It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
@Namino they opted in, they know the consequences
Don't like being killed? Don't kill people.
And lol re pirates handling their own contracts: if they could they would have. They hired because they all got stomped
Honestly logging in today just to have a crapload of fun before all the whining gets this removed.
This is what I'm reading: Oh no, someone lost 30 seconds worth of bashing exp! Oh no, Mizik got to have fun! Oh no, a character got IC consequences for IC actions (literally murdering people for personal gain). Oh no, Mizik got paid less than one twentieth of the daily free credits for hunting down and killing a player at the behest of pissed off pirates!
Everything I see there is either fine or awesome.
Logging in is opting in...you dummies...just don't log in if you don't want to get roflstomped by marks after every bashing run....duh...
"30 seconds of bashing" for a dragon.
Mysia is for like level 60~70. That's 12% of a level almost.
I feel like this idea could work, if there were more/better options for non-village exterminations. Like, if bashing Mysia/other villages gave you slightly boosted gold drops/slightly boosted xp, it would be like an Annwyn-lite. You could then tie the system in to city diplomacy- bash Caer Witrin and risk the wrath of the zerg. I think that's probably what they're setting up for, too, with some of the other language in that announce.
I just also don't think there's enough non-sentient bashing to be viable for all levels? Like when you're hunting up towards dragon, very few places are just 'kill stupid animals/monsters'. And those few places that do exist are going to be hunted out way more often. I definitely think we need some slight adjustments to village bashing, and a content drop of actual mindless monsters at all levels, including one or two more places that drop dragon talismans so I can quit murder-hobo'ing Sirocco.
I'll admit it WOULD be super nice to be able to have RP hunting restrictions and not get absolutely reamed during Great Hunts etc.
I wonder if any groups that have FEELINGS will set up with contracts. The Minia pixies have suffered long enough!
Also, sounds like will be a sizable faucet just opened up so time to empty the credit market before the price skyrockets.
Changes have been live in less than 24 hours. I do see children throwing a tantrum on the internet and being wildly disrespectful to admin. While that was going on adults had a 30s discussion and placed limits on the amount of contracts that could go out in X time, then pulled the posted excess contracts in order to take a step in the right direction. Don't forget how responsive this team is. Lay out your points in problem/solution format so that they're easy to read and address - bullets help. And like any other game, if you're not having fun with it at the moment, put it down and play something else while the kinks get sorted.
One of the classic retention methods...go play a better game while we figure ourselves out.
@Mizik not everyone has privileged access to the developers. The official statement regarding the new mechanics was "we're not telling you how it works". How is it reasonable to articulate problems and suggest solutions when people don't even know the underlying mechanics?
That's been the case for years though. Privileged few who get to test all the new classes and content out, then stomp the shit out of people because they already know all the lines, prio's and tricks of the new class.
I like this change, although some may point to Sobby being a Mark and expect that, I do have strong reservations that bashing / hunting is pretty much the only way to quickly and consistently level your character and that not everybody fights, in fact Achaea has made great waves in allowing multiple areas of Roleplay outside of PK. So for it to be a "We won't tell you what gives Contracts out in this system" is really not very helpful, even if it does add an element of mystique to it.
@Calira I don't accept the lack there of being an excuse to hurl insults and add toxicity.
@Namino (yes we're trying to get the reply button fixed):
Performing quests that have a significant impact on an area can cause them to get mad at you where killing them usually wouldn't. Mysia's quest was an oversight, as the difficulty was incorrectly flagged - this has been resolved.
As for pirates hiring: the pirates of Mysia are about a thousand times less murderous than any average Achaean adventurer who employs either mark. Food for thought. Functionally being state actors does not make the average Achaean's actions any less morally objectionable when viewed through a real world lens (or an objectional IC lens for that matter). They won't hire anymore, but thematically I'm not sure I agree them doing so is problematic.
Your post wasn't cranky. It was rude and not really conducive to constructive discussion. We're happy to elaborate/go back and forth/refine, but some civility would be cool and definitely makes the dialogue smoother.
A little off topic but worth a response - you're correct here. Certain people do get advanced access to new classes to test etc, which does give them a little bit of an edge on release (though I'd note that often this benefits the masses as well, since those people are often quick to help which flattens the learning curve a lot). I know some people think that's unfair, but its an unfairness I think has much more benefits than downsides in both the short and the longterm. The advantage quickly levels out and people receive the classes in a much saner state, since the people who tend to test these are very good at telling me where there are issues. I will note however anyone can apply to being a tester, and this is separate to being in the ACC (though there is some natural overlap).
@Mizik that's great, but not relevant to what I posted.
Every time I come to this cursed place I regret it, but since people seem to want to slop my death out as a discussion point, I'm gonna wade in.
I have 0 issues with being killed for pirate murder, which has now happened twice. I hunt that place religiously. They have hated Harenae for nearly 10 years straight, and the feelings are mutual. IMO it's fair that they as an organization would seek vengeance for literally YEARS of me murdering them over and over. Those are, in theory, people with lives and business and relations and personality and I sweep through and execute them. Good on them for getting some vengeance.
I will yell til the end of time that I'm here for RP first and foremost. Everyone playing the game is there for different things, so go for what you love. Mizik dismantled Harenae handily. Why would I whine about my poor experience loss, something it seems nobody cares about unless they want an excuse to complain? Instead, hey look more reasons for RP!
Harenae wrote a poem to Mizik for killing her. Deaths are very inspirational.
Harenae returned to Mysia almost immediately to murder them for daring to attack her.
She died AGAIN from this and now considers herself in a blood feud with Mysia and has a new trait to her personality.
She has a reason to study some additional combat training, if she wants to live longer when things turn violent again.
She had some nice caretaking interactions post-deaths with her citymates.
It's nice to die to something other than horsemilk!
If you want to complain about a change, use someone other than me as an example. I can speak for myself. Or better yet, if you're horrified Mysia would dare hire on a little precious baby non-combatant like Harenae, join her in murdering pirates until they can no longer afford to hire!
In 1996, when Matt Mihaly decided to produce Achaea, he made a series of conscious, willful design decisions regarding this game.
One of those decisions was that the way that players would advance their characters was, largely, through the wanton application of violence, particularly on the denizens of the game. That 'players are far more violent than Mysian pirates' isn't some reflection on the players. It's a reflection on the game. This game encourages, informs, and asks players to interact with the world they are in with violence, because that is the game it is. Achaea is a hack and slash MUD wrapped up in a vague roleplay shell.
If players are treating NPCs like bags of experience to be popped, it's because the fundamental way that Achaea is designed asks them to treat denizens like bags of experience to be popped. Players are interacting with the game world in exactly the way the game was designed to be interacted with, and to put your hands on your hips and go "why are players genociding our NPCs, how violent!" is extremely disingenuous. You know why -- because the game has told them every step of the way for twenty years that that's what NPCs are -- experience bags. Acting like this is some weird emergent player-driven behavior is ridiculous -- people are playing the game as they've been told to play it by the game itself.
If you want players to interact less hostilely to NPCs and treat them as a living breathing part of the world, the thing you have to change is the valid ways to players to achieve advancement outside of murder. Slapping a PvP wrapper around the only actual meaningful way to experience PvE content in Achaea is just punishing people for doing what they've been informed they should be doing. That goes doubly so for quests, which already offer utterly paltry amounts of experience and gold when compared to wanton murder. Having to blindly roll the dice on getting headshot by Mizik as soon as you complete one just further deteriorates the impetus to quest, especially because for some bizarre reason, it's being decided it should be some secret what quests are going to get you contracted. Jumping into Annwyn gives you a warning that you can be killed and you should leave. Every single instance of wandering into this system should also ping the player and warn them off, at the very least.
Finally, as a non sequitur, if you felt disrespected, the feeling is very much mutual. I have watched, with an increasingly curled upper lip, an administrative culture develop around this game that is less and less respectful towards its playerbase, ranging from a disrespect towards our wallets (we cannot increase the bang for the buck, an utterly rampant spread of gambling promotions, so forth), to a disrespect towards our fundamental dignity (a refusal to address sexual harassment in Achaea because we've given you all the tools to perfectly shut your eyes and pretend it isn't happening!), to just simply not respectful of our time. To be performatively waving your hands around, asking why adventurers are so bloodthirsty towards denizens when it's because you made a game that relentlessly asks them to be bloodthirsty and gives them no other options, is just another castigation of everyone's intelligence as far as I'm concerned. Let alone slapping people with PvP consequences for doing precisely what the game itself is demanding of them.
May I humbly suggest that due to the AR3 interaction, the command to demote Army members be added to the game? Currently you can Promote but there is no way to demote either yourself or as minister, any member of the army, without them resigning and starting back at AR1 (which is horrible RP for Targossas and Mhaldor at least, if not outright illegal). Not as far as I can tell from the War Ministry and related help files, at least.
Since people's current rank predates this rule, I think it's only fair - and beyond this point, I also think it's simply needed to be able to demote people for any other reason too, like poor performance, or stepping down from leadership roles in general, or abuse/failure to properly execute the powers of AR3+.
Regardless of how we all feel about the denizen hiring stuff, can we all just agree that @Harenae's take on their death for hunting in Mysia is heckin' awesome?
I agree with @Moroa , and honestly its something a good portion of the playerbase should really try and embody in this game.
I never remembered Achaea being such a wallowing pit of petulant children as it is today, the consistent crusades against the administration and gaslighting other players is atrocious.
If I saw the majority of the people actually contributing to, and playing the game as much as they crusade on the forums and discord, perhaps their complaints about the population lowering would be alleviated.
A few things to unpack here:
1. Of course players should kill npcs for xp. This is by design - I'm not sure where you got from my response this shouldn't be the case. If you can elaborate I'm happy to go into that further.
2. I did not feel disrespected - I have a pretty thick skin as things go. I said your post was impolite, which is a poor basis for discourse. Do you disagree?
3. I and the admin team certainly don't seek to disrespect our players. Sometimes there will be disagreement/frustration with decisions, but the goal is always to improve the experience. If you're particularly frustrated with a decision, you're always welcome to message or email me and we can chat about it. We might still come out disagreeing, but we'll probably understand each other's stances a little better.
4. I can't really comment on sexual harassment cases. I will say we do ban people for this though, we just don't advertise it when it happens.
I'm not sure how else to say this...there are people who do not want to engage AT ALL with PK. So please spell out how they can do that successfully (who is okay to hunt and who is not okay to hunt)...or else just break the news and tell us to quit.
I feel like this conversation has highlighted a need for a solution that Lusternia implemented long ago.
Instead of only have PVP, PVE, and questing as options for character advancement regarding level, they added in influence. This is a non-aggressive form of leveling your character which also enabled them to create a world that does actually feel alive, far more than Achaea. For context, it broke down to several different ways you could influence denizens, you could try to sway them to like you more (decreasing village hate), to give you things (get gold), and a few other options.
This also enabled village revolts, which was that a village would align itself with organizations, and give them benefits based on what that village produces to help with the trade ministry. Once in awhile, villages would revolt, and cities would need to go influence them towards their city again, and this created an interesting mix of PVP and PVE, with world impacting consequences.
By comparison, Achaea seems flat and static, there are not meaningful ways to interact with denizens beyond kill them or not, other than the occasional bit of RP that requires admin availability and interest.
In Lusternia, CTF’s were biweekly at set times, village revolts would happen every few weeks at random times, Islands would also be available to capture for your organization every few weeks through aethercrafting, I feel like what Achaea misses the mark in feeling dangerous or alive is in how static its forms of conflict are. Ultimately, the conflict in Achaea is stale because there are not true objectives to achieve beyond tanking, and most of the time that just results in an unused area of a city being unavailable for a couple of months, it doesn’t feel real or threatening.
I’m not suggesting that Achaea needs to become Lusternia, and I do like these changes (other than concerns that the oceans change is actually going to discourage combat rather than encourage it, though I do like the change and felt oceans being treacherous always felt weird, I just think you shouldn’t be able to hire for it, because that’s what is going to discourage people)
Compared to Lusternia, achaea actually does quite a few things a lot better like balancing 1v1 and group combat, the issue is just that balance is wasted because there are so few meaningful forms of conflict.
The two biggest keys for those who don't want to PK at all would be to, one, vacate their city during a raid, which is crummy but makes sense. Why are you standing around on a guard stack when there are hostile invaders trying to blow up part of your city? And two, knowing which denizens and areas are going to hire on people and under what circumstances. Cities have already compiled some pretty comprehensive hunting guides, so developing high profile guides too shouldn't be too unexpected.
As a 90% non-combatant I feel like it's still very possible to avoid pk entirely if you want, but the cities will have to step up and help them out a bit to make sure they can meet that goal.
Alternatively, demolish the hordes of creatures that won't trigger a retribution contract in exactly two weeks time when everybody has thoroughly plumbed the depths of this system and most people know what to habitually avoid if they still insist on not engaging with the game world in the slightest.
So, I almost never comment on any changes that are made to Achaea, because for the most part they don't change how I play the game. I am one of the very few people in the game that is a non-combatant. I do not opt-in to combat of any sort, usually not even verbally, because it quite literally gives me a panic attack out of the game. But lately, every time a change to combat (or theft) has come about, there has been an overarching theme that goes with it "the world is not supposed to be safe". I'm sorry, but no. Parts of the world absolutely are not supposed to be safe, and if you opt-in to those parts you should know that your risking your character. But I do not opt-in, I will never opt-in, and now I am being told that I have no choice, because that is the way its going to be.
Achaea is a Role-Playing game. It says so right in the description on the games front page. It does not describe it as a game where your character is going to be at constant risk of being killed because they stepped into the wrong location at the wrong time, or because a group decided to mass attack everyone standing in an area, regardless of their status in the army or not, or because they were raiding and swept up defenders and bystanders alike and rather than give anyone time to sort themselves out and let the non-combatants get out of the area mindlessly attacked everyone, killing the people that did not defend themselves.
I hear a lot, in character and out, that my recourse for this is to either log out, sit on a ship, hop in a journal, or otherwise isolate myself from my RP experience in the game because its too much effort to take a moment to consider, "oh, that person isn't in the army, maybe we don't try to kill them?" Or I get told "oh, just learn a little combat, you'll be fine once you learn a little." No. I won't. I will be stuck dealing with the effects of a panic attack for the next however long depending on the severity of the attack. For those who have never felt the effects of a panic attack, please do not tell me that its not a big deal, which I have also heard a number of times, or that perhaps Achaea is not the game for me, because I have a lot of fun in Achaea.
I rather enjoyed @Synthus's idea of the Pacification collar that he suggested a couple pages back. I know most people probably don't, but I think it would be helpful for those of us who are non-combatants to know that there is actually a consequence in place for people who don't take the few seconds to make sure that they are only going have people who opt-in to combat. At this point though, I'm going to leave it there because this is about as much confrontation as I can handle.
Fair enough! You'll now be warned when you're creeping close to a contract being filed. Its an IC message, but should be pretty obvious and indicate that if you don't want a contract to get put out, you might not want to do whatever you just did again.
@Makarios - may I suggest something along the lines of an IC way to bribe / escape these contracts without PVP, for the small subset of people who fervently wish to avoid any and all instances of PVP interaction?
Personally I absolutely love this change, and I think it solves a bunch of problems all in one fell swoop, but I definitely empathize with people who simply want nothing to do with PVP, even if they signed up to play a PVP game and that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Y'know, I've tried to avoid talking about this mostly publicly, but I think perspective might add a little levity.
In January of 2020, I had one of the worse cases of flu I'd ever had in my life. I could not kick it for the better part of a month, lost my voice for a three day period, ran a severe fever for several days, and felt absolutely horrendous the entire time. In may of that year, I had to go to the doctor because I couldn't even manage to walk across the street anymore without feeling like I ran a 5K. The short version of everything we found out wrong with me: moderate anteroseptal myocardial ischemia, nerve damage, acute hypertension II, an undiagnosed anxiety disorder, and another undiagnosed mental illness.
(For the record, I was also exposed to covid, but we do not know if this instance of illness was covid related or if I was exposed later)
When I say, "I can't PvP anymore", it's not "I don't want to PvP anymore" - I was actually making progress, learning combat, and generally enjoying building my system before I got sick. Since I've returned, I've tried to dip into PvP a handful of times, and each time I become physically ill with it. It's not the death aspect either, @Adrik can attest, he watched Synthus kill himself in the name of science™, and that I handled absolutely fine. It is the adrenaline and subsequent chest pounding, nausea, vertigo, and feeling like every nerve in my body is on fire that I can't handle. Hell, the first Divine interaction I had, I was sitting at my desk legitimately wondering if I was going to pass out because I could feel my heart in my throat and started feeling that "everything is getting fuzzy and drawing through a straw" feeling.
Traditionally, PvP has been opt-in, this has been fine! I am sad I don't get to participate anymore, but thems the breaks. Occasionally it's bled over into cases where people that don't opt-in get targeted ( non-combatants getting attacked, theft, etc ), and to me that's not fine. Yes, you can make the argument of "Well, they can talk it out or hire in game," but as someone that now has a very new definition for the term "nerve-wracking", you are putting a lot on the shoulders of someone that's already in a very rough state.
Now, however, PvE actions are garnering PvP consequences. We aren't talking about actions which are inherently PvP oriented like defiling a shrine or exterminating a forest, we are talking about hunting. We aren't talking about suddenly a pirate bounty hunter strides out to attack you while you're hunting in the Mhojave or Quartz Peak, we're talking about a PvP-focused player hunting down someone for PvE actions. We are talking about a player actively attacking another player who may not engage in PvP because they don't have a choice in the matter.
As has been stated by others, the hunting areas for non-sentient, non-hiring denizens is skim at best, and would require a massive boost to become a viable route to dragon, or hell, even Logosian for some.
I'm sorry if wanting to keep PvP and PvE separate isn't considered constructive. For me it's a case that if PvP keeps bleeding over into the game or if Achaea becomes a truly open PvP, then I have to step away. I don't want to, I have loved the interactions I've had so far since my gameplay has been focused on RP and more creative avenues. I've had a wonderful time with every discussion and silly little interaction I've had, and I'm sorry if not wanting to lose that comes off as childish or petulant.
@Makarios the idea that adventurers are bloodthirsty nightmares has good potential, but it feels more like a justification than something that's reflected in-game. If that's to be the nature of player characters, I really hope to see it expanded upon going forward. Higher-level adventurers could be met by most NPCs with suspicion by default, while those in Dragonform should inspire open terror. Village feelings could never decay. Phileo could face some sort of retribution for placing credit bounties on the meanest NPCs in the game. There's a lot more here that could be done to make the NPCs seem like they care about being murdered.
I agree we can do more here, though its worth noting my comment here was mostly a relative comparrison - the pirates being criminals and hiring marks isn't suspect because their criminal behaviour is something adventurers partake in on a regular basis too, and usually to significantly higher degrees. Personally quite like a hardcore denizen bounty thing conceptually, maybe we'll talk about that (though there is some inevitable overlap with renown, since a lot of those denizens generate credits in that form already).