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Comments
Remember: Anything that knocks you prone knocks you out of Heartsfury.
heartsfury is about 1s. Whilst calling harmonics (which can be done after a jab) is about 3 seconds...
So while I can jab about once every 1.7~1.8 seconds.. If I have to do both of these things every room I move. I lose about 1s, and then 1.2 seconds. If I get knocked prone at all, I lose the tankiness buff of HF or spend another 1s putting it back up. This just doesn't feel right.
If we're talking unartied CALL HARMONICS is 4s. You also have to play symphony a lot, also doesn't factor how long it takes to put up harmonics without the arties. Jab is closer to (slightly over iirc?) 2s when unartied. Aria is barely more hp than 1 extra con is, which a lot of classes get. Dwinnu is useless if you're not fighting mobs that web/entangle you (which is a small amount anyway).
Cantata is pretty good, sure, but doesn't nearly make up for the rest of it.
Heartsfury definitely doesn't provide enough protection to warrant keeping it up. Even less so once you get arties.
eta: Also unartied harmonics don't actually come until like 8s after you call them. 🙃
Disappearing from Achaea for now. See you, space cowboy.
smileyface#8048 if you wanna chat.
K, there's a lot here, so I'm going to try to answer what I can, and more keep rolling in. Sorry if I miss anything.
@Shecks -> Overall I'm a little confused as to how the dps margins are so huge. My original post here was calling for dps to consider things like tankiness, sustain, and utility - and it seems like it was - but it almost feels a bit random. Like why does serpent (above average tankiness, high sustain, high utility) have the highest DPS, while Bard (low tankiness, high sustain, mid utility) have 2/3 the dps? Seems a little arbitrary to me...
Okay, so, there's a few things here. Serpent is probably always going to be slightly above the pack, for a few reasons. Keep in mind these are balanced around fully unartied players, which means that the numbers for 16 dex mean actively speccing out of con and removing some of the tankier race options. Not sure why you think Serpents have sustain or bashing utility either. Wip is going to come out a bit ahead of lash for reasons mentioned in the announce. These put it pretty solidly where it belongs at the unartied level. It keeps that ahead of the pack status in the artied bracket, but the only time it's the obvious/only bashing choice is when you're amped up on rare minerals and SoW elixirs. In the standard bracket ( 16 base, lvl 3 arties, 19 str ), it's still pretty high on the list, but it's certainly not the best or only option.
If you don't read anything else in this post, and are upset or confused about why your class was changed, please read this paragraph: As for Bard nerfs, and I'm addressing several other comments here and discussions elsewhere that mention Bard, it seems like people think we went through and picked classes that were under/over-performing and nerfed/buffed them accordingly, and they take issue with that assessment ("Bard didn't need a nerf!"). I understand why people feel that these changes were arbitrary, if we were making them based on current class performance, but this isn't at all what happened. We brought every single bashing ability in line to the same dps baseline, and without regard to their current performance balanced them appropriately based on the tools available to the class, applying attack and class specific modifiers as necessary. The % changes listed in the newspost may have made it seem like these were conscious decisions on a class by class basis, but those were absolutely just reference numbers, a quick numerical comparison from the dps those classes started with to the dps they ended with.
Regarding Bard specifically, if you look specifically at the 16B column in the first table, Bard is actually placed relatively high. I'm not quite sure why Jester is outperforming Bard, I've made a note and will look into it. The others, though, are lower than Bard at a baseline, but are displayed higher because they benefit from buffs like Depthswalker terminus augments, psion's free transcendence shatters, or are squishy, resource-intensive classes like monk and Shaman. I'm ignoring Dragon here, as it's intended to be a relatively high-end bashing machine (baseline, anyway), and is surely meant to be a step up from most unartied classes.
Bard scaling into the artied bracket is certainly a bit low, and we'll discuss what we can do to bring that up a bit, especially given the extra investment required in the form of a collar.
@Atalkez -> I guess I’m confused on what the intention is here. I thought this would bring more classes to center which means making more classes viable in general. This seemingly has done the opposite, making serpent once again the unquestionably best option since nothing else even comes close to the dps except Arash BM, which should arguably be the absolute best in the game.
This is somewhat addressed above, but a bit more on it. The rebalance is very much targetted towards making every option viable at the lower investment levels, and while we're trying to keep everything within a certain threshold of one another at the higher end, due to the way Serpent works, the class has always been the go-to for high end bashing when you want to crank out damage at absurd speeds, and while it's been toned back a bit (Serpent dps has absolutely not gone up, contrary to some claims) we're relatively okay with it still being a top performer at the higher tiers of bashing. As mentioned before, though, it's definitely not the top damage output, or the only choice, until you get into rare minerals and SoW elixir levels of stats. This might be scaled back a bit, but I don't think it's out of the question to have Serpent really shine when you get into those absurd levels of stats.
@Lyrin -> Using shikudo as an example, (i think) the only artifacts that affect damage output are strength and staff. If you're just looking at staff arties v.s. no staff arties (because variation in strength is in a different column), why would the difference between 12 str shikudo be 43% (328/229) if the level 3 staff is only 20%
Perhaps I didn't explain very well, as it seems plenty of folks misunderstood. 12/16/19 base stats are just that, base stats. Artefacted dps numbers include level 3 artes for all stats, so something under the 12B column would be run at 15 for artied calculations. 16B at 19 stats, and 19B at 22 stats (still well into the consumeables/favours only territory). Hope that clears this up. This might also be why some people think Serpent is the clear top dog at artied levels? Not sure.
@Veldrin -> I would absolutely love if I could do like AB ELEMENTALISM STAFF and then in the extra information see what base damage I'd do right now (ie arties calculated in) with whatever weapon I have in hand if it's viable (such as for garrote, smite or slaughter) and see the modified balance regain after traits and other relevant arties.
While I'd love to do this, it's absolutely just not possible. Not without far more man hours than we can muster. Would be weeks of full-time work, for what is very little actual tangible impact on the game at large. Sorry.
Veldrin -> and why the big disparacy between gut and incanation?
As mentioned before, some incantation changes didn't get pushed live. They'll be fixed up soon, alongside the Sentinel Thrust stuff.
@Aegoth -> Is there a good reason as to why Serpent STILL has almost +100dps at max artie conpared to pretty much every class when it’s one of the safest, versatile classes for bashing? Resistall+ scalemail+fast balance+evade, not to mention further tankiness with cape. I just don’t see the logic at all. Why such an enormous disparity?
Please see above.
@Austere -> One thing I see, similar to Apostate, Arius seems a bit lackluster given the requirement to spec as quick-witted. Completely neutering your pvp should probably come with more of a buff. Inlcuding monk for comparison of something that isnt neutering out.
Numbers across shaman bashing methods are fairly comparable. Arius dps at the unartied level is slightly higher because of the longer balance times, but both are feasible options. At the highest end of arties, going from Swiftcurse to Arius is a not insignificant boost, if you're looking to spec out of PvP and invest in the arties for that swap. Highest artied DPS in the game short of Arash BM is nothing to sniff at.
@Axios2 -> Are the DW numbers assuming the use of the Hunting tree buffs in Terminus? If so, that's a bit problematic as it precludes use of pretty essential tools in solo/group combat (Mainaas defense, Tooros damage, Litany, bahar lightning, etc.). No PK-ing DW would want to bash in it if so, assuming they had access to elemental lord / dragon instead.
DW dps is balanced to the same threshold as other classes, not including the hunting buffs, so if you're not researched into hunting, you won't be behind the curve. The numbers listed in the chart, however, include the hunting buffs, which is why DW is listed so high.
@Mizik -> I can appreciate the Staffcast/Warp/Iron/Decay/etc cloning patch, but we should make Deadeyes the standard. Swap these - Apostate is a balance PVP class.
This wasn't intended, deadeyes is just a rats nest and didn't take kindly to the changes. Actual numbers for ApoDeadeyes are as follows:
Mizik -> Like Alchemist, tough to tell a novice "Hey, 100cr if you want to swap between bash or pk." Do we want to address balance vs eq for Alchemist?
I can't really comment on this. I don't disagree with your point, I'll make a note of it and we can discuss, but I can't make any promises one way or another.
Mizik -> Is the baseline Arash? Sanya should be this baseline with Arash boosting near top end, since the class is bottom tier damage resist with no PVE health actives. I've said let's open Sternum strike to deal 25% of current Drawslash damage and make Bind Shin relevant, since it has no place in competitive PVP.
The numbers you're seeing above are unstanced. Each stance will apply the same modifiers you're used to, which puts Arash BM pretty solidly in the lead at just about every level of bashing, with all the accompanying drawbacks. Other stances will modify your damage and speed accordingly.
Mizik -> Does Druid not use Maul? What happened here? Is Thrust not the standard Sentinel attack? I assume this is a typo.
Druid numbers are for Maul, yes. SentMaul numbers are maul as a sentinel. SentSpear are dps numbers for Thrust.
Mizik -> Assume anything non-Tower is buckler/SoA? In which case best DR is best DPS. We want that?
These are all pretty much within the same realm. The discrepancies you're seeing are almost entirely due to the speed bonus mentioned in the announce post, for the far slower balance times.
@Taryius -> Looking from the perspective of a fully artied individual, I think some of the discrepancy between the lowest and highest at max arties could be adjusted, maybe by making the diminishing returns less stringent.
This is probably always going to fluctuate up and down as we adjust things accordingly. I grant you a 40% discrepancy between the highest and lowest isn't great, but it's a damn sight better than the numbers we had before.
Taryius -> All the Knights, really, and Priest and of course Bard. They are quite inline at the unartied level, but anything to bring them closer at the max artied level where tankiness is less relevant would be great.
This is less a problem with weapon classes being too low, and more a problem with the absurd benefit that diadem gives to eq classes. We might look at scaling this back a bit, or scaling up the artefact bonuses on these classes, but it's something we have to be careful about.
Taryius -> Also Airlord and Waterlord seem oddly low, they should probably be above Earth at a minimum and likely tied or close to Firelord.
You're probably right. This is mostly due to their strange base stats. We'll talk about mods to bring them up to snuff. I think the rest of your questions were addressed previously.
@Adrik -> But 2h is about 1% lower than Bard.. but has way more survivability in almost every single occasion.
The numbers above have unartied bard about 4% ahead of 2h in dps, but the only reason they're that close is the speed discrepancy on those longer balance attacks. In practice it should be a decent bit faster (somewhere between 9-15%, depending on what you're hunting).
Ok, that was a lot. Again, if I missed a question, sorry, ask again. If you see any other issues, feel free to let us know.
Really impressive overhaul. Thanks a lot for all your time and attention.
@Phaestus What exactly are you taking into account, when talking about Bard's tankiness?
Unartied, it's one of the squishiest classes in the game. Even compared to something like Pariah (who can go horkval for a much better increase, since horkval isn't that much better than leather). I'm legitimately curious as to the disparity between it and a number of other classes. Neither Shaman, nor Monk, are squishier than Bard is. Hell Shaman's always been one of the better unartied classes, that only gets even better with arties. 😐️
With heartsfury and a full stack of harmonics, you might be close to average tankiness, but that's also incredibly unrealistic. Its numbers were honestly fine where they were, comparing it to the rest of the chart.
Disappearing from Achaea for now. See you, space cowboy.
smileyface#8048 if you wanna chat.
@Saonji -> What exactly are you taking into account, when talking about Bard's tankiness?
Shaman and monk have the same damage modifiers as bard and pariah (higher than any other class or spec), less as a result of their lack of survivability, mostly because of how extremely resource intensive their hunting is. You may be outputting more damage, but you're either going to have to put much more into upkeeping your willpower reserves, or you're going to be hunting for far shorter periods of time.
@Phaestus
I was talking about this though
seems like even if the Incantation changes are pushed through it'll still be lagging behind?
Thanks for the answers !
Knowing that the classes are all a lot closer together now overall has taken out so much of the FOMO over class choice. Thank you so much for doing this!
@Phaestus
Not really buying the logic about keeping serpent -so high above- other classes at the high end artie level. You are not taking into account the effect this has on things like Great Hunt competitions. There is no logic that can defend the argument that, in order to have a competitive edge (this is assuming uninterrupted bashing), you need to invest in serpent. +100dps above every other class is absurd. That’s the big problem, and until it’s addressed, there’s going to be a lot of pushback.
I appreciate the effort being put into the streamlining, but let’s not make justifications for obscene outliers... let’s have everyone on a level playing field here.
Being superdefensive of Serpent because it is -my- class, the scaling seems to be on the speed of the attack/crit interaction. It is prossibly in line in real world situations if Maya is included since there should be less overkill.
Me personally - not only am I happy with these explanations, I'm also super happy to have explanations in general.
If we could have this kind of two-way discussion about limb damage I think it may even prevent the need for a complicated rework.
Identified an issue with bard that caused Accentato damage to scale with neither int nor strength, meaning the stat scaling behind bard damage was far lower than intended. New numbers are:
Skirmishing Thrust will now scale with strength. New numbers are:
To alleviate the struggles for Alchemists, the nimble trait now increases the damage of educe iron, by an amount comparable to quick-witted's eq reduction. Numbers should be unchanged.
Fixed an issue that caused class modifiers to apply to dragonform and elemental lord form. Numbers should be unchanged.
Added missing mods to air and water lords, bringing them up a bit compared to other lords. New numbers are:
Dragoncraft Incantation fixed to respect the proper scaling. New numbers are:
Garrote speed scaling now has a soft cap at 19, after which any increase in dexterity offers far less benefit. New numbers are:
I appreciate the responses and the clear adjustments based on feedback. Great job guys!
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
More like fucking amazing job. Seriously, nice.
I would appreciate Priest getting a pass. Maybe there’s a bug there you know? 😈
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
This is amazing! Just echoing that again! ❤️
Just wow. I've never seen such quick and thorough responses to player feedback in all my years. The changes listed are spot on! The days of serpent superiority are at an end. My only complaint is that Bards are good now. F bards.
@Phaestus
Some quick testing seems to be showing that terminus laiad increases cull by a really small amount.
What sort of result should we be expecting from Laiad?
(the test was, that on a mob where cull did 49% of the mob's max health, using laiad changed that to 51%. So if I go and hunt creatures where I'm hitting for <10% of the mobs health, the difference won't be measurable).
If that's the intention - no matter. It'd be annoying to want to invest research in the whole hunting tree anyway. But you did say that DW shows up as being so high because of the hunting tree bonuses, and laiad being lackluster makes me wonder if there is a bug...
Edit: Taryius informs me that Laiad is +5%, which lines up close enough to my result (given rounding errors etc) to indicate there is no bug.
Those numbers seem right for Laiad, but the dps numbers listed only include things from the augmentation tree. Hunting tree abilities are additional on top of those.
As a long time bm player, I am extremely happy that Blademaster can finally bash well. having lv3 arties in comparison to runewarden (my mutliclass) was extremely disappointing when I noticed the extreme bashing difference (No artie weapon on 2h).
Thank you
Just hunted nearly half of Morindar with Aerek. Unartied xoran fire breath was accidentally left off this list, so I'll help you out with that. I feel pretty good about where it is now, but I could tell Aerek seemed to be handling most of the heavy lifting during the bashing trip. I'm happy with things as they are. No buff needed. Thanks for all the hard work!
Phaestus is putting me out of a job. 👍️
Would appreciate being able to go through class specific parameters with things like shikudo forms having differing attack values so the ability to instruct people how to hunt optimally and not just what their class should be reaching will allow everyone to make the best of their class.
Thank you though, I appreciate the move to make hunting "fairer" across classes as this remains a major activity that we engage in.
@Phaestus
Wasn’t there some discussion of giving Earth some bonus for being max shaping in PvE? Functionally gaining shaping doesn’t seem to matter, so would a small bonus to damage be something to discuss there?
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Two questions.
1. For Pariah, are you baking the epitaph bonus into that number? Trace should easily outpace Wrack once the bonus stacks high enough, unless the damage on Trace has been adjusted down slightly.
2. For Shaman Swiftcurse, are you getting those numbers by simulating Aelkesh + extra charges from the pendant?
@Phaestus Regarding Shikudo, what path are you using to get those numbers?
Staying in Tykonos is generally favourable because the DPS difference wasn't hugely noticeable, but the damage mitigation was when compared to doing rain>oak>etc
Disappearing from Achaea for now. See you, space cowboy.
smileyface#8048 if you wanna chat.
Did some SnB science
Testing shows that Broadsword is better dps than Longsword, and Rend is better than slice.
At 23str (insp + fury) L3 Broadsword + Tower shield Rend/Smash combo did 23% more base DPS than Slice/Smash with Longsword. Speed is 2.95s vs 2.3s.
This is good news, as it finally gives a use case for both Broadsword and Rend which are almost useless in PVP (not entirely, but almost). This does mean spending 1600cr on a PvE artie though, and ofc you don't get that str for longer than 15min (25 min with fury artie).
I think tremendous work has gone into the overhaul, great effort, it's awesome to see rapid response towards the playerbase too!
Personally, I am not very happy about the overhaul for a single reason: My expectation was an overhaul will pull every class closer to the top, as in, the difference between the best and the worst reduced significantly, but this didn't happen to a noticeable extent, the distance remain pretty much similar. Certain classes are switched position and popular classes generally got a little worse than before (of the tests I did, I can be very wrong, I am aware).
But I think it's early to conclude, pretty sure lots of changes are going in any time, I appreciate the effort and attention to this overhaul nonetheless! It's great work.
It's impossible to balance things at the top the way the game works without fundamentally redesigning all of the attacks. The big issue is stat scaling and things like collar, aldar, class abilities that give stats, class abilities that give crit chance (e.g. DW and Alch).
It's also a fact that raw dps is only a part of this equation, as it ignores damage resistance, crit chance, crit rate (attack speed), utility like Dwinnu etc.
Ultimately the only "real" measurement is exp/essence per hour measured over many hours at peak efficiency, and even that will differ on all sorts of things like which areas you go to, what damage types your doing, what damage types you resist, what defensive arties you own, what non-class buffs you have (e.g. Ethian, Jera), and even time zone.
At the end of the day, if people buy like 4 pve dps scaling items on their class (like Knights and Int monks), there's no way it can or should be equal to a class that only has 2 such items (or 1, even, in a few cases).
There are some things you could do though like tying Endurance to str so people going around in events with 30str burn endurance much faster, which kinda makes sense. (Noting admin have been good about disabling minerals for events which helps a lot with this issue).
The only true way to balance it perfectly would be to just give everyone the exact same bashing attack that doesn't scale at all with stats (which would still favor classes with higher tankiness/utility). No thanks.
The way I see it, as long as the best classes aren't faction-locked (they're not) then it's completely fine for classes to be a bit unbalanced at the high end. If you really, really, REALLY want to be the ultimate bashing machine then do the math and pick up the best class.
Sylvan is the only one left that gives me concern, particularly in the unartied category. Having every wp boost imaginable, sans artie armor, I still run out fairly quickly on the top end. I can't imagine how these kids with nothing are fairing. Bottom tier dps and likely the shortest hunting periods, isn't going to make this class very well loved. This might be more a willpower drain adjustment situation than an actual dps adjustment though. Sylvan is a tank.
Other than that, these look amazing. Top notch changes and feedback.
Piggy backing myself here: assuming I understand these metrics right, stormhammer against three targets looks to be in a good position, but two targets reads a bit lackluster, given the increased risk and willpower drain. As it isn't the primary method, this one isn't as important, but unique things are always awesome and I like making things go boom boom.
Unsure how willing you guys are to introduce different bals for pve v pvp, but scaling balances off target count would definitely catch this and leave room to make hammer generally stronger than staffcast, but with the much steeper wp and mana cost.
Just spitballing here.