Karma gain - Occultist

Qwyrke

Hello. I would like to make the suggestion to create a way to acquire Karma without having to hunt or to have someone hunt for you. The character I would like to play is a scholarly type. Qwyrke is not anti-violence (hunting or combat) but views it as sort of beneath him or as a waste of time. Chaotic Neutral -- as likely to enjoy being attacked as to be angry about it. He is more interested in the study of the environments and creatures of Sapience. While that may involve role-played dissection, I would like for their to be a way to gain Karma without having to kill cultists (or other mobs) or having others kill for me.

Druids and Sylvans, for example, get passive sunlight gain through their groves or by invoking sunlight into their staves. 

For Occultists, I would suggest a STUDY LOCATION modification to allow a once per day (in-game month) gain of Karma buy studying the room one is in. This could be similar to the way plants work (certain amount for the room) or could be specific to the player (not dependent on a standalone regeneration of Karma). This would have the side effect of encouraging exploration regardless of what mobs are there (not just going to the same bashing locations again and again).

Thanks

Ex:
STUDY LOCATION
You look about yourself, searching for secret threads of chaos./Your eyes glaze over and you smile with pleasure as you discover the faint echoes/traces of Chaos in your location./etc.

and if you've already studied the area...

STUDY LOCATION
Try as you might, nothing more can be learned here for now./You sigh with disappointment as you realize that you have already depleted the Karma from this area./etc.

Also, the ability to DISSECT CORPSE to allow any mob to give Karma, even if a very small amount. This is another way to encourage exploration.

Archaeon

You can get karma from others.

Qwyrke

Further ideas:

Could actually create a system just like plants or minerals but specific to Occultists. KARMA ON shows whisps/threads/glyphs/anomalies/ etc. of Chaos. Amount could be equivalent to plant quantities--abundant, plentiful, sparse, etc.

Or, it could be reskinned fishing. 

This might even encourage adventures to go in groups until they've 'fished' out an area.  

Please just do something different with it. I love the class, but Karma gain annoys me enough to make it so I hardly ever play this character.

Maybe also make the shards that drop from corpses able to contribute to karma, or make a strange ability where adventurers can gain karma instead of experience from hunting mobs (if it must be tied to hunting).

Qwyrke

Archaeon said:

You can get karma from others.

I know. But, it's not uncommon for me to be the only Occultist in my city at a given time. The point is that there is nothing fun about the current system for me (yes, I could play other classes... and I do. This is one of five of my characters), but there is opportunity for it to be. I want my time in Achaea to be enjoyable and not a chore. This is something as basic to the class as eating for young adventurers. You essentially need Karma as an Occultist. Why not make the system more interesting?

Archaeon

I understand that, but the class just got a rework so I don't see it getting anything major like that for a while at least.  I don't think anyone's had an issue with it prior to you.

Qwyrke

Archaeon said:

I understand that, but the class just got a rework so I don't see it getting anything major like that for a while at least. 

It doesn't have to be right away. But, it wouldn't hurt to know that it will be considered. Also, those were combat changes, as far as I can tell. It's a small minority of players that actually engage in combat, but every Occultist needs Karma. I like changes, and just because Occultists already got some, doesn't mean they wouldn't benefit from more.

Archaeon said:

I don't think anyone's had an issue with it prior to you.

 It's also possible that people just don't complain about it. They create the character, play it, get burnt out, then quit. If I've done it, someone else probably has too. And, I've done it.

Saonji

No way you're ever the only Occultist in Ashtan. Like half the city has it multiclassed.

Archaeon is right, nobody has complained because it's a non issue. If you don't do combat then you don't need karma. If you do, you can hunt full karma in literally not even 5 minutes. Even as like a level 50.

Also a ps: It's not a small minority that does combat. You're insane. 

Santar

Asking that the entire game be changed to suit your RP. Sounds like you're off to a great start.

Qwyrke

Saonji said:

No way you're ever the only Occultist in Ashtan. Like half the city has it multiclassed.

Archaeon is right, nobody has complained because it's a non issue. If you don't do combat then you don't need karma. If you do, you can hunt full karma in literally not even 5 minutes. Even as like a level 50.

Also a ps: It's not a small minority that does combat. You're insane. 

Santar said:

Asking that the entire game be changed to suit your RP. Sounds like you're off to a great start.

At least no one was rude about my suggestion. I don't see how this is an unreasonable idea. Other classes have ways of building up their power non-violently. That's all I was asking for (i.e. hardly the "entire game to be changed". One skill of one class and not even the entire skill, and not even changed--added to.).

By the way, Santar, I've been playing for 15 years. What was even the point of your comment? Did it add anything to the conversation or was it merely intended to insult me? (this is a rhetorical question. I already know the answer)

edit: also, this suggestion was really intended for the admins. Maybe they are more interested in hearing suggestions for the game than players are. The fact that they've created adventures and a renown system and forays and improved questing tells me that they are interested in adding ways for adventurers to interact with their world in an interesting and meaningful way. If anyone wants to comment with some actual critical discussion, I'm happy to hear it. If you're just trying to lay down some hits, then, please just keep your opinions to yourself.

Atalkez

This is a quality of life change that, if you can merit through points, is probably best addressed in classleads. Not sure when the next round is expected to be, as we're still waiting on approvals from the last round, but that would be my suggestion. The idea seems mostly fine, though it would make the karma power different from the similar ones elsewhere (devo and necro) which require active things to replenish as well.

Lilu

Sunlight, essence (and I assume devotion) are all passively gained. Slowly, but passively nonetheless. When I played necro/groves using classes I never had to grind for the resource to upkeep classdefs. Granted, that's as a noncom, but there's a definite disparity between those and karma where there's zero passive gain.

Qwyrke

Atalkez said:

This is a quality of life change that, if you can merit through points, is probably best addressed in classleads. Not sure when the next round is expected to be, as we're still waiting on approvals from the last round, but that would be my suggestion. The idea seems mostly fine, though it would make the karma power different from the similar ones elsewhere (devo and necro) which require active things to replenish as well.

Lilu said:

Sunlight, essence (and I assume devotion) are all passively gained. Slowly, but passively nonetheless. When I played necro/groves using classes I never had to grind for the resource to upkeep classdefs. Granted, that's as a noncom, but there's a definite disparity between those and karma where there's zero passive gain.

Thank you! These are nice responses. Yes, from what I can tell you are right, Sunlight, Essence, and Devotion do appear to all have passive gain routes. Are there any other similar energies like these? The other classes I play are Jester, Runewarden, and Druid. Druid has sunlight, but the other two don't rely on a store of energy.

Druid can refill their staves from the passive gain of their groves or real-time during the day, at a health cost, by doing EVOKE SUNLIGHT. This is the only other class I play that uses such mechanics, besides Occultist, I mean.

edit: I have also never submitted a classlead, so I'm really not sure how to do it. Is it through the newsboard in-game? It's something I've just never gotten involved with. Thanks!

Atalkez

Sunlight, Devotion, Karma, and Essence are the only ones that I can think of. Priest also has angel power, but that's not quite in the same realm as the others.

Devotion and Essence both naturally regenerate while Sunlight doesn't, but has a better way to actively regain it. I actually do agree that the Karma regain itself is a bit behind the others, though I think your suggestion isn't the way to combat that. If anything, it probably should get a small regeneration every hour like the others do, alongside the artefacts to increase this benefit.

A Sartanic vambrace:                                          1200 Credits

 - Cut your necromantic essence useage in half!

A bloodsteel chain:                                           5 Mayan Crowns

 - Wearing one of these chains will increase the amount of life essence that the owner recovers.

This effect applies to the daily recovery of life essence (assuming you're in the realms).

A platinum dragon scale:                                      1200 Credits

 - Cut your devotion useage in half!

A chain of burnished gold:                                    5 Mayan Crowns

 - Wearing one of these chains will increase the amount of devotion that the owner recovers. This

effect applies to the daily recovery of devotion (assuming you're in the realms).

A cabalist's cowl:                                            1200 Credits

 - Cut your karma useage in half!

A chain of black iron:                                        5 Mayan Crowns

 - Wearing one of these chains will increase the amount of karma that the owner recovers. This

effect applies to the karma obtained from studying a karmic item.

I think adjusting the non-regeneration vs regeneration would be your best bet, if they are interested in changing it at all. Karma isn't a hard resource to gather, comparative to Devotion and Essence (both require adventure corpses or kills to replenish alongside the hourly regeneration), but I can see the issue if you don't want to be the type of person killing things for their study materials.

Classleads are a special time where anyone can submit class changes, they are announced (ANNOUNCE news in game), and you can use the CLASSLEAD command to see your options. You can do up to 5 yourself

Qwyrke

Atalkez said:

Devotion and Essence both naturally regenerate while Sunlight doesn't, but has a better way to actively regain it. I actually do agree that the Karma regain itself is a bit behind the others, though I think your suggestion isn't the way to combat that. If anything, it probably should get a small regeneration every hour like the others do, alongside the artefacts to increase this benefit.

Yeah, this would be good too. Probably easier, code-wise. Thanks for your feedback, Atalkez!

Santar

Karma today is easier to manage than it has ever been in the history of the game, just fyi.

Qwyrke

Yes, and traveling by planes, trains, and automobiles is faster, safer, more efficient, and more economical than ever before in history of humankind, but this doesn't mean that we will or should quit improving them. How easy Karma was to maintain in the past compared to the present matters to me not one bit. With all due respect, Santar, I think you are entirely missing the point here. Like I said, I've been playing Achaea for 15 years. I know things are easier now than they've been in the past. If anything, I feel like your comment just supports my suggestion.

If you have legitimate arguments for why this isn't a good idea, I'll hear you, but, stating that it's easier than it was in the past is not one.

Accipiter

I guarantee that if you wander around right now that you will be able to find karma items just laying on the ground. Even if your character thinks it is below them, they still need to put in a minimum amount of effort if they want to use karma, since it is supposed to be extra esoteric knowledge that you have earned.

Qwyrke

Accipiter, did you read my initial suggestion?

Qwyrke said:

For Occultists, I would suggest a STUDY LOCATION modification to allow a once per day (in-game month) gain of Karma buy studying the room one is in. This could be similar to the way plants work (certain amount for the room) or could be specific to the player (not dependent on a standalone regeneration of Karma). This would have the side effect of encouraging exploration regardless of what mobs are there (not just going to the same bashing locations again and again).

Thanks

Ex:
STUDY LOCATION
You look about yourself, searching for secret threads of chaos./Your eyes glaze over and you smile with pleasure as you discover the faint echoes/traces of Chaos in your location./etc.

and if you've already studied the area...

STUDY LOCATION
Try as you might, nothing more can be learned here for now./You sigh with disappointment as you realize that you have already depleted the Karma from this area./etc.

Also, the ability to DISSECT CORPSE to allow any mob to give Karma, even if a very small amount. This is another way to encourage exploration.

This is an active Karma gain suggestion. Going from room to room studying the location. I'm not opposed to effort. That's why I suggested something like this instead of a strictly passive gain. I'm okay with either, but the active route I suggested does sound more interesting to me. 

Alternatively, give the ability to DISSECT CORPSEs to gain Karma. Any corpse. The role-play justification being that the adventurer is gaining knowledge from studying the innards of the corpses. This is better to me from a role-play perspective than gathering 50 Masks of the Beast every day.

To summarize the possible routes I've suggested:

STUDY LOCATION (once per day (rl) karma gain per room--this encourages exploration)
DISSECT CORPSE (any corpse--encourages hunting in all sorts of locations)
STUDY ITEM (any item--this is the least interesting and probably the hardest to code)

I think some of the people posting in this thread are missing the point. This is a suggestion for an additional way to gain Karma for people with non-violent or less violent leanings. It's for better quality of life, better (or additional) flavor, and can coexist with the current system. I'm basing it on the fact that other classes have non-violent or even passive ways to gain their energies for abilities. I don't need to hear what I'm doing wrong or how easy it is compared to the past. I understand how it works and I've heard that it's improved over time--but I didn't play Occultist then, I play one now. And, honestly, a change like this will probably happen in time whether I had suggested it or not. It is, in my opinion, consistent with other changes that have been made in the history of the game to make playing more enjoyable. I can imagine the backlash that must've happened when server-side curing was originally suggested. So, really, I should probably just sit and wait for inevitability. Successful games improve over time, and I don't see how this is, in any way, not an improvement. 

Archaeon

tl;dr 

Accipiter

Qwyrke said:

Accipiter, did you read my initial suggestion?

Qwyrke said:

For Occultists, I would suggest a STUDY LOCATION modification to allow a once per day (in-game month) gain of Karma buy studying the room one is in. This could be similar to the way plants work (certain amount for the room) or could be specific to the player (not dependent on a standalone regeneration of Karma). This would have the side effect of encouraging exploration regardless of what mobs are there (not just going to the same bashing locations again and again).

Thanks

Ex:
STUDY LOCATION
You look about yourself, searching for secret threads of chaos./Your eyes glaze over and you smile with pleasure as you discover the faint echoes/traces of Chaos in your location./etc.

and if you've already studied the area...

STUDY LOCATION
Try as you might, nothing more can be learned here for now./You sigh with disappointment as you realize that you have already depleted the Karma from this area./etc.

Also, the ability to DISSECT CORPSE to allow any mob to give Karma, even if a very small amount. This is another way to encourage exploration.

This is an active Karma gain suggestion. Going from room to room studying the location. I'm not opposed to effort. That's why I suggested something like this instead of a strictly passive gain. I'm okay with either, but the active route I suggested does sound more interesting to me. 

Alternatively, give the ability to DISSECT CORPSEs to gain Karma. Any corpse. The role-play justification being that the adventurer is gaining knowledge from studying the innards of the corpses. This is better to me from a role-play perspective than gathering 50 Masks of the Beast every day.

To summarize the possible routes I've suggested:

STUDY LOCATION (once per day (rl) karma gain per room--this encourages exploration)
DISSECT CORPSE (any corpse--encourages hunting in all sorts of locations)
STUDY ITEM (any item--this is the least interesting and probably the hardest to code)

I think some of the people posting in this thread are missing the point. This is a suggestion for an additional way to gain Karma for people with non-violent or less violent leanings. It's for better quality of life, better (or additional) flavor, and can coexist with the current system. I'm basing it on the fact that other classes have non-violent or even passive ways to gain their energies for abilities. I don't need to hear what I'm doing wrong or how easy it is compared to the past. I understand how it works and I've heard that it's improved over time--but I didn't play Occultist then, I play one now. And, honestly, a change like this will probably happen in time whether I had suggested it or not. It is, in my opinion, consistent with other changes that have been made in the history of the game to make playing more enjoyable. I can imagine the backlash that must've happened when server-side curing was originally suggested. So, really, I should probably just sit and wait for inevitability. Successful games improve over time, and I don't see how this is, in any way, not an improvement. 

I guess I wasn't clear. I was saying that you can already do that. Go around to each place that has a mob that drops karma items and you will find enough to give you 100%. It is functionally identical to your first idea.

Qwyrke

Are there item drops that are not dependent upon killing the mobs (whether I do it or someone else does)?