Artefact Daggers

Xith

I imagine this was suggested at one point, but I thought I'd take a stab at the idea. PUN.

Delos dagger: Dmg:  69;  To-hit: 153;  Spd: 199 (421)

Artie daggers:

   Fool's dagger                  79     170     215     50 credits (464)

   Carnival dagger             84     178     224     120 credits (486)

   Silvestri's Revenge           89     186     233    240 credits (508)

Difference in total points between Delos and Level 3: 87

My best forged dagger:  74     206    189 (469)

-- I based them on the difference between Delos handaxes and artefact handaxes

Delos Handaxe: Dmg: 101;  To-hit: 180;  Spd: 189 (470)

Throwing axes:

   Sylvan Axe                  111     198     208     250 credits (517)

   Axe of the Hunt             116     207     217     600 credits (540)

   Axe of Gaian Fury           121     216     227    1200 credits (564)

Difference in total points between Delos and Level 3: 94

Things taken into consideration:

Axes are typically used by sentinels and return instantly, so only one is needed, whereas daggers do not return, and obviously at least three are needed for throwing (by jesters). Price was reduced accordingly.

Depending on their reset time, they could be more expensive. If they could be designed to reset in a minute or less, the costs could be as high as (80/180/360) or similar.

Glancing at the above chart, I'd probably invest in three of the level two daggers myself, knowing that 174+ To-hit is required to be any sort of consistent in juggle throws. But again depending on reset time, a few of the level ones might work for people who just need some speedy ones they'll never lose.

Regarding 'jab', I know Magi sometimes use envenomed daggers for retardation, so they may or may not purchase these speedy ones. But better than those nutty artie dirks that do big damage too.

Sidonia

Xith said:

   Fool's dagger                  79     170     215     50 credits (464)

   Carnival dagger             84     178     224     120 credits (486)

   Silvestri's Revenge           89     186     233    240 credits (508)

   Blackened rapier            83      182     209     350 credits
   Eagle's Scream              86      190     219     800 credits
   Soulpiercer                 90      198     228    1600 credits

Seems legit.

edit: To expand, I don't know why someone who doesn't use it for throwing should get something similar to a Soulpiercer for 240 credits. Also, being thrown, they're potentially 10% faster. It also irks me that they're faster than artie throwing axes (those are a separate issue though).

Sena

First, your proposed stat totals are about 10%/15%/20% above the average, they should be about 5%/10%/15% (as per Clementius). Although some older artefacts (such as the throwing axes) are 10/15/20.

Reducing the price because more than one is needed doesn't make sense to me. Swords aren't half price because knights need two of them, why should daggers be a third of the price because jesters need three? They should be similar in price to every other artefact weapon, and if that makes them too expensive for jesters to bother with, something else can be added. Returning, a very short reset time, a way of retrieving them faster or more easily, a jester ability that lets you pull a thrown weapon back to your inventory, etc.

I also don't like the jestery names for a weapon that really has nothing to do with jesters, but that's not really a big deal since they can just be customised.

Sidonia said:

It also irks me that they're faster than artie throwing axes (those are a separate issue though).

Daggers are faster than handaxes, it's the only advantage of daggers. I think the artefact stats should reflect the forged stats.

Also, if you just want artefact daggers without any special abilities, you can already get them, just like any other forged weapon. You just need to email artefacts@achaea.com for artefact weapons that aren't already made.

Sidonia

Sena said:

Daggers are faster than handaxes, it's the only advantage of daggers. I think the artefact stats should reflect the forged stats.

I know, I am just unhappy with artefact throwing axes in general.

Xith

Well, reviewing my full post and the delos stats. Dagger = faster. Axe = stronger/more accurate.

And clearly, dagger =/= rapier. Just like axe =/= rapier. And you can't dsl with daggers.

And against someone with 4899 health, a jugglethrown 78/174/185 dagger did 134 damage.

A jab with it did 566, about 3.1 balance.

Case pretty much closed there. I think axes do more than that just on a throw.

Xith

Sena said:

First, your proposed stat totals are about 10%/15%/20% above the average, they should be about 5%/10%/15% (as per Clementius). Although some older artefacts (such as the throwing axes) are 10/15/20.

Reducing the price because more than one is needed doesn't make sense to me. Swords aren't half price because knights need two of them, why should daggers be a third of the price because jesters need three? They should be similar in price to every other artefact weapon, and if that makes them too expensive for jesters to bother with, something else can be added. Returning, a very short reset time, a way of retrieving them faster or more easily, a jester ability that lets you pull a thrown weapon back to your inventory, etc.

I also don't like the jestery names for a weapon that really has nothing to do with jesters, but that's not really a big deal since they can just be customised.

a) The stats aren't based on what Clementius said. They're based on one juggling option versus the alternative.

b) throwing daggers aren't used for much except juggle throwing. The suggested stats are still near-inferior to handaxe stats. They're still suggestions, but pretty accurate ones. The price, as I said, could go up, but they'd certainly have to be cheaper than handaxes. Like I said, the to-hit on daggers is low enough that the speed bonus hardly makes them worth it sometimes

c) "nothing to do with jesters". I must've forgot about all those other classes that use daggers. Btw, axes have nothing to do with forestals by that logic. Everyone uses them. Either way, they're obviously placeholders. I just didn't want to name them Sylvan axe, etc. Excuse me for being creative.

Sidonia

Dagger =/= rapier so dagger should be 16% of the cost. K.

Also, I've seen occultists, apostates, magi use daggers, they're hardly a jester-specific thing.

Jacen

Monks going for a truelock will use daggers

Sena

Xith said:

a) The stats aren't based on what Clementius said. They're based on one juggling option versus the alternative.

But daggers aren't just for juggling, and artefact weapons all follow certain standards. They don't just have arbitrary stats that make them useful for whatever they're commonly used for, they have stats based on the actual forged stats. If those stats aren't good enough, that's an entirely separate issue.

Xith said:

b) throwing daggers aren't used for much except juggle throwing. The suggested stats are still near-inferior to handaxe stats. They're still suggestions, but pretty accurate ones. The price, as I said, could go up, but they'd certainly have to be cheaper than handaxes. Like I said, the to-hit on daggers is low enough that the speed bonus hardly makes them worth it sometimes

Daggers are used for things besides juggling far, far more than swords are used for things besides DSL (even counting bards using rapiers).

Xith said:

c) "nothing to do with jesters". I must've forgot about all those other classes that use daggers. Btw, axes have nothing to do with forestals by that logic. Everyone uses them. Either way, they're obviously placeholders. I just didn't want to name them Sylvan axe, etc. Excuse me for being creative.

As has been said, plenty of classes have a use for daggers. As for axes, sentinels have abilities solely for the use of axes, and are the only class with axe abilities, so there is a pretty significant link there. And I would still prefer if artefact axes were less obviously forestal. Again though, this is a very minor issue that has very little to do with the suggestion.

Xith

It all has little to do with the suggestion, because if the stats are any lower, they won't be worth buying, as they'd have no advantage over axes except the ability to stab, and of course no advantage over forged.

Think of them as a downgrade from artie dirks if that helps. And double or triple my suggested prices.

Sena

Xith said:

It all has little to do with the suggestion, because if the stats are any lower, they won't be worth buying, as they'd have no advantage over axes except the ability to stab, and of course no advantage over forged.

Making them the same as almost all artefact weapons.

Seldin

Good idea, but I don't necessarily agree with pricing/stats.

Perhaps if the staff and/or the ACC were to balance them appropriately, for stats and price, I'd say it's a great idea.

Yen

This is already possible.  You just have to ask.

From HELP ARTEFACT WEAPONS:

...

(Note: Any standard weapon that can be forged can be bought at one of three levels of enhancement. The ones below are just those we've created so far.)

Iocun

Artie club, here I come.

Penwize

I actually e-mailed them about artie daggers at one point, these were the stats I was told they would have(this was in 2011):

L1: 65/170/209
L2: 75/178/219
L3: 80/187/229

Sena

Yen said:

This is already possible.  You just have to ask.\

The suggestion isn't about ordinary artefact daggers though, the suggestion includes making them unique somehow (ridiculously cheap or very fast reset time) to be better for juggling.

Xith

For quick reset, the prices would be higher than what I listed.

So I guess the official question is: what will the dagger stats be and how much?

Aerek

Both of those questions have already been answered. By the administration, even.

Sidonia said:

 Blackened rapier            83      182     209     350 credits
 Eagle's Scream              86      190     219     800 credits
 Soulpiercer                    90      198     228    1600 credits

Penwize said:

I actually e-mailed them about artie daggers at one point, these were the stats I was told they would have(this was in 2011):

L1: 65/170/209
L2: 75/178/219
L3: 80/187/229

Edit: Oh, I'd forgotten that handaxes were cheaper. 250/600/1200 would be completely reasonable.

Shunsui

I emailed about the stats on them about a year or two ago and was given the same answer, I can't remember the prices they listed but I'd figure daggers would fall into the same price range as throwing axes, so 250/600/1200

I don't really think they'd be worth it for jesters unless they're made returning like javelins are, which would unbalance them completely since javelins return to a juggled state if thrown from juggle, and a returning juggled dagger is just insane. 

It's honestly not too difficult to forge 200+ speed daggers, and they're really cheap (like 1 obsidian each), allowing you to make/carry around a large amount of them for juggling purposes. Juggling boosts speed pretty absurdly so the extra speed from artefact versions would really only equate to about a .1 second balance difference (I tested with handaxes when I was a jester, a 210 speed axe was only .1 seconds slower than a 230 speed one), but when you're throwing at .8 or lower, that doesn't really seem necessary.

Sena

Aerek said:

Both of those questions have already been answered. By the administration, even.

Artefact weapon prices vary a lot, though, and I can't think of any pattern to it. I would guess daggers would be 250/600/1200, but some are weirdly priced (such as javelins), so it's hard to tell. And if they have a special ability (returning, fast reset time, etc.) that would make the price even less predictable.

With those stats, they would need to be somehow different to be worth using, since they have much lower damage and accuracy and negligibly higher speed than axes. I think returning (or active retrieval) would be worth the lower stats.

Edit: I was ninja'd. Also, weapons staying juggled after returning should be fixed anyways. I thought it would have been changed by now, since it was confirmed to be a bug years ago (and again a few months ago).

Veldrin

I was trying to buy a returning artefact dagger a while back, got told they weren't for sale because of the speed issue and a need to fix that first.

Aktillum

Returning daggers would be OP but if they weren't returning then there's absolutely zero point to arte daggers for Jesters. Adjusting the speed would be dumb because the returning javelins had 2.5s speed, returned to juggling, and were deemed the most god awful useless arte ever.

Now if you said something like 4th/5th/6th juggling slots..

Kyrra

Keep in mind that artefacts are resetting by default. You'll get them back eventually, just not right away.

Xith

I'm not saying "returning", just quick reset like 5 mins or less.

I guess the damage/speed problem with artie dirks would have to be addressed at the same time as making daggers available, due to jab. But they'd be useful for overall good stats, and the reason they have to be cheaper is that a jester WOULD need three or more. I carry between 20-50 daggers forged specifically for to-hit, but I realise that they are considerably slower than those that are forged just for speed, which is why the below stats would be nicer to have.

Penwize said:

I actually e-mailed them about artie daggers at one point, these were the stats I was told they would have(this was in 2011):

L1: 65/170/209
L2: 75/178/219
L3: 80/187/229

But while jesters might buy three level 2 daggers (360 total), people who can't use more than one dagger at once would buy a level 3 for 240.

But we might as well divide the costs by closer to an even third.

Xith said:

I imagine this was suggested at one point, but I thought I'd take a stab at the idea. PUN.

Delos dagger: Dmg:  69;  To-hit: 153;  Spd: 199 (421)

Artie daggers:

   Fool's dagger                65       170     209*     50 credits (464) 85cr

   Carnival dagger             75     178     219*     120 credits (486) 200cr

   Silvestri's Revenge           80     187     229*    240 credits (508) 400cr

Difference in total points between Delos and Level 3: 87

My best forged dagger:  74     206    189 (469)

See, unfortunately, these stats don't make sense because the speed on the axes is 208,217,227. So if there were artie daggers they would have to retain their speed advantage, hence my original values. But I guess since they aren't the same weapon there's probably a difference in the speed formula that makes them still faster. Just have to take admin's word on it.

But knowing the stats I couldn't buy a level 1 for throwing because the preferred accuracy is 174 or over. So buying three lvl 2's I'd spend 600, if they were raised anymore it'd be like buying another lvl3 blackjack, for which the reset time doesn't matter.

Kyrra

That's like saying I should get a discount because I want level 3 of everything I can dual wield plus a weapons rack ( new housing artifact that lets you display case weapons like in Skyrim ).

Just because a jester might use three of a dagger doesn't mean they should be any cheaper than the cost of one because some random magi apostate wants one to jab with.

I can understand a higher cost might be offputting because you need more than one, but most people pay double that for a pair of swords. I've owned level 3 broadswords and rapiers. Took a long time to save for those but they were worth it to me.

I dunno. Just seems silly to make a fuss over the price when you're buying something above average that lasts forever. They are artifacts.

Eld

Kyrra said:

Keep in mind that artefacts are resetting by default. You'll get them back eventually, just not right away.

Pretty sure when people are saying "returning" here, they mean like axes with the Returning ability in Woodlore, i.e. immediately resetting to wielded rather than having to pick them up after throwing.

Xith

Didn't mean to mislead anyone there, but I'm not actually talking about the price of official daggers for my sake.

I'm pointing it out because (big surprise) nobody is likely to buy them for 1200 when they can get an artie dirk that is much stronger/faster for another 300cr, at least for that purpose.

I'm scaling the price in respect to both artie axes and artie dirks, those being the functional competition. The thread is a request for officially stocked/listed artie daggers. I'm probably changing class in a couple months (if I'm still playing) so I won't be buying the daggers myself until I'm jester again.

Assassin's Dirk:    300 credits (8% faster)

Buckawn's Spine:    700 credits (15% faster)

Thoth's Fang:      1500 credits (23% faster)

Capice?

Sena

Xith said:
But I guess since they aren't the same weapon there's probably a difference in the speed formula that makes them still faster. Just have to take admin's word on it.

The weapon type doesn't matter, all weapons use the same speed/damage/accuracy formulae.

Xith

Ah, guess the problem stands.

Veldrin

Eld said:

Kyrra said:

Keep in mind that artefacts are resetting by default. You'll get them back eventually, just not right away.

Pretty sure when people are saying "returning" here, they mean like axes with the Returning ability in Woodlore, i.e. immediately resetting to wielded rather than having to pick them up after throwing.

Eh, I'd be happy with them just returning to the inventory after being thrown rather than rewielded

Kyrra

Well, the Yggdrasil quarterstaves immediately return to inventory after you use them to plant with. One of the nicer reasons I picked one up on my sylvan.