Bard: that one class

Akuji

I'm just hoping we get something more than a small buff, a pat on the head, and they forget about us until more people scream that we're over powered. ( I still don't know why people cry this)

All I can do is lay down Harmonics, Dirge and attempt to be annoying with Pesante, Envenoming, Aurelbless and some Voicecraft. But then everyone jumps out of the room and an arrow barrage is at me just before I can hit shield or arrow catch. Even if I'm dueling when Ayoxele decides that he wants to be annoying, I can't do anything due to him being able to afflict me faster than I can do anything to him. I realize that I'm still new to these Realms, but I want to be committed to the class and combat mechanics of it. >.<

I dunno, just me, the friendly newbie.

Zeon

That was your mistake. Trying to 1v1 or do anything other than lay harmonics and dirge.

Tecton

Averi said:

But I agree. I hope they have been paying attention to this thread as well. There were lots of amazing ideas in this thread. The ones on existing classleads were kind of underdeveloped.

We're investigating things a little more deeply than just the submitted classleads, so don't worry too much about the submitted reports.

Iocun

Although it would help if the people who are so adamant about getting some class "fixed" would actually craft up a classlead or two every now and then. I see plenty of people complain about certain mechanics, but never actually putting forth a reasonable idea through the proper channels.

Averi

@Iocun by the time I learn enough combat to be able to craftlead, it was already like february, 2013.  
I'll tries next time though.

Sidonia

I wasn't active when this round of classleads was open, so I absolve myself of responsibility.

Iocun

Yeah, I don't actually mind if people don't do it, as long as they don't go on complaining!

Velyse

Bard problems are much more fundamental than just underpowered abilities in a skillset, IMO. I don't even know what I would begin to classlead that wouldn't first need to be bugged or altered by a change to basic mechanics (such as voicecraft speed). 

Actually, there are a handful of abilities that could be tweaked on their own to be more functional (knuckleslap, high jump, handspring/backhandspring, maybe DFA?) that aren't bugged or broken by other superseding mechanics... But I didn't learn about them until a few days ago, when I started helping a BM with their stuff and saw how much "bard" crap they get that is just plain better.

Aerek

I don't think Bards are quite that broken. One or two key changes and they should be back up to par, they're just some pretty substantial changes rather than the tiny tweaks that other classes get/need. For example, this thread established a while back that if Bard jab/song speed was just raised a little, they'd probably become playable again. Or if Songbird became controllable instead of random. A song for another lock venom could even make them overpowered. The class just needs some specific, surgical buffs, not amputations or cybernetic implants.

Without meaning any offense, @Velyse, you can be pretty quick to label things "bugged," "broken," or "useless," while you're still learning a lot about combat, and have only been a Bard for a month or three. Not saying you don't have a good head on your shoulders, or that you don't have good ideas, just saying that I think you get overzealous and carried away with your assessments at times.

Xith

Zeon said:

Xith said:

Zeon said:

For clarification, it's not even because lay matters, you could delete it and no one would care. It's that all your posts are filled with self entitlement and a deep-rooted lack of understanding as to how mechanics work.

Shhhhhhhh. You have a deep-rooted lack of understanding of my understanding. And are also not god of this thread.

So it's not about the bard sacrificing their offense, it's the fact that they can stand there and do nothing but dwinnu and lay and it takes me 300% longer to make any headway without expending lots of bomb or tarot resources, plus bard slipperiness. Bard is very much the anti-jester.

Note that I didn't account for harmonic distractions either that can further disrupt fashion speed.

This is why your opinion should not be taken seriously in this thread.

Jester has arguably the best hindering in the game, thus jester can stop any momentum based class in it's tracks. Thus the best classes for fighting a jester are prep classes, (where getting hit with a hangedman, doesn't mean starting your offense all over again). Since bard is a momentum class (the weakest one by far, at this point in time), your assumption is unfounded.

Bards can't kill you, or even begin to gain momentum, without using voice balance to afflict. Since fashioning is faster than 3 seconds, a bard that keeps using their voice balance to put lay back up is just going to prolong the time it takes you to get fashions, while doing offensive whatsoever. 

You're approaching the argument from the other side, but sure. My point was also with dwinnu. There is no sustainable entangling tactic against bards, which is why bard is an anti-jester. I completely get that using your defensive voicecraft means you can't make offensive progress, and I would recommend faster swashrapier speed as the fix for that reason.

Nimble fashion seems about 1.7-1.8.

0 fsh blocked

0.1 lay

1.8 fsh blocked

3.1 lay

3.6 fsh blocked

5.4 fsh

6.1 lay

Looking at 1 successful fashion every 4 tries. If I illusion a fashion and make them reLay to throw off voicebal it's still 3 eq + 3.6 for the fashions after the illusion hits.

Lay is a neat class defense against two other classes, but because bard is bound to get fixed and be able to do more with its momentum, I want to reduce the standoffishness between our classes. Don't want everything I do to halt just because they decide to go full defense. All I'm recommending is that truefashion (or a double fashion) both strips and fashions.

Garao

As you're fashioning, it's reasonable to assume you're sparring or dueling them. That means they're there to stay. You're a prep class with arguably the most dangerous end-result of that prep-based offence. They're a momentum class that would be entirely sacrificing their momentum and chance at winning (Even post-fix Bard, which if provided a benefit to voicebalance, it would be safe to assume Lay would be adjusted. So don't worry about that) just to slow down the inevitable. As I said, it's like saying shield is a neat class defence against a Paladin or Runewarden. Not in terms of DSL's per shield ratio, but that you entirely halt your offence just to slow theirs down. I could understand your frustration if Jester was a momentum class. It's not!

Your point about bards being fixed and being able to do more with its momentum doesn't apply here either, considering they would be sacrificing their momentum to delay your fashioning speed. 

EDIT: saying that, I'm not against a truefashion proc stripping lay and providing the puppet/doll with a single fashion either.

Averi

I am faster now! :O

I totally didn't predict point something of a second to make this big of an impact. 

now i have a different question. How do you guys keep track of the staggered balances? I'm having trouble coordinating my jabs and auralblessing and voicecraft afflictions. How do you guys do it?  

Thanks in advance for help and suggestions and comments and stuffs.

Sidonia

I have voicecraft in a queue that fires when target is undeaf and I have voice balance... but I never use it because afflicting is too slow so I generally loldamage and just use aliased songs.

If deafness wasn't random it'd be a lot easier to use prefarar and track enemy deafness, and I'd probably forgo auralbless entirely.

Averi

@Sidonia thank you! I will try that. 

I have deafness highlighted along with rebounding but seriously it's like pink letters flashing ALL over my screen. It's hard to keep track of.

And yeah. Auralbless is throwing me off even more now. using prefarar is a much better idea. 

Aerek

How is using auralbless any different than perfarar? To my knowledge, deafness is random when it comes up, regardless of how you get rid of it.

Sidonia

Auralbless is 3s eq, which limits your jabbing speed on subsequent jabs.

edit: Since the bug affecting songblessed rapier speed was corrected, non-trans-weaponry bards now jab faster. If they were exactly 3s before, their rapiers are faster than auralbless EQ now.

Aerek

Oh. Duh. I literally forgot that you guys are faster now, despite it being 2 posts above.

Mizik

Were they actually made faster? I thought it just broke even for those with trans Weaponry. Basically, made it stop respecting Swashbuckling skill level rather than Weaponry to the same effect when jabbing.

For the sake of newbies.

Or was it the Chivalry/Weaponry effect with Swashbuckling?

Sena

Jab with songblessed rapiers was simply using weaponry skill for speed instead of swashbuckling, now it's fixed to use swashbuckling. So for someone with inept weaponry and trans swashbuckling, they were just made 1s faster. For someone who was already trans in both, there was no change.

Xith

Xith said:

Mishgul said:

 That sounds cool a harmonic that can turn one affliction into another. Give them stpuidity impatience and confusion and clumsiness. Harmonic changes a static set of afflictions to another every 5 minutes. 

If by that you mean each affliction correlates to another affliction that'd work. Otherwise the Bard would lose track of what the other person had. And 3rd person message on the harmonic's tick. That's kinda a neat idea.

Plus one, admins.

Plus one.

Look, guys. They applied our Bard idea to Occultists.

Maybe I should suggest that Sylvans be able to stick bombs easier.