Wish List - New Achaean Class

24

Comments

  • Kog said:
    Kog said:
    Eril said:
    Antonius said:
    Gallida said:
    Nah. Cyrene needs a more prominent identity beyond "the place you go where you get all the benefits of a city with none of the drawbacks of an alignment" and doesn't have fun classes to attract people to help encourage the building and maintenance of such an identity.
    Hashan built the identity and then got the class (not even a full class, just a different skill on an existing one). Cyrene won't get a factional class until it's a real faction that warrants one.
    Did Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis build their identity, or did their multiple unique classes just come with their cities?
    ....... Well tbcf, Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis weren't just "neutral". "neutral" isnt much of a faction. It still doesn't have as much of a presence as the others do (or should) because... Well, what is Cyrene fighting for? Freedom? What's free about being a class that can only be in one city? Kinda the drawback with the other faction classes, you either stick with them or lose a whole skill.

    Cyrene has been doing more and definitely has drawn the short-stick a bit lately, but still getting an identity and something to fight for (other than "the place you go where you get all the benefits of a city with none of the drawbacks of an alignment", which imo is legit) would then make sense for it to have a factional class. But then it wouldn't be that different from Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis, which... Is against the whole point of Cyrene, isn't it?

    You can't really be both "a place to go with all the city benefits but none of the drawbacks of alignment" and still have an aligned class with a skill you can take away from non-citizens. That is a drawback of alignment (and one of the biggest ones). 
    That's definitely how it is, and a frustration for me OOCly- Cyrene, by the Tables, can pick-and-choose to do pretty much whatever it wants, without having any real 'issue' with it. For instance, the Life Priestess was justified by the Tables, better her than any of the other candidates too. But then Mhaldor is nailing children to stuff, Ashtan is doing who knows what to make those rats happen, etc. etc. and we can just be "it's fine we're neutral".

    In my perfect world, Cyrene throw the Tables onto the ground like we're Moses and starts from scratch. Unfortunately, that's not how it goes, so I'm happy chipping away and trying to improve things where ever, and however, I can. I do wish we could have a fancy class or toy to play with, if just to attract some alts to beef up our raiding crew, but I get why investing dev time in that probably won't happen for a long time.
    Well, if you want to fight against Mhaldor nailing children to stuff and Ashtan having sex with rats, then you wouldn't really be neutral. You'd be the good guys... The Good guys. And we already have one of those.

    Cyrene, currently, is the good-lowercase-g guys. I think they actually use 'neutral-good', but I prefer 'goodish'. I DO think it's close enough to be uncomfortable, but nobody else wants to hop on board the xenophobia bandwagon with me so I'm having to poke at other stuff.
    Well cmon, you still might as well be a simplified Targ then. Yes, they are capital G 'Good', but... They're the lowercase g good guys. Protecting the innocents and the land from the forces of Evil and Chaos and any overly-zealous forestals. They're militant, but is that really the only difference between them you want to have? That, and being the smaller, less refined corner child of Targ?
  • Gallida said:
    There's a lot of space between Targossas and Cyrene in "intervening in world affairs". Targossas is perfectly willing to do horrible things, up to and including genocide. Cyrene shouldn't.

    Cyrene should hit back when hit but actual Cyrenian war should be saved for things beyond the pale of normal affairs.

    Mhaldor's warring against Moghedu? Eh. Distasteful and wrong, but it's Valnuary and the mhun can defend themselves.

    Mhaldor's lobotomizing mhuns and using them to kill their own kind? Knock knock, Mhaldor. It's Cyrene and you don't have enough worldburn to kill our population of dragons-with-bashing-macros.

    Hashan decides to fight back against the tsol'teth and oust the people responsible for allying with the Underrealm in the first place? Cyrene should be the first ones rushing in to their aid, prior actions be damned.

    I think a decent ethos for Cyrene would be "We have suffered the horrors of genocide and occupation and will not see them repeated--to Cyrene or anywhere else".
    Ok so you guys want to be the police of Sapience? 

    And also, be careful with the genocide bit. Be careful with a lot of bits, because then you guys would be straight up hypocrites. That, or you guys would have a very slow rate of dragons because everyone in sapience commits genocide on an almost daily basis. Every dragon has committed genocide, period. Anyone over level 5 has commited genocide in this game. I'm sure there are more like this you'd have to watch out for, but still.
  • edited July 2020
    If you want to be that reductionist, every city but Cyrene is some bastard version of Mhaldor's "ends justify the means" from 2006ish.

    Also, when the pixies stop respawning like Cyrenian guards did and there's a sad memorial graveyard where they used to be, you can talk about genocide without being facetious.
  • Kog said:
    Kog said:
    Eril said:
    Antonius said:
    Gallida said:
    Nah. Cyrene needs a more prominent identity beyond "the place you go where you get all the benefits of a city with none of the drawbacks of an alignment" and doesn't have fun classes to attract people to help encourage the building and maintenance of such an identity.
    Hashan built the identity and then got the class (not even a full class, just a different skill on an existing one). Cyrene won't get a factional class until it's a real faction that warrants one.
    Did Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis build their identity, or did their multiple unique classes just come with their cities?
    ....... Well tbcf, Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis weren't just "neutral". "neutral" isnt much of a faction. It still doesn't have as much of a presence as the others do (or should) because... Well, what is Cyrene fighting for? Freedom? What's free about being a class that can only be in one city? Kinda the drawback with the other faction classes, you either stick with them or lose a whole skill.

    Cyrene has been doing more and definitely has drawn the short-stick a bit lately, but still getting an identity and something to fight for (other than "the place you go where you get all the benefits of a city with none of the drawbacks of an alignment", which imo is legit) would then make sense for it to have a factional class. But then it wouldn't be that different from Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis, which... Is against the whole point of Cyrene, isn't it?

    You can't really be both "a place to go with all the city benefits but none of the drawbacks of alignment" and still have an aligned class with a skill you can take away from non-citizens. That is a drawback of alignment (and one of the biggest ones). 
    That's definitely how it is, and a frustration for me OOCly- Cyrene, by the Tables, can pick-and-choose to do pretty much whatever it wants, without having any real 'issue' with it. For instance, the Life Priestess was justified by the Tables, better her than any of the other candidates too. But then Mhaldor is nailing children to stuff, Ashtan is doing who knows what to make those rats happen, etc. etc. and we can just be "it's fine we're neutral".

    In my perfect world, Cyrene throw the Tables onto the ground like we're Moses and starts from scratch. Unfortunately, that's not how it goes, so I'm happy chipping away and trying to improve things where ever, and however, I can. I do wish we could have a fancy class or toy to play with, if just to attract some alts to beef up our raiding crew, but I get why investing dev time in that probably won't happen for a long time.
    Well, if you want to fight against Mhaldor nailing children to stuff and Ashtan having sex with rats, then you wouldn't really be neutral. You'd be the good guys... The Good guys. And we already have one of those.

    Cyrene, currently, is the good-lowercase-g guys. I think they actually use 'neutral-good', but I prefer 'goodish'. I DO think it's close enough to be uncomfortable, but nobody else wants to hop on board the xenophobia bandwagon with me so I'm having to poke at other stuff.
    Well cmon, you still might as well be a simplified Targ then. Yes, they are capital G 'Good', but... They're the lowercase g good guys. Protecting the innocents and the land from the forces of Evil and Chaos and any overly-zealous forestals. They're militant, but is that really the only difference between them you want to have? That, and being the smaller, less refined corner child of Targ?
    If you think that's Targ you need to look into Deuc's teachings a little more. They're more nuanced than just "good guys". It just seems like most in Targ currently don't play that relentless "I'll fuck your world up" Good type.

    Jumpy said:
    The membership is already such a good deal that there is no way we can reduce the cost. 

  • edited July 2020
    Gallida said:
    If you want to be that reductionist, every city but Cyrene is some bastard version of Mhaldor's "ends justify the means" from 2006ish.

    Also, when the pixies stop respawning like Cyrenian guards did and there's a sad memorial graveyard where they used to be, you can talk about genocide without being facetious.
    Every city but Cyrene has a real 'end'. Cyrene doesn't. What means need to be justified if your city has no real goal? Why are you guys patrolling the bad guys and stopping them from being too bad? What's the point? 'Because it happened to us' is eh. Workable, but not much potential. 

    And sure, but respawn is OOC. Genocide isn't. In-game, people shouldn't be thinking of them as respawning. At the very least, repopulating from being slaughtered by one person. If that isn't IC genocide, then ok, I recede.


    Iaxus said:
    Kog said:
    Kog said:
    Eril said:
    Antonius said:
    Gallida said:
    Nah. Cyrene needs a more prominent identity beyond "the place you go where you get all the benefits of a city with none of the drawbacks of an alignment" and doesn't have fun classes to attract people to help encourage the building and maintenance of such an identity.
    Hashan built the identity and then got the class (not even a full class, just a different skill on an existing one). Cyrene won't get a factional class until it's a real faction that warrants one.
    Did Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis build their identity, or did their multiple unique classes just come with their cities?
    ....... Well tbcf, Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis weren't just "neutral". "neutral" isnt much of a faction. It still doesn't have as much of a presence as the others do (or should) because... Well, what is Cyrene fighting for? Freedom? What's free about being a class that can only be in one city? Kinda the drawback with the other faction classes, you either stick with them or lose a whole skill.

    Cyrene has been doing more and definitely has drawn the short-stick a bit lately, but still getting an identity and something to fight for (other than "the place you go where you get all the benefits of a city with none of the drawbacks of an alignment", which imo is legit) would then make sense for it to have a factional class. But then it wouldn't be that different from Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis, which... Is against the whole point of Cyrene, isn't it?

    You can't really be both "a place to go with all the city benefits but none of the drawbacks of alignment" and still have an aligned class with a skill you can take away from non-citizens. That is a drawback of alignment (and one of the biggest ones). 
    That's definitely how it is, and a frustration for me OOCly- Cyrene, by the Tables, can pick-and-choose to do pretty much whatever it wants, without having any real 'issue' with it. For instance, the Life Priestess was justified by the Tables, better her than any of the other candidates too. But then Mhaldor is nailing children to stuff, Ashtan is doing who knows what to make those rats happen, etc. etc. and we can just be "it's fine we're neutral".

    In my perfect world, Cyrene throw the Tables onto the ground like we're Moses and starts from scratch. Unfortunately, that's not how it goes, so I'm happy chipping away and trying to improve things where ever, and however, I can. I do wish we could have a fancy class or toy to play with, if just to attract some alts to beef up our raiding crew, but I get why investing dev time in that probably won't happen for a long time.
    Well, if you want to fight against Mhaldor nailing children to stuff and Ashtan having sex with rats, then you wouldn't really be neutral. You'd be the good guys... The Good guys. And we already have one of those.

    Cyrene, currently, is the good-lowercase-g guys. I think they actually use 'neutral-good', but I prefer 'goodish'. I DO think it's close enough to be uncomfortable, but nobody else wants to hop on board the xenophobia bandwagon with me so I'm having to poke at other stuff.
    Well cmon, you still might as well be a simplified Targ then. Yes, they are capital G 'Good', but... They're the lowercase g good guys. Protecting the innocents and the land from the forces of Evil and Chaos and any overly-zealous forestals. They're militant, but is that really the only difference between them you want to have? That, and being the smaller, less refined corner child of Targ?
    If you think that's Targ you need to look into Deuc's teachings a little more. They're more nuanced than just "good guys". It just seems like most in Targ currently don't play that relentless "I'll fuck your world up" Good type.

    Fair enough, I've only looked at the surface level of Targ because no one or thing interested me enough about the city to make me want to learn more. But am I wrong in their protecting innocents and fighting Evil and Chaos? Sure, they're like Gallida said - "the ends justify the means", they'll do what they have to do to protect and see Growth in Creation through Light, Righteousness, and Sacrifice. So Lawful Good, that doesnt make them any less "the good guys of Sapience, who fight to banish the twisted dogmas of Evil and Chaos", does it?
  • Nah, I agree they're the closest we have to a protagonist. But just labeling them as "generic good guy" isn't accurate either, which is what I was saying. 

    Jumpy said:
    The membership is already such a good deal that there is no way we can reduce the cost. 

  • edited July 2020
    At this point Cyrene should thematically realize that every city is capable of posing a threat to its existence, and that it should start trying to cull those threats as necessary. 

    Kind of an incarnation of Order that impedes the rampant spread of Evil, the zealous fires of Good in their protection of Creation, the wildgrowth of Nature, the advancement of uninhibited Progress at all costs, and the oblivion of Chaos.

    But I believe Order was synonymous with Shallam at some point. So, it's probably not plausible at this point.  :/
    "Alas. Alas for Hamlin. The Mayor sent east, west, north, and south. To offer the Piper by word of mouth. Wherever it was men's lot to find him, silver and gold to his heart's content. If only he'd return the way he went."
  • Sure are some good class suggestions you guys are giving.

    Disappearing from Achaea for now. See you, space cowboy.


    smileyface#8048 if you wanna chat.

  • Gallida said:
    I'd agree with smashing the Tables because they're outdated and made of inertia. Cyrene started out as Bant and decided to go full Azorius.

    I know the bureaucracy is bad, but I don't know that I'm prepared to lead the Azorius.

    That said, a lawmage factional class would be pretty neat, not gunna lie.
  • edited July 2020
    How about we do no more factional classes, because they are extremely dumb, and we compromise. A class (don't know what, I'm not a scientist) in which the flavour of the third skill changes, based upon your City.

    Cyrene gets their wyrm?
    Ashtan gets a mini spawn of the wheel
    Targossas gets a.. I dunno. A punch in the mouth? Golden goose?
    Eleusis gets a treant
    Hashan gets a sewer rat, since they love sewers so much, black panther
    Mhaldor gets.. bent? An evil chocobo

    It's the same class that everyone can enjoy, with the same skills so no one gets a to feel as though another City has 'better abilities', and the only thing that changes is the mount/pet/summon that is tied to your specific faction. Would this mean some Cities get more people cause their summon is cooler? Probably, but does Cyrene really need over half the game population?

  • edited July 2020
    Kog said:
    Eril said:
    Antonius said:
    Gallida said:
    Nah. Cyrene needs a more prominent identity beyond "the place you go where you get all the benefits of a city with none of the drawbacks of an alignment" and doesn't have fun classes to attract people to help encourage the building and maintenance of such an identity.
    Hashan built the identity and then got the class (not even a full class, just a different skill on an existing one). Cyrene won't get a factional class until it's a real faction that warrants one.
    Did Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis build their identity, or did their multiple unique classes just come with their cities?
    ....... Well tbcf, Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis weren't just "neutral". "neutral" isnt much of a faction. It still doesn't have as much of a presence as the others do (or should) because... Well, what is Cyrene fighting for? Freedom? What's free about being a class that can only be in one city? Kinda the drawback with the other faction classes, you either stick with them or lose a whole skill.

    Cyrene has been doing more and definitely has drawn the short-stick a bit lately, but still getting an identity and something to fight for (other than "the place you go where you get all the benefits of a city with none of the drawbacks of an alignment", which imo is legit) would then make sense for it to have a factional class. But then it wouldn't be that different from Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis, which... Is against the whole point of Cyrene, isn't it?

    You can't really be both "a place to go with all the city benefits but none of the drawbacks of alignment" and still have an aligned class with a skill you can take away from non-citizens. That is a drawback of alignment (and one of the biggest ones). 
    That's definitely how it is, and a frustration for me OOCly- Cyrene, by the Tables, can pick-and-choose to do pretty much whatever it wants, without having any real 'issue' with it. For instance, the Life Priestess was justified by the Tables, better her than any of the other candidates too. But then Mhaldor is nailing children to stuff, Ashtan is doing who knows what to make those rats happen, etc. etc. and we can just be "it's fine we're neutral".

    In my perfect world, Cyrene throw the Tables onto the ground like we're Moses and starts from scratch. Unfortunately, that's not how it goes, so I'm happy chipping away and trying to improve things where ever, and however, I can. I do wish we could have a fancy class or toy to play with, if just to attract some alts to beef up our raiding crew, but I get why investing dev time in that probably won't happen for a long time.
    I have said many times that the best result of the occupation would have seen the Senate at the time (yes I was on it) stay removed upon return with a provisional government formed to organize the reconstruction, with the Tables gone and a new constitution needing to be made.  Boot the convention and create something new.  Woulda made for a great opportunity.
  • ArchaeonArchaeon Ur mums house lol
    Vhaynna said:
    How about we do no more factional classes, because they are extremely dumb, and we compromise. A class (don't know what, I'm not a scientist) in which the flavour of the third skill changes, based upon your City.

    Cyrene gets their wyrm?
    Ashtan gets a mini spawn of the wheel
    Targossas gets a.. I dunno. A punch in the mouth? Golden goose?
    Eleusis gets a treant
    Hashan gets a sewer rat, since they love sewers so much, black panther
    Mhaldor gets.. bent? An evil chocobo

    It's the same class that everyone can enjoy, with the same skills so no one gets a to feel as though another City has 'better abilities', and the only thing that changes is the mount/pet/summon that is tied to your specific faction. Would this mean some Cities get more people cause their summon is cooler? Probably, but does Cyrene really need over half the game population?

    almost like a falcon or something, weird.
  • edited July 2020
    Kog said:
    Kog said:
    Eril said:
    Antonius said:
    Gallida said:
    Nah. Cyrene needs a more prominent identity beyond "the place you go where you get all the benefits of a city with none of the drawbacks of an alignment" and doesn't have fun classes to attract people to help encourage the building and maintenance of such an identity.
    Hashan built the identity and then got the class (not even a full class, just a different skill on an existing one). Cyrene won't get a factional class until it's a real faction that warrants one.
    Did Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis build their identity, or did their multiple unique classes just come with their cities?
    ....... Well tbcf, Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis weren't just "neutral". "neutral" isnt much of a faction. It still doesn't have as much of a presence as the others do (or should) because... Well, what is Cyrene fighting for? Freedom? What's free about being a class that can only be in one city? Kinda the drawback with the other faction classes, you either stick with them or lose a whole skill.

    Cyrene has been doing more and definitely has drawn the short-stick a bit lately, but still getting an identity and something to fight for (other than "the place you go where you get all the benefits of a city with none of the drawbacks of an alignment", which imo is legit) would then make sense for it to have a factional class. But then it wouldn't be that different from Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis, which... Is against the whole point of Cyrene, isn't it?

    You can't really be both "a place to go with all the city benefits but none of the drawbacks of alignment" and still have an aligned class with a skill you can take away from non-citizens. That is a drawback of alignment (and one of the biggest ones). 
    That's definitely how it is, and a frustration for me OOCly- Cyrene, by the Tables, can pick-and-choose to do pretty much whatever it wants, without having any real 'issue' with it. For instance, the Life Priestess was justified by the Tables, better her than any of the other candidates too. But then Mhaldor is nailing children to stuff, Ashtan is doing who knows what to make those rats happen, etc. etc. and we can just be "it's fine we're neutral".

    In my perfect world, Cyrene throw the Tables onto the ground like we're Moses and starts from scratch. Unfortunately, that's not how it goes, so I'm happy chipping away and trying to improve things where ever, and however, I can. I do wish we could have a fancy class or toy to play with, if just to attract some alts to beef up our raiding crew, but I get why investing dev time in that probably won't happen for a long time.
    Well, if you want to fight against Mhaldor nailing children to stuff and Ashtan having sex with rats, then you wouldn't really be neutral. You'd be the good guys... The Good guys. And we already have one of those.

    Cyrene, currently, is the good-lowercase-g guys. I think they actually use 'neutral-good', but I prefer 'goodish'. I DO think it's close enough to be uncomfortable, but nobody else wants to hop on board the xenophobia bandwagon with me so I'm having to poke at other stuff.
    It is uncomfortable.  Imagine being in my position with Phae and trying to advocate a pro-Creation stance.  Every time I do a sermon I get the “Isn’t that Targ’s thing”.  Ya but we’re the middle ground, not so zealous and violent, but willing to throw down in a scrap when necessary.  Idealogical allies perhaps, but opposing moralities.

    (Edit: for the record, not complaining bout the Order or the ideals of it, just the unfortunate closeness between the “cause” with the Targossians)
  • Eril said:
    Kog said:
    Eril said:
    Antonius said:
    Gallida said:
    Nah. Cyrene needs a more prominent identity beyond "the place you go where you get all the benefits of a city with none of the drawbacks of an alignment" and doesn't have fun classes to attract people to help encourage the building and maintenance of such an identity.
    Hashan built the identity and then got the class (not even a full class, just a different skill on an existing one). Cyrene won't get a factional class until it's a real faction that warrants one.
    Did Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis build their identity, or did their multiple unique classes just come with their cities?
    ....... Well tbcf, Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis weren't just "neutral". "neutral" isnt much of a faction. It still doesn't have as much of a presence as the others do (or should) because... Well, what is Cyrene fighting for? Freedom? What's free about being a class that can only be in one city? Kinda the drawback with the other faction classes, you either stick with them or lose a whole skill.

    Cyrene has been doing more and definitely has drawn the short-stick a bit lately, but still getting an identity and something to fight for (other than "the place you go where you get all the benefits of a city with none of the drawbacks of an alignment", which imo is legit) would then make sense for it to have a factional class. But then it wouldn't be that different from Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis, which... Is against the whole point of Cyrene, isn't it?

    You can't really be both "a place to go with all the city benefits but none of the drawbacks of alignment" and still have an aligned class with a skill you can take away from non-citizens. That is a drawback of alignment (and one of the biggest ones). 
    That's definitely how it is, and a frustration for me OOCly- Cyrene, by the Tables, can pick-and-choose to do pretty much whatever it wants, without having any real 'issue' with it. For instance, the Life Priestess was justified by the Tables, better her than any of the other candidates too. But then Mhaldor is nailing children to stuff, Ashtan is doing who knows what to make those rats happen, etc. etc. and we can just be "it's fine we're neutral".

    In my perfect world, Cyrene throw the Tables onto the ground like we're Moses and starts from scratch. Unfortunately, that's not how it goes, so I'm happy chipping away and trying to improve things where ever, and however, I can. I do wish we could have a fancy class or toy to play with, if just to attract some alts to beef up our raiding crew, but I get why investing dev time in that probably won't happen for a long time.
    I have said many times that the best result of the occupation would have seen the Senate at the time (yes I was on it) stay removed upon return, with the Tables gone and a new constitution needing to be made.  Boot the convention and create something new.  Woulda made for a great opportunity.

    I'm always gunna be a little sorry that you didn't seem interested in actually pushing for this, even if I can fully understand plenty of reasons for it. Gods know I'd have been down with it, and I'm betting we could've gotten a citizen majority at the time, too. Would've made for an absolute mess at the time, but it could've been so cool.

    Mind, I'm happy enough that the Reclamation gave us a push that actually shifted Cyrene's inertia into some sort of movement. I'm as guilty as anyone of having regrets over missed opportunities, but there's not much we couldn't do even now if people wanted to push for it.
  • Eril said:
    Antonius said:
    Gallida said:
    Nah. Cyrene needs a more prominent identity beyond "the place you go where you get all the benefits of a city with none of the drawbacks of an alignment" and doesn't have fun classes to attract people to help encourage the building and maintenance of such an identity.
    Hashan built the identity and then got the class (not even a full class, just a different skill on an existing one). Cyrene won't get a factional class until it's a real faction that warrants one.
    Did Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis build their identity, or did their multiple unique classes just come with their cities?
    ....... Well tbcf, Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis weren't just "neutral". "neutral" isnt much of a faction. It still doesn't have as much of a presence as the others do (or should) because... Well, what is Cyrene fighting for? Freedom? What's free about being a class that can only be in one city? Kinda the drawback with the other faction classes, you either stick with them or lose a whole skill.

    Cyrene has been doing more and definitely has drawn the short-stick a bit lately, but still getting an identity and something to fight for (other than "the place you go where you get all the benefits of a city with none of the drawbacks of an alignment", which imo is legit) would then make sense for it to have a factional class. But then it wouldn't be that different from Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis, which... Is against the whole point of Cyrene, isn't it?

    You can't really be both "a place to go with all the city benefits but none of the drawbacks of alignment" and still have an aligned class with a skill you can take away from non-citizens. That is a drawback of alignment (and one of the biggest ones). 
    Not disagreeing with this, you’re def right, I was just pointing out the complications between the two.  The three I mentioned didn’t really earn their classes and were given them because of the fact their “factions” were the easiest to snag based on irl morality.   That isn’t to say they don’t deserve them, I think they’ve done great work with their factions, but as the directions to run in are chosen it becomes more complicated to select one that stands apart from the rest in a meaningful manner.  I hear a lot that people want to leave their cities and have no where else that appeals to them (yes I’ve had the same thought myself.). The disappointing thing to me that I have tried to consider, is how does Cyrene become the city that is considered an option, and not the city that “is ruled out first of all” and that can’t just be a “ok we raid now” there has to be a reason behind it.
  • edited July 2020
    Keorin said:
    Eril said:
    Kog said:
    Eril said:
    Antonius said:
    Gallida said:
    Nah. Cyrene needs a more prominent identity beyond "the place you go where you get all the benefits of a city with none of the drawbacks of an alignment" and doesn't have fun classes to attract people to help encourage the building and maintenance of such an identity.
    Hashan built the identity and then got the class (not even a full class, just a different skill on an existing one). Cyrene won't get a factional class until it's a real faction that warrants one.
    Did Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis build their identity, or did their multiple unique classes just come with their cities?
    ....... Well tbcf, Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis weren't just "neutral". "neutral" isnt much of a faction. It still doesn't have as much of a presence as the others do (or should) because... Well, what is Cyrene fighting for? Freedom? What's free about being a class that can only be in one city? Kinda the drawback with the other faction classes, you either stick with them or lose a whole skill.

    Cyrene has been doing more and definitely has drawn the short-stick a bit lately, but still getting an identity and something to fight for (other than "the place you go where you get all the benefits of a city with none of the drawbacks of an alignment", which imo is legit) would then make sense for it to have a factional class. But then it wouldn't be that different from Mhaldor, Shallam/Targ, and Eleusis, which... Is against the whole point of Cyrene, isn't it?

    You can't really be both "a place to go with all the city benefits but none of the drawbacks of alignment" and still have an aligned class with a skill you can take away from non-citizens. That is a drawback of alignment (and one of the biggest ones). 
    That's definitely how it is, and a frustration for me OOCly- Cyrene, by the Tables, can pick-and-choose to do pretty much whatever it wants, without having any real 'issue' with it. For instance, the Life Priestess was justified by the Tables, better her than any of the other candidates too. But then Mhaldor is nailing children to stuff, Ashtan is doing who knows what to make those rats happen, etc. etc. and we can just be "it's fine we're neutral".

    In my perfect world, Cyrene throw the Tables onto the ground like we're Moses and starts from scratch. Unfortunately, that's not how it goes, so I'm happy chipping away and trying to improve things where ever, and however, I can. I do wish we could have a fancy class or toy to play with, if just to attract some alts to beef up our raiding crew, but I get why investing dev time in that probably won't happen for a long time.
    I have said many times that the best result of the occupation would have seen the Senate at the time (yes I was on it) stay removed upon return, with the Tables gone and a new constitution needing to be made.  Boot the convention and create something new.  Woulda made for a great opportunity.

    I'm always gunna be a little sorry that you didn't seem interested in actually pushing for this, even if I can fully understand plenty of reasons for it. Gods know I'd have been down with it, and I'm betting we could've gotten a citizen majority at the time, too. Would've made for an absolute mess at the time, but it could've been so cool.

    Mind, I'm happy enough that the Reclamation gave us a push that actually shifted Cyrene's inertia into some sort of movement. I'm as guilty as anyone of having regrets over missed opportunities, but there's not much we couldn't do even now if people wanted to push for it.
    Ya I had a ton of ic issues with pushing for it myself.  I wanted it, but for Eril it would’ve been a calamity, and to be quite frank, there’d been enough drama.  I was ready to get outta dodge and at least clear my position for someone else.

    Besides, 100 ic years was PLENTY for me.
  • edited July 2020
    Thinking it over I have also pondered a summoner class. But I want it to be less ent intensive like what Occultists deal with for their pacts.

    A mixed system of how Achaea handles Metamorphosis/Angel/Baalzadeen abilites.

    You can only use one summon at a time, each summon comes with unique abilities, helps with bashing, and the summons progress in strength and cost the higher up in the skill tree you go. 

    -Fledgling-
    Toad: Stores items for you like a pack, helps you breathe underwater, allows you to leap, and it spews poisonous bubbles at denizens and players.

    Chameleon: Grants you the ability to hide/cloak, gives increased movement speed while in the treetops, it can yank people and items from adjacent rooms with its tongue. It lashes at denizens and players dealing poison damage.

    Fox: Increases your movement speed, casts a reflection/mirage around you, alerts you of enemies nearby, helps you track down people, and it rakes denizens and players with its sharp claws for cutting damage, tripping someone once in awhile underfoot.

    Trans Summons might be a Winged Wyrm you could ride, it has wyrm breath - a much weaker form of dragons breath for adjacent attacks, and it could thrash around in a room breaking either the arm, or the leg of someone at a high equilibrium cost and deals some damage to you for using it.

     I think the class would be a lot of fun. :)
    "Alas. Alas for Hamlin. The Mayor sent east, west, north, and south. To offer the Piper by word of mouth. Wherever it was men's lot to find him, silver and gold to his heart's content. If only he'd return the way he went."
  • So just souped-up Sentinel?
  • Hm.

    The summon is the main attacker, rather than being an affliction pet that just follows you around. Though for the weaker summons that's probably a fair comparison.  =)
    "Alas. Alas for Hamlin. The Mayor sent east, west, north, and south. To offer the Piper by word of mouth. Wherever it was men's lot to find him, silver and gold to his heart's content. If only he'd return the way he went."
  • edited July 2020
    Archaeon said:
    Vhaynna said:
    How about we do no more factional classes, because they are extremely dumb, and we compromise. A class (don't know what, I'm not a scientist) in which the flavour of the third skill changes, based upon your City.

    Cyrene gets their wyrm?
    Ashtan gets a mini spawn of the wheel
    Targossas gets a.. I dunno. A punch in the mouth? Golden goose?
    Eleusis gets a treant
    Hashan gets a sewer rat, since they love sewers so much, black panther
    Mhaldor gets.. bent? An evil chocobo

    It's the same class that everyone can enjoy, with the same skills so no one gets a to feel as though another City has 'better abilities', and the only thing that changes is the mount/pet/summon that is tied to your specific faction. Would this mean some Cities get more people cause their summon is cooler? Probably, but does Cyrene really need over half the game population?

    almost like a falcon or something, weird.
    No, because that's the same kinda of animal. Just different colours and no one cares about that. This would revolve solely around the summon and the use of the summon. Get out of here with your crappy Chivalry.

    This would, hopefuly, be a mountable, that you fight with. Kind of like the ... icewyrms in Imperian. I think it's the Amazon class.

    Edit: Typo
  • Honestly, if they ever did any overhaul to knight, that would make for a pretty awesome change. Remove falcons, add factional mounts. They wouldn't need to do anything more than falcons do right now mechanically (though points if the different abilities get different flavourings), but they'd help knight classes feel a lot more factionally tied, even for those of us without a true factional knight variant.
  • Thematically the way dauntless Ophal fights makes me wish for what I would've hoped for from a class utilising polearms. I still miss hacking people to death with my halberd now they've been removed for however long it's been. Honestly, I'm not too fussed with anything unique or magical, just let me dismember people with a massive polearm!
  • Vhaynna said:
    Archaeon said:
    Vhaynna said:
    How about we do no more factional classes, because they are extremely dumb, and we compromise. A class (don't know what, I'm not a scientist) in which the flavour of the third skill changes, based upon your City.

    Cyrene gets their wyrm?
    Ashtan gets a mini spawn of the wheel
    Targossas gets a.. I dunno. A punch in the mouth? Golden goose?
    Eleusis gets a treant
    Hashan gets a sewer rat, since they love sewers so much, black panther
    Mhaldor gets.. bent? An evil chocobo

    It's the same class that everyone can enjoy, with the same skills so no one gets a to feel as though another City has 'better abilities', and the only thing that changes is the mount/pet/summon that is tied to your specific faction. Would this mean some Cities get more people cause their summon is cooler? Probably, but does Cyrene really need over half the game population?

    almost like a falcon or something, weird.
    No, because that's the same kinda of animal. Just different colours and no one cares about that. This would revolve solely around the summon and the use of the summon. Get out of here with your crappy Chivalry.

    This would, hopefuly, be a mountable, that you fight with. Kind of like the ... icewyrms in Imperian. I think it's the Amazon class.

    Edit: Typo
    Delete falcons, I want my treant mount.
  • Of course an Eleusian wants to mount a tree...

    Disappearing from Achaea for now. See you, space cowboy.


    smileyface#8048 if you wanna chat.

  • Heheheheheh, to the idea Targossas is lawful good, it is lawful neutral at best, though the ideals are lawfl good. There is a nice chunk that looks chaotic neutral or chaotic evil, with all the nonsense going on. I had a talk with one person who could not explain why they were killing people, if you are killing someone for no reason you are not good or even neutral, you are strait up evil.
    Now, back on topic. I have this idea for a sort of warlord class, they would use polearms for their primary fighting skill, and would have a kill path something like dsb. Their other two skills would be command, so they could give boosts to their allies by wisely commanding and guiding the actions of the fighters, and might even be able to allow people to use an off balance attack or something at a high cost to themselves, and the third would be a sort of battlefield control, where they can reinforce ice/stonewalls, move themselves and their groups a bit more quickly, strike people in nearby rooms with their weapon for an extended balance, etc.
  • edited July 2020
    You can guys can wish for anything, and you wish for polearms and pets and a Blu-themed factional class? Y'all need to step up your creativity.

    My ideal class is a deceiver or a trickster, but not in the sleight-of-hand sense that Jester and Serpent are. This character would push metaphysical boundaries between truth and fiction, blending one into the other to suit their purposes. An uncharitable person might derisively call this character a Witch of Deceit, but she knows better; she's convinced herself that she is a Truthmaker.

    The primary offensive skill would be Phantasmagoria, the study of illusions so convincing that they can affect the minds and bodies of those that perceive them. Those unfortunate victims tormented by Phantasms begin to find difficulty discerning where reality ends, a condition that only worsens with time as their barriers of disbelief are torn down. Any brain-addled wielder of Chaos could clumsily crush such a weakened mind, but the Truthmaker prefers a subtler touch; why destroy their sense of reality when she can substitute one of her own making? This final Phantasm takes complete hold as a vision of death so convincing that the victim perishes as if it were real. Because this is a wish list, the Truthmaker would have an avenue to customize the message and deathsight of this final illusion, letting them torment with monsters, spiders, suffocation, falling anvils, or anything else (with oversight) that they can dream up.

    The secondary defensive/utility skill would be Divination, the magic of discerning truth and fiction alike. Discerning truth is simple, every class has abilities to scry, spy, or assess, and those would be present, but not the main draw of the skill. Discerning fiction is where more interesting abilities would lie. Truths can be inconvenient, as the Truthmaker well knows, and she takes great pleasure in convincing herself that those truths are, in fact, falsehoods. Ignoring the inconvenience of afflictions, damage, and even death itself has obvious appeal, but reality cannot be denied forever, so it's far from a permanent solution. The final aspect of Divination would be to predict truths and fictions that have yet to pass, though it's very tricky indeed to determine which is which.

    The final skill is the most powerful of all, and where the Truthmaker really earns her appellation. Paradoxism, the skill of writing minuscule lies in the language of destiny and thereby making them the truth. The mechanical expression of this skill is almost limitless, but no matter what it does, each ability would have something in common; Creation is not defenceless, and tampering with the metaphysics of destiny always creates additional unintended consequences for the one responsible. These consequences are inevitable. Try as she might, the Truthweaver can't erase them, but she can try delaying her doom, pushing it back to buy more time by tampering even more. This reprieve does not come for free, as the more she tampers, the worse the consequences become. What may begin as a moment of bad luck - stubbing her toe, fumbling an attack - can quickly balloon out of control. The reckless or ambitious Truthmaker risks getting herself fried by an improbably localized storm, demolished by a freakishly fast meteor, swallowed by a sudden fissure in the Earth, or simply erased from existence should she tamper so much that destiny must fix itself by writing her out completely. The final and greatest lie, of course, is this very inevitability. Destiny must always get its due, but the Truthmaker understands that guilt is a malleable concept, and destiny can be fooled one final time with a little bit of outside help. Should a scapegoat be present who, for some reason, truly believes that they are the one doomed to suffer, then what is the Truthmaker to do but leave her unlucky collaborator holding the bill?

    I haven't tried to tread on Twilight's toes too terribly, but the concept is probably too similar to be realised in-game now that Hashan has a factional skill.

  • That's a fancy way of saying you want to be a magician. You certainly were creative in your description.  :p
  • yknow, that's cool and all, but 

    I'd rather have a class with Jojo Stands

    Like, what if there's a few different options open to you based on your city and class and whatnot? So like, Mhaldor would get a Necromancy Stand, Ashtan a Chaos stand, Targossas a Devotion Stand, Eleusis a Nature Stand, Hashan a Darkness Stand, and Cyrene a [imsorryidk] Stand. And then you have an Earth, Fire, Water, Air Stand that you also have the option to choose from, or maybe based on your original Dragon color, if that counts. All it affects is flavor, skills and abilities are all exactly the same. 

    And then basically, your Stand enhances your capabilities. Your punches and kicks get strength and speed, you can move faster, do fancy flavor attacks that all focus on making your opponent vulnerable enough for your Stand to "possess" or take over your opponent's body and die in some cool way, or maybe have the kills differ based on the flavor but all take the same vulnerability requirements. 

    Would be some dope roleplay opportunities with your Stand and be a cool class to boot.
  • cyrene's new faction class is just jojo stands of all their fallen brethren
  • edited July 2020
    Okay, against my better judgement I'm gonna post my wishlist that I'd been working on while I was bored, and discussing with a few people here and there. Not all of it's fleshed out, but I figure it's good enough to give a solid idea and understanding as to how it'd all work.

    The Confessor Class. (name shamelessly stolen from my favourite Archeage class, albeit it works entirely differently).
    Too long to actually post in a forums post, without taking up multiple posts.

    My idea was a class which is entirely supportive in nature (including being a great basher!). Yes, it would likely make 2v2/2v3/3v3 (small groups) fights quite skewed, but that is the entire point if they're good. They also have quite lengthy cooldowns (compared to how fastpaced Achaea fights are). See the 'concept' part of the paste.

    In my eyes, one of the biggest reasons a class like this won't happen in Achaea, is because a large swathe of the playerbase wouldn't take very well to the idea of a class being virtually useless when it comes to fighting back on its own. Not lackluster / boring. Useless.

    Disappearing from Achaea for now. See you, space cowboy.


    smileyface#8048 if you wanna chat.

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