Elyons thread of serious concequences!

Elyon

Hi folks. After taking in your last threads about concequences and the like, I do think that there were at least some valid concerns about the avoidance of concequences so, without further ado, I'll share my thoughts and suggestions on the matter.

Firstly, on the subject of guards, reverse the change to guard health, perhaps even cut guard health further and instead put a 2 level infamy addition to each guard killed. Forces griefy guardbashers into being pkable and not able to hide whilst making it possible if necessary to actually go and attack guards rather than having them as some god powered unstoppable force.

Higher infamy for those involved in raids. Been near a tank going off? You should be infamous! Killed someone in another city? (Or anywhere else that isn't your city for that matter), you've just opted in (see I'm using your phrasings) to being pkable!

AoE attacks can hit innocent parties with no real retribution if the player doing the killing is infamous or mark. Higher infamy costs for kills with these? If the player killed is not infamous or a thief. (So if you happen to holobomb a cyrenian joust party or radiation an accidental group of folks you get more infamy for it)

Passive stuff like gravehands, vines, room hinders etc giving more infamy when used. If your gravehands are hitting innocent people you should be getting more infamous from it. If your vines lash out, your bearstance does whatever or your occultist entities attack someone you should be getting infamy. Right now there doesn't seem any real consequence to using them, so they are used without thought and used continuously in places where they might hit non related people . Also make it possible to locate folks who use gravehands. Like probe gravehands or something so you can hire about it or go kill them or something

Seafarers!

Remove the silly "actions on the sea cannot translate to land" distinction. Piracy has gone on for long enough that they should be able to face consequences for their actions. Also, if someone captures loot from a ship it should tag them as thieves a la actual thieves. Maybe add something for pirates.

But Elyon, what about the people who just hide on boats after raiding? Well I thought of that too! Make bribing available to all players and add some way of being able to find infamous players docked at harbour, thus preventing boats being used to evade consequences. For deckhand maybe halve the cost of bribe or something?

Another such idea that may not go down well but would certainly introduce an element of consequence for your actions would be to allow sentient NPC groups to hire marks on you. You exterminate qurnok? Qurnok hires on you etc. Would make people have to play the game in a matter where denizens aren't solely there to be mowed down for experience constantly and would generate the meaningful conflict that we all know and love from being jumped randomly by some quisalis fellow. ((Like seriously why is this not a mechanic anyway? You exterminate the den of the quisalis and they don't think to just send an assassin after you))

Similarly I'd request a slightly, (but not totally) lessened infamy cost for stealing from the already infamous, since these people have already clearly chosen to have "opted in" to the pvp side of the game

I welcome your ideas and thoughts and suggestions!

Treyal

you're better at theft than you are at game design, i'll give you that

Elyon

Feel free to tell me your disagreements

Accipiter

Wow, you really want to stop people participating in anything don't you?

Elyon

I'm sorry, I would think this would actually encourage more participation in the game and add more meaningful consequences behind player actions, which we clearly had plenty of support for earlier. Do you feel that guard bashers are a beneficial addition to the game? Or people who kill indescriminately? Or is it that his out think that boats should be the only acceptable form of consequences avoidance ?

Taryius

Hate to break it you, but 90% of your suggestions are how the game already works? If you want to suggest increasing infamy generation you can do so in a lot fewer words, and would be something I'm, personally, on board with.

Also NPC contracts sound awesome. Quisalis, Ivory Tower, Moghedu (maybe), Sirocco. Lots of places where you could implement that.

Outside that, bring back old-infamy being open PK to everyone. I want to watch the world burn (and maybe throw a torch onto the pyre while doing so)

Elyon

@Taryius yeah, that was kinda how the theft thread went too in regards to -thats already how it works but yes. Increases

Open pk would be preferable to infamy pk but wont happen since 60 percent of players (from my perspective) aren't willing to do anything meaningful or conflict related and will shy away from anything not in their general purview of what they do.

Guess since my horse is outta the race I'd be totally ok with infamous being open pk to everyone. Main thing I don't want to see is only 2 people showing up on Jovan after 20 people just attended a raid or something

Increased infamy generation for certain actions (some of which I've listed)

(most pvp stuff is pretty fine as it is IMO)

Just want to see increased uh... "Opting in" from those who wish to do so.

And the boat stuff is entirely not how the game currently works , at all.

Accipiter

People don't like being infamous. When they get to be infamous they hide in cities. Sure there are a bunch of avid PKers who don't mind it but in general people don't mind being open to the gank squad but in general people want to not be infamous.

Raiding is hard enough to get going in most cities as is and you want to make it worse for the low to midbies who haven't fully learnt to fight and the combat hesitant to participate. And all they really have to worry about is dying once to a bounty. Talk to any of the bounty hunters in cities who take out the bounties on people and you will find countless anecdotes of their target sitting in their city for weeks until the bounty expires.

The same is true for sailing. Most are scared of going onto the seas at all in case they get killed once and now you want to make them infamous to boot.

The only good idea is making bribe available to everyone, and to be honest until like a month ago I assumed it was.

Taryius

Remove the silly "actions on the sea cannot translate to land" distinction. Piracy has gone on for long enough that they should be able to face consequences for their actions. Also, if someone captures loot from a ship it should tag them as thieves a la actual thieves. Maybe add something for pirates.

Actions on the sea can definitely translate to consequences on land, as you can find it with several organizations charges and policies on piracy and naval warfare, or the fact that ships are part of the war system - what they can't translate into is land-based PK. This is similar to other forms of conflict such as mining, where you keep your retaliation in the same system.

Plundering ships does not tag someone as an active thief or pirate, this is true.

But Elyon, what about the people who just hide on boats after raiding? Well I thought of that too! Make bribing available to all players and add some way of being able to find infamous players docked at harbour, thus preventing boats being used to evade consequences. For deckhand maybe halve the cost of bribe or something?

Bribing is available to all players, anyone can spec deckhand for it. There are no restrictions on who can and cannot learn the skill.

There is way to find people docked on ships, you can see people on ships with veils. You can see ships in harbours, you can see people on other ships with seafaring.

So yeah, a piracy system would be pretty cool, its one thats been brought up and discussed a lot in the past. A few people had the really cool idea of tagging a piracy system to the boats specifically (having contracts on those boats too). The idea of having an infamous vessel sailing about is pretty sweet. But yeah 75% of the suggestions have already had solutions implemented into the game in some format.

Elyon

People don't like being infamous. When they get to be infamous they hide in cities. Sure there are a bunch of avid PKers who don't mind it but in general people don't mind being open to the gank squad but in general people want to not be infamous.

---- they become infamous via actions against other players. It's the consequences of their actions. Besides, if they don't want to face these then they can just urn away and get away Scot free

Raiding is hard enough to get going in most cities as is and you want to make it worse for the low to midbies who haven't fully learnt to fight and the combat hesitant to participate. And all they really have to worry about is dying once to a bounty. Talk to any of the bounty hunters in cities who take out the bounties on people and you will find countless anecdotes of their target sitting in their city for weeks until the bounty expires

--raiding is a part of the game that people don't opt into. Whilst I am not going to go so far as to say "remove raiding", I do think that those going out of their way to be aggressive should be treated in the same way as others doing so.

The same is true for sailing. Most are scared of going onto the seas at all in case they get killed once and now you want to make them infamous to boot

--absolutely not. I want to make the artanises of the world making people scared of going into the seas to be infamous, not your average Joe blow cyrenians. Just the aggressive pirate types

The only good idea is making bribe available to everyone, and to be honest until like a month ago I assumed it was.

--Ok this bit doesn't surprise me

Elyon

Actions on the sea can definitely translate to consequences on land, as you can found it with several organizations charges and policies on piracy and naval warfare, or the fact that ships are part of the war system - what they can't translate into is land-based PK. This is similar to other forms of conflict such as mining, where you keep your retaliation in the same system.

--ok yeah, I say remove the "keep it within the same system" since it's too easy to dodge consequences by just not being part of that system for some time. Why should a pirate, for example, be able to attack your ship and then dock never to return? Why should their actions not face consequences anywhere? Why not be able to hire a mark? If you're doing aggressive actions you should be able to be at least hired on for it

Plundering ships does not tag someone as an active thief or pirate, this is true.

-- yup. Certain people go around sinking ships all day then bitch when someone attacks them for it. Strikes me as silly.

But Elyon, what about the people who just hide on boats after raiding? Well I thought of that too! Make bribing available to all players and add some way of being able to find infamous players docked at harbour, thus preventing boats being used to evade consequences. For deckhand maybe halve the cost of bribe or something?

Bribing is available to all players, anyone can spec deckhand for it. There are no restrictions on who can and cannot learn the skill.

--ok but that screws with people who have different specs. Its the same argument as "why can only blademaster use hamstring" only it places a mechanic that should be a tool used to enact vengeance and puts it only in the hands of people who take that skill. You shouldn't need seafaring at all to be able to take an infamous person off a ship, for example .

There is way to find people docked on ships, you can see people on ships with veils. You can see ships in harbours, you can see people on other ships with seafaring.

-yes but this is unclear and requires a 2500 credit artefact. Finding infamous folks boats shouldnt cost $700 USD, it should be available to anyone.

So yeah, a piracy system would be pretty cool, its one thats been brought up and discussed a lot in the past. A few people had the really cool idea of tagging a piracy system to the boats specifically (having contracts on those boats too). The idea of having an infamous vessel sailing about is pretty sweet. But yeah 75% of the suggestions have already had solutions implemented into the game in some format

Yeah boat contracts would be neat

Elyon

@Treyal looks like your comment aged like fine milk

Atalkez

Ophal and Lafrin should hunt Infamous people too. How many times are they going to PK Z and Maim before they get bored?

Saonji

Remove the silly "actions on the sea cannot translate to land" distinction.

I understand completely why this is a thing, to try and turn the sea into a "treacherous plane" akin to Nish or Annwyn. I don't like it, but I understand why they did it: to make pirates be dealt with by people who sail, rather than dealt with "general pkers" like everything else. Unfortunately it's kind of not worked out, with how many people dislike sailing for a variety of reasons, or at the very least, dislike ship combat. It works in Annwyn for obvious reasons.

Another such idea that may not go down well but would certainly introduce an element of consequence for your actions would be to allow sentient NPC groups to hire marks on you.

This is one of those ideas that looks good on paper, but actually mechanically would be very shit. Probably 90% of the areas worth a damn to hunt, are "sentient" NPCs. Given how necessary hunting is in this game, you'd just have people quitting en masse if you did this. Maybe make it hire NPC marks (not roided up supermobs like Lafrin or Ophal), rather than players, could introduce some fun things.

Passive stuff like gravehands, vines, room hinders etc giving more infamy when used. If your gravehands are hitting innocent people you should be getting more infamous from it.

This kinda seems either tongue-in-cheek, or just not understanding how these things work. Gravehands in particular hit anyone who isn't Mhaldorian (does hit Mhaldorians enemied by the person as well, though). Things like this or piety doesn't really do anything debilitating; the Mhaldorian can hardly predict if some random goes waltzing through Quartz Peak and hits their gravehands after they ganked someone who deserved it. As it stands, everything else you listed only hits personal enemies. So it's hardly "innocent people" and Occultist entities DO build infamy if they attack people.

Personally I'm not against infamy from things like guard bashing being increased even more, given that nobody likes it. Generally even the ones doing it, don't like it... It would be nice to have death more meaningful, though. In particular against those with high infamy, to actually balance consequence with action.

Elyon

I understand completely why this is a thing, to try and turn the sea into a "treacherous plane" akin to Nish or Annwyn. I don't like it, but I understand why they did it: to make pirates be dealt with by people who sail, rather than dealt with "general pkers" like everything else. Unfortunately it's kind of not worked out, with how many people dislike sailing for a variety of reasons, or at the very least, dislike ship combat. It works in Annwyn for obvious reasons.

-yup my suggestion would fix it. Ship combat seems too heavily dependent on numbers and wealth so something to give these people a kicking would be nice.

Another such idea that may not go down well but would certainly introduce an element of consequence for your actions would be to allow sentient NPC groups to hire marks on you.

This is one of those ideas that looks good on paper, but actually mechanically would be very shit. Probably 90% of the areas worth a damn to hunt, are "sentient" NPCs. Given how necessary hunting is in this game, you'd just have people quitting en masse if you did this. Maybe make it hire NPC marks (not roided up supermobs like Lafrin or Ophal), rather than players, could introduce some fun things.

--yeah that'd suffice too. Just right now the main sorta belief is that denizens are just there to be harvested and everyone's character is a murderhobo

Passive stuff like gravehands, vines, room hinders etc giving more infamy when used. If your gravehands are hitting innocent people you should be getting more infamous from it.

This kinda seems either tongue-in-cheek, or just not understanding how these things work. Gravehands in particular hit anyone who isn't Mhaldorian. And it does nothing debilitating; the Mhaldorian can hardly predict if some random goes waltzing through Quartz Peak and hits their gravehands after they ganked someone who deserved it. As it stands, everything else you listed only hits personal enemies. So it's hardly "innocent person" and Occultist entities DO build infamy if they attack people.

Mhaldorian in this case should obviously be more careful about where they drop gravehands, then, instead of leaving it on clouds to hit everyone. (Also why is this possible)

My point is that this is indeed an aggressive action and it should be treated as such. Same as your bear stance or tumbleweeds or whatever . Same as if a novice steps on my voyria caltrop and dies from it.

Personally I'm not against infamy from things like guard bashing being increased even more, given that nobody likes it. Generally even the ones doing it, don't like it... It would be nice to have death more meaningful, though. In particular against those with high infamy, to actually balance consequence with action.

I'd like to see easier to kill guards but with harsher personal infamy for it since it's basically just a grief tactic and guards are ridic strong

Saonji

I think guards should be hard to kill, simply because of why they exist. Making them easier doesn't really do anything, except make them more likely to be killed en masse whenever the defending city chooses not to engage. (such as when they WERE easier to kill) - Guards already can be killed fairly easily if the group knows what they're doing (which is an argument you've already used yourself, for keeping something the way it is).

Making things affect your infamy more or whatever, functionally does nothing as it currently stands without first addressing the consequence of building higher and higher infamy.

Adrik

Great! I have a ton of ideas.

Being able to bribe people off of ships is just 2 damn expensive. Moreover, with the proliferation of Island Wings being generated into the game, it's very safe to just set your ship return to some outer island and go there whenever you need to (since most of the general populace won't go there). And then just disembark and Duanatharic from a friggin OUTER ISLAND as you please.

Solution 1: Make bribing cheaper.

Solution 2: Make Island Wings not work from outer Islands/ships. I have no idea why this is even a thing.

Solution 3: Both.

"People who pirate on ships should be tagged as thieves on land."

People who are pirating on ships hold vastly less to gain than thieves do on land. They are limited to a certain amount of pillages within any given period, and can only take as much gold as you have in the strongbox. Want to not get pillaged? Put minute amounts of gold in. Also maybe re-add forceboarding while we're at it, with no potential way to kill denizens on the ship or actually steal anything. Your ship will disengage from the enemy ship after x amount of minutes, forcing you back across unless you are hindered (If you are hindered when this occurs, maybe a quick "YOU NEED TO LEAVE" or just instant-death. Who knows.)

"You should gain infamy for hunting x areas."

You already gain infamy from hunting Moghedu, because like 30 chucklefucks joined the Guardians of Moghedu for free-PK rights and don't even follow the rules laid out in help denizen alliances.

"Raiding/Guard Raiding Infamy"

Just. Please. For the love of all that is holy. Make people targeted infamous. City A raids and kills 100 of City B's guards. Random person from City C, D, E, or F should not get to just fling themselves into the situation to pk the people in City A. Make it a specific targeted infamous bounty system.

Elyon

I think guards should be hard to kill, simply because of why they exist. Making them easier doesn't really do anything, except make them more likely to be killed en masse whenever the defending city chooses not to engage. (such as when they WERE easier to kill) - Guards already can be killed fairly easily if the group knows what they're doing (which is an argument you've already used yourself, for keeping something the way it is). -ive not heard of that since the new change to it but ok

Making things affect your infamy more or whatever, functionally does nothing as it currently stands without first addressing the consequence of building higher and higher infamy.

-- this is precisely what I want to see. Higher and higher infamy for those choosing to partake in aggressive actions

Elyon

@Adrik Great! I have a ton of ideas.

Being able to bribe people off of ships is just 2 damn expensive. Moreover, with the proliferation of Island Wings being generated into the game, it's very safe to just set your ship return to some outer island and go there whenever you need to (since most of the general populace won't go there). And then just disembark and Duanatharic from a friggin OUTER ISLAND as you please.

Solution 1: Make bribing cheaper.

Solution 2: Make Island Wings not work from outer Islands/ships. I have no idea why this is even a thing.

Solution 3: Both.

---Yep ok that's pretty fair but also make bribing available to everyone

"People who pirate on ships should be tagged as thieves on land."

People who are pirating on ships hold vastly less to gain than thieves do on land. They are limited to a certain amount of pillages within any given period, and can only take as much gold as you have in the strongbox. Want to not get pillaged? Put minute amounts of gold in. Also maybe re-add forceboarding while we're at it, with no potential way to kill denizens on the ship or actually steal anything. Your ship will disengage from the enemy ship after x amount of minutes, forcing you back across unless you are hindered (If you are hindered when this occurs, maybe a quick "YOU NEED TO LEAVE" or just instant-death. Who knows.)

-- force board sounds interesting but I don't think it'd solve the issue of the two or three people making the seas annoying for everyone.

the strongbox argument is the same as the "you can bank gold in a bank" argument for actual theft, so I think it should be treated on the same level.

"You should gain infamy for hunting x areas."

You already gain infamy from hunting Moghedu, because like 30 chucklefucks joined the Guardians of Moghedu for free-PK rights and don't even follow the rules laid out in help denizen alliances.

--I mean so far noone to my knowledge has been told to actually stop by administration yet with the moghedu business, so I don't really see the big issue and I for sure didn't join it for free pk rights

"Raiding/Guard Raiding Infamy"

Just. Please. For the love of all that is holy. Make people targeted infamous. City A raids and kills 100 of City B's guards. Random person from City C, D, E, or F should not get to just fling themselves into the situation to pk the people in City A. Make it a specific targeted infamous bounty system

-- that's not how infamous works at all. If you opt into aggressive actions you should be open to all other infamous folks . It'd be like saying that only someone of city a could attack someone who stole from city a. Kinda silly. If you want to opt into conflict then go the whole hog.

Saonji

Right. But higher infamy still does nothing ... Except make you take longer for your infamy to disappear. Which ... Isn't really a consequence.

@Adrik They're not "free-PK" just so you're aware. You're allowed to hire on them for defending Moghedu, or kill them later. HELP DENIZEN ALLIANCES rather explicitly states this.

Elyon

@Saonji just leaves you open to be ganked for longer, that's literally it. Let death be as it is in regards to how nasty it can be to someone. Just have it so that people cant uh, hide from their actions by waiting patiently for it to drop

Elyon

I will also throw out that every person I've pked in mog has been with a fricking criers bell, so that should tell you a bit about how people are pretty clearly automating their hunting there a leeeeeettle too much for their own good

Accipiter

I think you misunderstood as well Elyon. People don't want more serious consequences in general, they want more serious consequences for you in specific because they are currently unable to mete those out to you with your exceptional running away skills.

Gallida

Give all forms of non-class fast travel an aggression timer.

Poof, consequences restored.

Saonji

Would be nice, actually. That way you can't just book it out of the city the minute a raid ends, too.

Assuming stuff like ENTER PORTAL/RIFT also doesn't work if you're not a Magi/Depthswalker.

Elyon

@Accipiter yes, but at the same time these things are being exploited by other folk in the same way which clearly some folk agree with

@Gallida include class fast travel. Raido etc but yes I suggested this in at least one thread

@Saonji right. Or you can't just pop in, radiance someone, pop out. It'd breed more action in general and require more tactical play

Gallida

I think there should be some bonus to having escape skills in a class, because ideally, you had to give up something else for that utility.

The problem is that arties and promotional things are just as good as class escape skills, so the trade off no longer exists when every monk and runie has their innate tankiness with the escape potential of, say, occultist.

I'd also move to revert the Orb of Confinement change and expand it to hinder more than just flying/wings. If you raid an enemy city, you should have to fight your way out or figure out a slower way than an aliased command.

Tahquil

Using the Wong-Baker scale for asses I think this thread might be about an 8.

Amranu

@Adrik You don't need to disembark to use Island wings :)

Elyon

@Tahquil as someone who I believe claims to not be a combatant, I'm not entirely sure what your wrong baking scale is doing here

Elyon

@Gallida Orb of confinement hits everything would be a good change

@Amranu nerf it immediately