A Gentleman's Agreement

Jovolo

How does everybody feel about rolling back systems for primitive use of serverside with simplistic offence. We're talking aliases, highlights, the occasional function. Absolutely no AK and Austere is also banned from participating.

We can call it A Gentleman's Agreement and see how everybody enjoys themselves over the next couple of weeks?

Austere

Jovolo said:

How does everybody feel about rolling back systems for primitive use of serverside with simplistic offence. We're talking aliases, highlights, the occasional function. Absolutely no AK and Austere is also banned from participating.

We can call it A Gentleman's Agreement and see how everybody enjoys themselves over the next couple of weeks?

Why do I get the hate? Hater. All I did was release something for FREE that someone was trying to charge mortgage rates for.  Robin Hood'd that shit.  If anything, I should be getting a thank you.  YOU'RE WELCOME FOR LOWERING THE BARRIER BETWEEN THE HAVE AND THE HAVE NOTS. 

(Real talk, I'm totally down for no script, blank profile, ss alias only fights. I'll take you on any day. 5cr says we standstill vs serverside curing) 

Jovolo

YOU BETTER HAVE A READ THROUGH AB BRAWLING, BOY, BECAUSE MY FOOT IS ABOUT TO MEET YOUR ASS

Jovolo

Also you ruined the game

Chubbs

Austere said:

Why do I get the hate? Hater. All I did was release something for FREE that someone was trying to charge mortgage rates for.  Robin Hood'd that shit.  If anything, I should be getting a thank you.  YOU'RE WELCOME FOR LOWERING THE BARRIER BETWEEN THE HAVE AND THE HAVE NOTS. 

(Real talk, I'm totally down for no script, blank profile, ss alias only fights. I'll take you on any day. 5cr says we standstill vs serverside curing) 

I already do this. Let's go. I'm ready to get rocked.

Archaeon

no i am too old now i will make too many mistakes

Jovolo

Archaeon said:

no i am too old now i will make too many mistakes

i accept your proclamation of defeat

Atalkez

This is my daily.

Shecks

I'm personally a big fan of everyone using AK.  No offence meant to Austere who is ostensibly doing a good thing here, but other people using other someone else's code that is extremely vulnerable to illusions, and incentives people to not actually learn how to fight without a system.... is only good for us serpents.

I have this theory:

1)  (early Achaea) Curing Systems beats "basic combat" (no systems) --> incentivizes everyone to use curing systems
2)  (2015, Godzilla then others) Affliction tracking (and the scripting that comes with it) beats Curing Systems  --> incentivizes everyone to use aff tracking and scripting
*)  Serverside curing takes over a la WunderSys and updated SVOF using serverside
3)  (TBD) <insert here>  decimates the utility of affliction tracking systems -->  incentivizes people to not use aff tracking systems / scripted offense as they will hurt you more than they help now.
4)  Since the above <insert here> relies on highly accurate client-side self-affliction tracking (e.g. SVOF) to function and can't pull this information from serverside (you have to diagnose), this puts the emphasis back on relying on good client-side Curing Systems without relying on serverside curing exclusively or using affliction tracking --> back to 2) 

It's circular.  The only problem is that the <insert here> is missing, so the circle stops on affliction tracking meta, and I don't know why - because it's painfully obvious what beats it - it's not terribly hard to code compared to a curing system or a good affliction tracker.

The <insert here> is a combination of tactics and illusions intelligently selected and timed in order to mislead aff tracking systems by doing things like double/triple-eating herbs while off herb-balance while using illusions to guide automated offenses away from critical steps.  For instance if you have asthma and paralysis, then eat kelp and bloodroot (together), a primitive aff tracking system will think you don't have paralysis anymore and will either automatically queue a paralysis attack or prompt the user to do so (which will be a completely wasted attack since you already have it).  Yes, there are a lot more complexities here like watching herb balance, but all of this solveable when illusions are included in the picture.   This is especially true that around 6-7 classes have free access to illusion, everyone can buy it for 800cr, and now we can even use 3-line illusions with lightspire.

The good news is, I'm 3 days into writing such a system (that extremely carefully selects the best possible illusion or false cure tactics for you), and I intend on releasing it for free once it is complete.  Probably people don't understand what this will do to the combat scene but I expect that if people actually use this, but we can expect that it will completely change the meta.

Am I completely obliterating Godzilla by releasing a free system designed to destroy it?  Pretty much!


for illustration:

Basic, manual knight combat --> Knights use limb tracker to track damage --> illusioned limb hits become meta --> breaks limb trackers --> back to manual combat.

Atalkez

Eat/Eat/Eat is very easy to script around, because you can track the herb balance and it's actively a bad decision defensively because you're elongating your curing time for no real gain. Eating an herb while off herb balance means your herb balance is not coming back when it should, which means you are losing cure time overall. You would need to illusion an eat/real eat/illusion eat again for any chance for that to actually work and overall is never better than just hitting back yourself to hinder.

There are lots of defensive options that illusions really lend themselves to. I do like illusioning eats or rebounding/shield or even tumbles - and they do work, but they are not going to work against anything other than the most basic of affliction trackers that are out there. I do agree though, that someone who does all of this often enough it much easier for someone like me to fight than someone who relies on their scripts to carry them through.

Shecks

Stacked herb eats don't extend herb balance, first of all.  You can eat 50 herbs (stacked commands) and it will still be the same balance time.  The illusion on serpent sets me back by about 400ms after a doublestab or about 650ms from full balance.  But for illusions I would prefer using symptom lines or false negatives instead of illusioned cures, most of the time, as these are much more difficult to logically (automatically) dismiss.

If I can screw up an affliction tracker for 400ms of eq I'm going to do it every time, as that extra time while my opponent is hitting me with afflictions that I already have (or not hitting me with high prio affs he thinks I have but don't) then that gives me a lot more time to focus on my offense instead of shielding or evading - or screws up his quad-break combo or automated heartseed/reclaim/vivi, etc.

In any case, a lot of this stuff is so dense that it won't make sense until you see the code and see what I mean.  Which you will .  Don't forget - people said that the first affliction tracker (mine, as it preceded Klendathu's which preceded Austere's AK) wouldn't work too, right before it got cloned and became the new meta.  

Atalkez

Shecks said:

Stacked herb eats don't extend herb balance, first of all. 

You eat a magnesium chip.

5967h, 6983m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb- (-10m)

You remove 1 magnesium, bringing the total in the rift to 1355.

5967h, 6983m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You may eat another plant or mineral.

5967h, 6993m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb- (+10m)

Venari has stopped his own heart, killing himself instantly.

5967h, 6993m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You eat a magnesium chip.

5967h, 6993m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You remove 1 magnesium, bringing the total in the rift to 1354.

5967h, 6993m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You eat a magnesium chip.

The mineral has no effect.

5967h, 6993m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You remove 1 magnesium, bringing the total in the rift to 1353.

5967h, 6993m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You eat a magnesium chip.

The mineral has no effect.

5967h, 6983m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb- (-10m)

You remove 1 magnesium, bringing the total in the rift to 1352.

5967h, 6983m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You eat a magnesium chip.

The mineral has no effect.

5967h, 6983m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You remove 1 magnesium, bringing the total in the rift to 1351.

5967h, 6983m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You eat a magnesium chip.

The mineral has no effect.

5967h, 6993m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb- (+10m)

You remove 1 magnesium, bringing the total in the rift to 1350.

5967h, 6993m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You eat a magnesium chip.

The mineral has no effect.

5967h, 6993m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You remove 1 magnesium, bringing the total in the rift to 1349.

5967h, 6993m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You may eat another plant or mineral.

You been gone a while my man. I know what I'm talking about.

Shecks

@Atalkez - not that long.  I'm referring to "stacked" or "queued" herb eats, as herb eats while off balance are a reset, not a cumulative effect.

And I dare you to require a prompt on herb eats.  That'd be fun.

Atalkez

You eat a magnesium chip.

You eat a magnesium chip.

The mineral has no effect.

You eat a magnesium chip.

The mineral has no effect.

You eat a magnesium chip.

The mineral has no effect.

You eat a magnesium chip.

The mineral has no effect.

You eat a magnesium chip.

The mineral has no effect.

You eat a magnesium chip.

The mineral has no effect.

5967h, 6983m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb- (-10m)

You remove 1 magnesium, bringing the total in the rift to 1348.

5967h, 6983m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You remove 1 magnesium, bringing the total in the rift to 1347.

5967h, 6983m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You remove 1 magnesium, bringing the total in the rift to 1346.

5967h, 6983m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You remove 1 magnesium, bringing the total in the rift to 1345.

5967h, 6983m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You remove 1 magnesium, bringing the total in the rift to 1344.

5967h, 6983m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You remove 1 magnesium, bringing the total in the rift to 1343.

5967h, 6983m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You remove 1 magnesium, bringing the total in the rift to 1342.

5967h, 6983m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You may eat another plant or mineral.


The timer is after the LAST eat every time dude. I'm not sure what you're missing.

Shecks

I think you missed the point I'm illustrating...

The below is a real log, but from 3rd party POV keep in mind I'm eating 4 herbs, and 1, 2, or 3 of them can be illusions (or none of them).  Any one of them can be the real one.  I lose from 0ms (bite) to 400ms (doublestab) of my offensive pace to do this.



Shecks eats a magnesium chip.
Shecks eats a ferrum flake.
Shecks eats an aurum flake.
Shecks eats an argentum flake.

5342h, 5694m, 22330e, 23860w  exckdb-

The real herb can be literally any of them.  I can also swap in some symptom lines or false negatives instead of using 3 false herbs, like a false smoke, a fake stand, a fake paralysis relapse message, followed by a real herb then 2 fake herbs, then a real bite, all in one prompt (or separate prompts, if preferable).

Saonji

I've missed these posts.

Shecks

There's also this.  I'll let you chew on this one.

Archaeon

I guess you can just try to find out how effective it is in game lol

Cooper

Shecks said:

Don't forget - people said that the first affliction tracker (mine, as it preceded Klendathu's which preceded Austere's AK) wouldn't work too, right before it got cloned and became the new meta.  

Why do you make claims like this? You know that yours wasn't the first affliction tracker.

Dyzanru, Ovid, and Poergh all had working affliction trackers.

Poergh's would dynamically change mid fight with no input from him based on how his opponent previously cured and was currently curing. It also linked up to others using the same system via telnet and could send commands for other people.

Dyzanru's was literally one button that he would just push until he won fights (he didn't use this all the time of course).

You made an affliction tracker, but it was not first, and it was not the best.

Sobriquet

Cooper said:

Shecks said:

Don't forget - people said that the first affliction tracker (mine, as it preceded Klendathu's which preceded Austere's AK) wouldn't work too, right before it got cloned and became the new meta.  

Why do you make claims like this? You know that yours wasn't the first affliction tracker.

Dyzanru, Ovid, and Poergh all had working affliction trackers.

Poergh's would dynamically change mid fight with no input from him based on how his opponent previously cured and was currently curing. It also linked up to others using the same system via telnet and could send commands for other people.

Dyzanru's was literally one button that he would just push until he won fights (he didn't use this all the time of course).

You made an affliction tracker, but it was not first, and it was not the best.

That link up is a novel idea, I assume for raid and team fights so they can sync up the attacks even further?

Cooper

Sobriquet said:

Cooper said:

Shecks said:

Don't forget - people said that the first affliction tracker (mine, as it preceded Klendathu's which preceded Austere's AK) wouldn't work too, right before it got cloned and became the new meta.  

Why do you make claims like this? You know that yours wasn't the first affliction tracker.

Dyzanru, Ovid, and Poergh all had working affliction trackers.

Poergh's would dynamically change mid fight with no input from him based on how his opponent previously cured and was currently curing. It also linked up to others using the same system via telnet and could send commands for other people.

Dyzanru's was literally one button that he would just push until he won fights (he didn't use this all the time of course).

You made an affliction tracker, but it was not first, and it was not the best.

That link up is a novel idea, I assume for raid and team fights so they can sync up the attacks even further?

Yup!

Instead of something like this:

throw hanged man at sobriquet
pt Sobriquet - hanged
trigger to impale on that party call

It went like this:

throw hanged man at sobriquet
telnet crap I don't understand that made the person impale on Poergh's command instead of reacting to what the game sent

I'm pretty sure Ovid (with help from others like Daje) tried to do something similar, though I'm not sure how far they got.

Jovolo

Cooper said:

Shecks said:

Don't forget - people said that the first affliction tracker (mine, as it preceded Klendathu's which preceded Austere's AK) wouldn't work too, right before it got cloned and became the new meta.  

Why do you make claims like this? You know that yours wasn't the first affliction tracker.

Dyzanru, Ovid, and Poergh all had working affliction trackers.

Poergh's would dynamically change mid fight with no input from him based on how his opponent previously cured and was currently curing. It also linked up to others using the same system via telnet and could send commands for other people.

Dyzanru's was literally one button that he would just push until he won fights (he didn't use this all the time of course).

You made an affliction tracker, but it was not first, and it was not the best.

Cooper, bro... I don't know what you have against Shecks but this is the man walked so that modern day fighters in Achaea could run. They are standing on the shoulders of a giant, and that giant is Shecks. It's frankly disgusting that you would treat him this way.

Almost any prominent fighter today that you see like Farrah, Proficy, Archaeon, they all have Shecks to thank for their success when it comes to their ability to track afflictions. Especially those fighters you know of that rely heavily on their automated offences & affliction tracking like @Atalkez. They would be nowhere without him. Let's not pretend none of us know nothing of Godzilla. We can try to pretend that it didn't exist but you can't erase history and you should stop trying to rewrite it.

I know it's a hard pill to swallow for somebody who has been playing the game for as long as you have, I've been there too man. But we need to step aside and let the people who deserve it take some of the credit, now. There's no use gatekeeping somebody as talented as Shecks. We should instead look to his example, and let him lead the way to a brighter future.

Jovolo

Atalkez said:

Shecks said:

Stacked herb eats don't extend herb balance, first of all. 

You eat a magnesium chip.

5967h, 6983m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb- (-10m)

You remove 1 magnesium, bringing the total in the rift to 1355.

5967h, 6983m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You may eat another plant or mineral.

5967h, 6993m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb- (+10m)

Venari has stopped his own heart, killing himself instantly.

5967h, 6993m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You eat a magnesium chip.

5967h, 6993m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You remove 1 magnesium, bringing the total in the rift to 1354.

5967h, 6993m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You eat a magnesium chip.

The mineral has no effect.

5967h, 6993m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You remove 1 magnesium, bringing the total in the rift to 1353.

5967h, 6993m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You eat a magnesium chip.

The mineral has no effect.

5967h, 6983m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb- (-10m)

You remove 1 magnesium, bringing the total in the rift to 1352.

5967h, 6983m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You eat a magnesium chip.

The mineral has no effect.

5967h, 6983m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You remove 1 magnesium, bringing the total in the rift to 1351.

5967h, 6983m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You eat a magnesium chip.

The mineral has no effect.

5967h, 6993m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb- (+10m)

You remove 1 magnesium, bringing the total in the rift to 1350.

5967h, 6993m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You eat a magnesium chip.

The mineral has no effect.

5967h, 6993m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You remove 1 magnesium, bringing the total in the rift to 1349.

5967h, 6993m, 26200e, 29800w cexkdb-

You may eat another plant or mineral.

You been gone a while my man. I know what I'm talking about.

Nice fake log @Atalkez. Where are your timestamps? You can't silence facts and you should stop trying.

Saonji

Jovolo said:

Let's not pretend none of us know nothing of Godzilla. We can try to pretend that it didn't exist but you can't erase history and you should stop trying to rewrite it.

How can you not know about the only Sarapis-approved system in the game's history?

Atalkez

Jovolo said:

Cooper said:

Shecks said:

Don't forget - people said that the first affliction tracker (mine, as it preceded Klendathu's which preceded Austere's AK) wouldn't work too, right before it got cloned and became the new meta.  

Why do you make claims like this? You know that yours wasn't the first affliction tracker.

Dyzanru, Ovid, and Poergh all had working affliction trackers.

Poergh's would dynamically change mid fight with no input from him based on how his opponent previously cured and was currently curing. It also linked up to others using the same system via telnet and could send commands for other people.

Dyzanru's was literally one button that he would just push until he won fights (he didn't use this all the time of course).

You made an affliction tracker, but it was not first, and it was not the best.

Cooper, bro... I don't know what you have against Shecks but this is the man walked so that modern day fighters in Achaea could run. They are standing on the shoulders of a giant, and that giant is Shecks. It's frankly disgusting that you would treat him this way.

Almost any prominent fighter today that you see like Farrah, Proficy, Archaeon, they all have Shecks to thank for their success when it comes to their ability to track afflictions. Especially those fighters you know of that rely heavily on their automated offences & affliction tracking like @Atalkez. They would be nowhere without him. Let's not pretend none of us know nothing of Godzilla. We can try to pretend that it didn't exist but you can't erase history and you should stop trying to rewrite it.

I know it's a hard pill to swallow for somebody who has been playing the game for as long as you have, I've been there too man. But we need to step aside and let the people who deserve it take some of the credit, now. There's no use gatekeeping somebody as talented as Shecks. We should instead look to his example, and let him lead the way to a brighter future.

I have a script that scripts for me.

Amranu

I think Shecks is trying to say if you eat three herbs at once it doesn't increase herb balance time. Which is true.

Archaeon

if you eat three herbs at once, it doesn't effect trackers tho.  it just makes you look really stupid.

Amranu

It does if you do illusion and eat herb on same prompt. This is his point. (And yes, this requires client side curing but it's possible)

Archaeon

decreasing your own momentum just to pretend like you didn't eat for paralysis.... good play.

Amranu

It depends how reliant the opponent is on affliction tracking.

Atalkez

Amranu said:

I think Shecks is trying to say if you eat three herbs at once it doesn't increase herb balance time. Which is true.

I re-read everything and yeah that is what he was trying to say, and he is right about that. It doesn't increase the timer, it's still herb balance timer from the last eat so the only 'loss' is the time it took to send the 5 or 40 eats before that.

I still don't think it would work in general, not to mention how expensive that would get very quickly if you did this often.