a volunteer quitting, I would wager that there are other, more major causes in the mix, as well.

Eiredhel

You and your conspiracy theories.  

Sothantos

First of all, I'd like to clarify that I disagree with the rule not because of personal concern for my character: I've never frequented the forums much, and I've never gotten in trouble with the administration. Probably anyone will be able to attest to this. What I find wrong here is the principle behind the rule, which I think most people are overlooking in its defense. Yes, it's reasonable that a God might decide to ignore you in-game if they're offended by you OOCly, but if that's what it will mostly amount to, why is this rule necessary at all? The wording implies more active consequences than that. It doesn't matter to what degree someone is being an idiot on the forums: it's just completely nonsensical to punish someone in-character as a God for something they didn't do in an in-character role. Think about it this way: if someone asked the God IC why they punished Bob Smith if all they did was be a dick on the forums, what exactly are they going to say?

Profit

You and your conspiracy theories.  

I have three (recently) former gods on AIM and Skype; none of them quit because people were being mean to them on the forums.

That's really as far as I'm willing to go on that subject.

Silas

Everybody supporting this rule is crazy, to be honest. The sole intent behind it, given the responses, is to let players know that Gods are volunteers and won't want to play with people who bash them on the forums. Since when is common sense worthy of such a ridiculously worded rule?

Also: not trying to be smart, but the way things were going on the old forums over the last few weeks was bringing about a lot of positive change, and bringing in a lot more positive energy. Do you really want to mulishly piss that away for this one rule?

Jiraishin

@Sothantos: I basically agree with you except that people would complain at least as loudly if their posts were deleted or they were banned off forums. Hard to think of another OOC punishment.

EDIT: @ Silas: I can't tell if you're being sarcastic.

Namino

People quit their jobs all the time because they don't enjoy an aspect of it.

Being essentially the PR of IRE, part of the God's 'job description' is inherently fielding comments about their performance. Sometimes those will be glowing reviews. Sometimes they won't be. My job requires me to lift up to 60 pounds and carry it regularly. It said so on the resume. If I couldn't do that, I wouldn't have gotten the job.

If you can't take legitimate criticisms, then being in PR is not for you.

But again, I stress the word legitimate. @Sarapis: I understand your intention is probably to cull away the ridiculous, uncalled for attacks (IE, calling people the C-word). But having had experience with members of your staff in the past, I can say with total certainty that it is a mixed bag and that people have and will be punished for legitimate complaints.

Profit

@Sothantos: I basically agree with you except that people would complain at least as loudly if their posts were deleted or they were banned off forums. Hard to think of another OOC punishment.

Instead of punishing people for publicly criticising, why not set up proper channels for them to constructively criticise?

It's easy to rant and depersonalize people on the forum, to go off the deep end and really lay into them because you can justify it by saying, "They probably won't even read it."

If a system was set up whereby you could be assured that your criticism reached the right ears, I'd be willing to bet that not only would the comments be much more pleasant and constructive, but you'd see a reduction in forum god-rants, as well.

Jiraishin

Email.

Eiredhel

First of all, I'd like to clarify that I disagree with the rule not because of personal concern for my character: I've never frequented the forums much, and I've never gotten in trouble with the administration. Probably anyone will be able to attest to this. What I find wrong here is the principle behind the rule, which I think most people are overlooking in its defense. Yes, it's reasonable that a God might decide to ignore you in-game if they're offended by you OOCly, but if that's what it will mostly amount to, why is this rule necessary at all? The wording implies more active consequences than that. It doesn't matter to what degree someone is being an idiot on the forums: it's just completely nonsensical to punish someone in-character as a God for something they didn't do in an in-character role. Think about it this way: if someone asked the God IC why they punished Bob Smith if all they did was be a dick on the forums, what exactly are they going to say?

I honestly can't see anything wrong with the principle since I have no precedent to base it off of. And when you say 'dick' aren't you going to the lighter end of the spectrum in terms of bad behavior and attaching a more harsh punishment to it? I have a hard time believing the people playing the divines have so much time on their plates to be able to punish every little piece of sass they get on the forums. Moreover, if they really had that vindictive of personalities they would be able to find ways to get back at the players by just making situations happen to justify them making a players life miserable. 

I'm clearly being overly optimistic about it...

But I guess my main thing is, I constantly hear people complaining about lack of change and no real changes, so I think as players we should be supportive even if it ends up not working out if we want the administration to keep trying new things and not just throw their hands up and not bother trying at all.

I'm more than willing to take a small possible bad thing in hopes of a much better bigger picture. It's just a game and if things go south I can easy find something else to entertain myself until the nature of the beast changes to suit my ideals better. So while I find principles laudable and what not I really don't think they are worth it over the internet when progress is at stake. This could possibly end up being one of the best things for the game, but I doubt it will be the worst. Better to be daring and jump in head first than just sit with the same boring old routine which didn't do anything to help the situation.

You and your conspiracy theories.  

I have three (recently) former gods on AIM and Skype; none of them quit because people were being mean to them on the forums.

That's really as far as I'm willing to go on that subject.

The past always holds negatives, but it really isn't a good reason to try to stop change. There is rarely one right way to handle a situation. So cheer up a bit, your posts are really downsville. And I can't imagine how thinking like that is going to increase your enjoyment even if you do get your way.

Silas

EDIT: @ Silas: I can't tell if you're being sarcastic.

Nope, this is for real stupid.

Jiraishin

EDIT: @ Silas: I can't tell if you're being sarcastic.

Nope, this is for real stupid.

It was the bit about common sense that threw me.

Mannimar

@Sothantos: I basically agree with you except that people would complain at least as loudly if their posts were deleted or they were banned off forums. Hard to think of another OOC punishment.

Instead of punishing people for publicly criticising, why not set up proper channels for them to constructively criticise?

It's easy to rant and depersonalize people on the forum, to go off the deep end and really lay into them because you can justify it by saying, "They probably won't even read it."

If a system was set up whereby you could be assured that your criticism reached the right ears, I'd be willing to bet that not only would the comments be much more pleasant and constructive, but you'd see a reduction in forum god-rants, as well.

@Sothantos: I basically agree with you except that people would complain at least as loudly if their posts were deleted or they were banned off forums. Hard to think of another OOC punishment.

Instead of punishing people for publicly criticising, why not set up proper channels for them to constructively criticise?

It's easy to rant and depersonalize people on the forum, to go off the deep end and really lay into them because you can justify it by saying, "They probably won't even read it."

If a system was set up whereby you could be assured that your criticism reached the right ears, I'd be willing to bet that not only would the comments be much more pleasant and constructive, but you'd see a reduction in forum god-rants, as well.

I'd like to see this (the critic section), but there will always be that one person that won't try and help improve through critique, but I'd hope that no Divine were so thinned skinned that insults pushed them to quit playing.

Silas

It's common sense that if you're a dick to someone they won't want to play with you. Everybody is taught that as a child. We don't need a rule that blatantly encourages IC/OOC separation blurring to enforce that.

Eiredhel

It's common sense that if you're a dick to someone they won't want to play with you. Everybody is taught that as a child. We don't need a rule that blatantly encourages IC/OOC separation blurring to enforce that.

Mannimar

First of all, I'd like to clarify that I disagree with the rule not because of personal concern for my character: I've never frequented the forums much, and I've never gotten in trouble with the administration. Probably anyone will be able to attest to this. What I find wrong here is the principle behind the rule, which I think most people are overlooking in its defense. Yes, it's reasonable that a God might decide to ignore you in-game if they're offended by you OOCly, but if that's what it will mostly amount to, why is this rule necessary at all? The wording implies more active consequences than that. It doesn't matter to what degree someone is being an idiot on the forums: it's just completely nonsensical to punish someone in-character as a God for something they didn't do in an in-character role. Think about it this way: if someone asked the God IC why they punished Bob Smith if all they did was be a dick on the forums, what exactly are they going to say?

I honestly can't see anything wrong with the principle since I have no precedent to base it off of. And when you say 'dick' aren't you going to the lighter end of the spectrum in terms of bad behavior and attaching a more harsh punishment to it? I have a hard time believing the people playing the divines have so much time on their plates to be able to punish every little piece of sass they get on the forums. Moreover, if they really had that vindictive of personalities they would be able to find ways to get back at the players by just making situations happen to justify them making a players life miserable. 

I'm clearly being overly optimistic about it...

But I guess my main thing is, I constantly hear people complaining about lack of change and no real changes, so I think as players we should be supportive even if it ends up not working out if we want the administration to keep trying new things and not just throw their hands up and not bother trying at all.

I'm more than willing to take a small possible bad thing in hopes of a much better bigger picture. It's just a game and if things go south I can easy find something else to entertain myself until the nature of the beast changes to suit my ideals better. So while I find principles laudable and what not I really don't think they are worth it over the internet when progress is at stake. This could possibly end up being one of the best things for the game, but I doubt it will be the worst. Better to be daring and jump in head first than just sit with the same boring old routine which didn't do anything to help the situation.

The big issue is the ooc/ic blurring and it being the Divine's decision on punishment. I think it's a step in the right direction, but there is no place for us to give our critique, and it seems almost like punishment is the whimsical decision of said Divine

Eiredhel

The big issue is the ooc/ic blurring and it being the Divine's decision on punishment. I think it's a step in the right direction, but there is no place for us to give our critique, and it seems almost like punishment is the whimsical decision of said Divine

They said critique is fine and to email Tecton if said Divine is getting overly butt-hurt over legit advice. It's how we say it, not the fact that people are complaining that is the issue that's being addressed by the rule. ( at least from what I read and the specific wording used )

Sothantos

First of all, I'd like to clarify that I disagree with the rule not because of personal concern for my character: I've never frequented the forums much, and I've never gotten in trouble with the administration. Probably anyone will be able to attest to this. What I find wrong here is the principle behind the rule, which I think most people are overlooking in its defense. Yes, it's reasonable that a God might decide to ignore you in-game if they're offended by you OOCly, but if that's what it will mostly amount to, why is this rule necessary at all? The wording implies more active consequences than that. It doesn't matter to what degree someone is being an idiot on the forums: it's just completely nonsensical to punish someone in-character as a God for something they didn't do in an in-character role. Think about it this way: if someone asked the God IC why they punished Bob Smith if all they did was be a dick on the forums, what exactly are they going to say?

I honestly can't see anything wrong with the principle since I have no precedent to base it off of. And when you say 'dick' aren't you going to the lighter end of the spectrum in terms of bad behavior and attaching a more harsh punishment to it? I have a hard time believing the people playing the divines have so much time on their plates to be able to punish every little piece of sass they get on the forums. Moreover, if they really had that vindictive of personalities they would be able to find ways to get back at the players by just making situations happen to justify them making a players life miserable. 

Look at it this way: IF the rule is NOT used IG, what is the point of having a rule that basically enables a God to do anything in response to forum criticism at their own complete discretion? Where do we benefit from having something that blurs OOC/IC boundaries in a roleplaying game, when the same could be achieved through forum punishments?

I'm clearly being overly optimistic about it...

But I guess my main thing is, I constantly hear people complaining about lack of change and no real changes, so I think as players we should be supportive even if it ends up not working out if we want the administration to keep trying new things and not just throw their hands up and not bother trying at all.

I'm more than willing to take a small possible bad thing in hopes of a much better bigger picture. It's just a game and if things go south I can easy find something else to entertain myself until the nature of the beast changes to suit my ideals better. So while I find principles laudable and what not I really don't think they are worth it over the internet when progress is at stake. This could possibly end up being one of the best things for the game, but I doubt it will be the worst. Better to be daring and jump in head first than just sit with the same boring old routine which didn't do anything to help the situation.

This argument is inherently faulty in that it assumes this is an either-or situation. Yes, changes are coming, but there's no reason why we can't both welcome the good changes and disagree with the poor ones. I think it's unfair to view the people naysaying this rule as pessimistic: we're trying to help. I, for one, am quite optimistic about the future direction of the game, but that doesn't mean that I have to be in accordance with every single thing that the admin pushes forward.

Namino

The big issue is the ooc/ic blurring and it being the Divine's decision on punishment. I think it's a step in the right direction, but there is no place for us to give our critique, and it seems almost like punishment is the whimsical decision of said Divine

They said critique is fine and to email Tecton if said Divine is getting overly butt-hurt over legit advice. It's how we say it, not the fact that people are complaining that is the issue that's being addressed by the rule. ( at least from what I read and the specific wording used )

But the rule isn't specific. It's a blank cheque, twofold.

One, it allows staffers who may not take constructive, legitimate criticism well to take such criticisms ICly and do whatever they will with them.

Secondly, it further obscures the line between what is part of the game and what is part of real life, exacerbating the problem of people taking too seriously that which happens in the game, as well as paving the way for more mixing of OOC and IC, which will only hurt the game.

Eiredhel

Namino: Me saying I'm being optimistic does not mean I'm saying people who disagree with me are being pessimistic. 

And I honestly did not take it to the full extent of: "One, it allows staffers who may not take constructive, legitimate criticism well to take such criticisms ICly and do whatever they will with them." 

Because I happy try to think that people will be adults, just like I hope people will word their critiques AS critiques and not personal attacks or attempts of defamation and/or slander. 

Sothantos: I honestly do not think that people are as OCC/IC as they claim to be. And like I said, if the divine really wanted to do it they would do it anyway and could have done it before the rule was implemented and probably have, habitually. And now people can call them out on it. It's a two way road and we're not getting the short end of the stick imo. 

Jumpy

This is a form of addressing it. If I were a Divine and those rants were about me, I wouldn't become more motivated to fix things. I'd lose motivation and I'd probably quit.

Happens quite a bit in fact. 

I suspect differently but I suppose that time will prove one of us wrong. People are naturally resilient and though extreme instances of criticism might contribute to some degree to a volunteer quitting, I would wager that there are other, more major causes in the mix, as well.

This is a form of addressing it. If I were a Divine and those rants were about me, I wouldn't become more motivated to fix things. I'd lose motivation and I'd probably quit.

Happens quite a bit in fact. 

I suspect differently but I suppose that time will prove one of us wrong. People are naturally resilient and though extreme instances of criticism might contribute to some degree to a volunteer quitting, I would wager that there are other, more major causes in the mix, as well.

So you are saying that going to a job, that you are doing for free, where people are constantly berating you day after day would not cause you to quit? 

I have had several volunteers over the years come and tell me they cannot take the forums anymore and are quitting. That does not take into account the people that just disappear. Heck, we have several volunteers that purposely do not read the forums because no matter what, 50% of the group hates them.

I am not saying that people do not quit because they hate me, or get sick of other gods, or the way things are done. Of course that happens. And we try to deal with that too.

The criticism on this thread has been fine, nothing wrong here. Debating the policy and not the people, that is fine. Just don't attack the people.

Amunet

I understand why the administration has decided to implement the new Rule #2. I truly do. As an organisational leader, I endure a ton of criticism, IC and OOC, that often leaves me wondering why I log in every day and put forth effort on behalf of people who have no respect for what I do to facilitate their enjoyment of the game. I can hardly imagine how much worse it must be for a God, especially an unpaid volunteer who must put in at least ten times the work that I do. You will probably never see me go Celani for that very reason.

That having been said, I would much rather that it was simply forbidden to criticise the Gods on the forums than to set a precedent that blurs the line between the forums and the game. I trust the Gods, for the most part, to exercise their new "freedom" judiciously, but I don't really trust the players not to use this rule as justification to, say, perpetuate OOC conflict within the game, or kick someone out of their organisation because of disrespect or "breach of secrecy" committed via the forums. While most of us have the intelligence and maturity to understand that we are not extended the same rights as the Gods, there are always going to be a few who will test the boundaries. The potential effects propagated by those who will toe the line are what really concern me.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that any group of people that lacks the maturity to keep their criticism constructive, and thus requires the threat of IC repercussions dangling over their head to keep themselves from acting like savages, will almost invariably lack the maturity to maintain the IC/OOC barrier. I think there are probably better ways that a higher standard of behaviour could be imposed - or, at the very least, that there are better ways to word Rule #2 that will not loan themselves to a rather dangerous ambiguity.

Amunet

That having been said, is there an option for a different theme somewhere around here? This white-on-black is a bit of an eyesore!

Jumpy

That having been said, is there an option for a different theme somewhere around here? This white-on-black is a bit of an eyesore!

Off topic, but not yet. Working with them for something like that.