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Bashing DPS Overhaul

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  • Adrik
    Adrik Member Posts: 698 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    Remember: Anything that knocks you prone knocks you out of Heartsfury.


    heartsfury is about 1s. Whilst calling harmonics (which can be done after a jab) is about 3 seconds...


    So while I can jab about once every 1.7~1.8 seconds.. If I have to do both of these things every room I move. I lose about 1s, and then 1.2 seconds. If I get knocked prone at all, I lose the tankiness buff of HF or spend another 1s putting it back up. This just doesn't feel right.

  • Saonji
    Saonji Member Posts: 803 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited April 11

    If we're talking unartied CALL HARMONICS is 4s. You also have to play symphony a lot, also doesn't factor how long it takes to put up harmonics without the arties. Jab is closer to (slightly over iirc?) 2s when unartied. Aria is barely more hp than 1 extra con is, which a lot of classes get. Dwinnu is useless if you're not fighting mobs that web/entangle you (which is a small amount anyway).

    Cantata is pretty good, sure, but doesn't nearly make up for the rest of it.

    Heartsfury definitely doesn't provide enough protection to warrant keeping it up. Even less so once you get arties.

    eta: Also unartied harmonics don't actually come until like 8s after you call them. 🙃

  • Mizik
    Mizik Member Posts: 2,246 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Really impressive overhaul. Thanks a lot for all your time and attention.

    image
    LucianusCaelanNovaki
  • Saonji
    Saonji Member Posts: 803 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited April 11

    @Phaestus What exactly are you taking into account, when talking about Bard's tankiness?

    Unartied, it's one of the squishiest classes in the game. Even compared to something like Pariah (who can go horkval for a much better increase, since horkval isn't that much better than leather). I'm legitimately curious as to the disparity between it and a number of other classes. Neither Shaman, nor Monk, are squishier than Bard is. Hell Shaman's always been one of the better unartied classes, that only gets even better with arties. 😐️

    With heartsfury and a full stack of harmonics, you might be close to average tankiness, but that's also incredibly unrealistic. Its numbers were honestly fine where they were, comparing it to the rest of the chart.

  • Phaestus
    Phaestus Member, Moderator Posts: 149 Immortal

    @Saonji -> What exactly are you taking into account, when talking about Bard's tankiness?

    Shaman and monk have the same damage modifiers as bard and pariah (higher than any other class or spec), less as a result of their lack of survivability, mostly because of how extremely resource intensive their hunting is. You may be outputting more damage, but you're either going to have to put much more into upkeeping your willpower reserves, or you're going to be hunting for far shorter periods of time.

  • Veldrin
    Veldrin DenmarkMember Posts: 529 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    @Phaestus

    I was talking about this though

    1. DragonGut             310   333
    2.    (art)              333   345
    3. DragonIncant          211   224
    4.    (art)              323   330

    seems like even if the Incantation changes are pushed through it'll still be lagging behind?

    Thanks for the answers !


  • Eurice
    Eurice Member Posts: 8

    Knowing that the classes are all a lot closer together now overall has taken out so much of the FOMO over class choice. Thank you so much for doing this!

    Aiwendil
  • Aegoth
    Aegoth Member Posts: 2,934 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    @Phaestus


    Not really buying the logic about keeping serpent -so high above- other classes at the high end artie level. You are not taking into account the effect this has on things like Great Hunt competitions. There is no logic that can defend the argument that, in order to have a competitive edge (this is assuming uninterrupted bashing), you need to invest in serpent. +100dps above every other class is absurd. That’s the big problem, and until it’s addressed, there’s going to be a lot of pushback.


    I appreciate the effort being put into the streamlining, but let’s not make justifications for obscene outliers... let’s have everyone on a level playing field here.

    KeorinNovaki
  • Accipiter
    Accipiter Member Posts: 719 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    Being superdefensive of Serpent because it is -my- class, the scaling seems to be on the speed of the attack/crit interaction. It is prossibly in line in real world situations if Maya is included since there should be less overkill.

  • Shecks
    Shecks Member Posts: 984 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    Me personally - not only am I happy with these explanations, I'm also super happy to have explanations in general.

    If we could have this kind of two-way discussion about limb damage I think it may even prevent the need for a complicated rework.

    CaelanAiwendilNovakiRomaen
  • Atalkez
    Atalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,475 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I would appreciate Priest getting a pass. Maybe there’s a bug there you know? 😈


    Deucalion has cowardly declined the challenge of Atalkez to engage in mortal combat.

    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Romaen
  • Taryius
    Taryius Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 889 @ - Epic Achaean

    This is amazing! Just echoing that again! ❤️

    AtalkezEskShirszaeAiwendil
  • Leffe
    Leffe Member Posts: 40
    edited April 12

    @Phaestus

    Some quick testing seems to be showing that terminus laiad increases cull by a really small amount.

    What sort of result should we be expecting from Laiad?

    (the test was, that on a mob where cull did 49% of the mob's max health, using laiad changed that to 51%. So if I go and hunt creatures where I'm hitting for <10% of the mobs health, the difference won't be measurable).

    If that's the intention - no matter. It'd be annoying to want to invest research in the whole hunting tree anyway. But you did say that DW shows up as being so high because of the hunting tree bonuses, and laiad being lackluster makes me wonder if there is a bug...

    Edit: Taryius informs me that Laiad is +5%, which lines up close enough to my result (given rounding errors etc) to indicate there is no bug.

  • Phaestus
    Phaestus Member, Moderator Posts: 149 Immortal

    Those numbers seem right for Laiad, but the dps numbers listed only include things from the augmentation tree. Hunting tree abilities are additional on top of those.

  • Caladbolg
    Caladbolg Campbell County TNMember Posts: 1,153 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    As a long time bm player, I am extremely happy that Blademaster can finally bash well. having lv3 arties in comparison to runewarden (my mutliclass) was extremely disappointing when I noticed the extreme bashing difference (No artie weapon on 2h).


    Thank you

  • Mayapple
    Mayapple Member Posts: 39 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    Just hunted nearly half of Morindar with Aerek. Unartied xoran fire breath was accidentally left off this list, so I'll help you out with that. I feel pretty good about where it is now, but I could tell Aerek seemed to be handling most of the heavy lifting during the bashing trip. I'm happy with things as they are. No buff needed. Thanks for all the hard work!

    Kog
  • Mindshell
    Mindshell Member Posts: 331 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    Phaestus is putting me out of a job. 👍️

    Would appreciate being able to go through class specific parameters with things like shikudo forms having differing attack values so the ability to instruct people how to hunt optimally and not just what their class should be reaching will allow everyone to make the best of their class.

    Thank you though, I appreciate the move to make hunting "fairer" across classes as this remains a major activity that we engage in.

    AtalkezDochithaRakdosCailin
  • Atalkez
    Atalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,475 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    @Phaestus

    Wasn’t there some discussion of giving Earth some bonus for being max shaping in PvE? Functionally gaining shaping doesn’t seem to matter, so would a small bonus to damage be something to discuss there?


    Deucalion has cowardly declined the challenge of Atalkez to engage in mortal combat.

    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • Gallida
    Gallida Member Posts: 188 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    Two questions.

    1. For Pariah, are you baking the epitaph bonus into that number? Trace should easily outpace Wrack once the bonus stacks high enough, unless the damage on Trace has been adjusted down slightly.

    2. For Shaman Swiftcurse, are you getting those numbers by simulating Aelkesh + extra charges from the pendant?

  • Saonji
    Saonji Member Posts: 803 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    @Phaestus Regarding Shikudo, what path are you using to get those numbers?

    Staying in Tykonos is generally favourable because the DPS difference wasn't hugely noticeable, but the damage mitigation was when compared to doing rain>oak>etc

  • Shecks
    Shecks Member Posts: 984 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 12

    Did some SnB science

    Testing shows that Broadsword is better dps than Longsword, and Rend is better than slice.

    At 23str (insp + fury) L3 Broadsword + Tower shield Rend/Smash combo did 23% more base DPS than Slice/Smash with Longsword. Speed is 2.95s vs 2.3s.

    This is good news, as it finally gives a use case for both Broadsword and Rend which are almost useless in PVP (not entirely, but almost). This does mean spending 1600cr on a PvE artie though, and ofc you don't get that str for longer than 15min (25 min with fury artie).

  • Dochitha
    Dochitha Member Posts: 1,474 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited April 12

    I think tremendous work has gone into the overhaul, great effort, it's awesome to see rapid response towards the playerbase too!

    Personally, I am not very happy about the overhaul for a single reason: My expectation was an overhaul will pull every class closer to the top, as in, the difference between the best and the worst reduced significantly, but this didn't happen to a noticeable extent, the distance remain pretty much similar. Certain classes are switched position and popular classes generally got a little worse than before (of the tests I did, I can be very wrong, I am aware).

    But I think it's early to conclude, pretty sure lots of changes are going in any time, I appreciate the effort and attention to this overhaul nonetheless! It's great work.

  • Shecks
    Shecks Member Posts: 984 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 12

    It's impossible to balance things at the top the way the game works without fundamentally redesigning all of the attacks. The big issue is stat scaling and things like collar, aldar, class abilities that give stats, class abilities that give crit chance (e.g. DW and Alch).


    It's also a fact that raw dps is only a part of this equation, as it ignores damage resistance, crit chance, crit rate (attack speed), utility like Dwinnu etc.

    Ultimately the only "real" measurement is exp/essence per hour measured over many hours at peak efficiency, and even that will differ on all sorts of things like which areas you go to, what damage types your doing, what damage types you resist, what defensive arties you own, what non-class buffs you have (e.g. Ethian, Jera), and even time zone.

    At the end of the day, if people buy like 4 pve dps scaling items on their class (like Knights and Int monks), there's no way it can or should be equal to a class that only has 2 such items (or 1, even, in a few cases).

    There are some things you could do though like tying Endurance to str so people going around in events with 30str burn endurance much faster, which kinda makes sense. (Noting admin have been good about disabling minerals for events which helps a lot with this issue).

    The only true way to balance it perfectly would be to just give everyone the exact same bashing attack that doesn't scale at all with stats (which would still favor classes with higher tankiness/utility). No thanks.


    The way I see it, as long as the best classes aren't faction-locked (they're not) then it's completely fine for classes to be a bit unbalanced at the high end. If you really, really, REALLY want to be the ultimate bashing machine then do the math and pick up the best class.

  • Austere
    Austere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,372 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Sylvan is the only one left that gives me concern, particularly in the unartied category. Having every wp boost imaginable, sans artie armor, I still run out fairly quickly on the top end. I can't imagine how these kids with nothing are fairing. Bottom tier dps and likely the shortest hunting periods, isn't going to make this class very well loved. This might be more a willpower drain adjustment situation than an actual dps adjustment though. Sylvan is a tank.

    Other than that, these look amazing. Top notch changes and feedback.

  • Austere
    Austere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,372 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Piggy backing myself here: assuming I understand these metrics right, stormhammer against three targets looks to be in a good position, but two targets reads a bit lackluster, given the increased risk and willpower drain. As it isn't the primary method, this one isn't as important, but unique things are always awesome and I like making things go boom boom.

    Unsure how willing you guys are to introduce different bals for pve v pvp, but scaling balances off target count would definitely catch this and leave room to make hammer generally stronger than staffcast, but with the much steeper wp and mana cost.


    Just spitballing here.

    Dochitha
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