War System Changes

Achilles

Shallam used to lose hundreds of thousands of gold each year from guard bashing and room destructions.  @Yen
probably still has records of it and this wasn't even a war, just a bunch of griefers raiding 8+ hours a day.

This is the first iteration of the war system, it will be tweaked as it goes but you have to start somewhere.  

Jinsun

I will never understand the defense of shitty mechanics being "it sucked for us too how dare you argue to fix it." It's like boomers saying "how dare you ask for loan forgiveness, we got buried in debt and so should you." I want whatever is fun for people. I think everyone has made it clear that the new system is wildly unpopular.

Achilles

Jinsun said:

I will never understand the defense of shitty mechanics being "it sucked for us too how dare you argue to fix it." It's like boomers saying "how dare you ask for loan forgiveness, we got buried in debt and so should you." I want whatever is fun for people. I think everyone has made it clear that the new system is wildly unpopular.

You said no one ever lost 2-5 million, that is wildly inaccurate.

The old war system was also dumb (hence no one used it) since it really just encouraged open PK on casuals.  Targ was always the responsible one that didn't set it up as hostile in return to avoid the pissing contest.  Now Ashtan is crying over something they have set as hostile for over a decade.

Micaelis

As an aside, declared hostilities do not affect the cost to decline a war (Nicola just spoke about this). So Ashtan can decline war free of charge, as the actual hostility under ORG RELATIONS HOSTILE is still at the baseline level. 

So the entire argument is pointless.

Kinilan

There is a lot of hyperbole in this thread. Maybe try it first.

Sobriquet

Jinsun said:

Achilles said:

Pretty amusing Ashtan is crying this hard when nothing has even happened yet.  They literally had relations towards Targossas (and before that Shallam) set at hostile for over 10 real life years.  Through broken skills (fk u pit), laughably lopsided combatants, artefacts etc they raided Shallam and Targossas daily for real life years.  

I understand the griefers from Ashtan aren't even logging in anymore (no surprise there, that's how bullies react to adversity) but maybe you all should remember then when the pendulum swings the other way in the future.

Again you're largely speaking to people who have actively not wanted to be a part of that culture for some time and are seeking to dole a punishment far greater than anyone historically or mechanically could have. And stop pretending like Ashtan has always just constantly been a powerhouse or been raiding or that targ is some perceptual victim. We've all had our peaks and valleys. We've all been kicked when we were down by others, but none of us have lost a war to the tune of 2-5 million gold yet. Also if you want a reminder of one of Ashtans low points, I was MoW once :l:lol:

How much has Hashan had to pay over the last RL year with Astan constantly raiding, sometimes 2 or 3 times a RL day, with partial or total guard wipes? There is very little sympathy from the player base to Ashtans recent implosion, although I do feel for those who where not part of it and now picking up the peices. 

There is always a cost to conflict, is the cost in the new system too much? Possibly, time will tell I think. 

Jinsun

Sobriquet said:

Jinsun said:

Achilles said:

Pretty amusing Ashtan is crying this hard when nothing has even happened yet.  They literally had relations towards Targossas (and before that Shallam) set at hostile for over 10 real life years.  Through broken skills (fk u pit), laughably lopsided combatants, artefacts etc they raided Shallam and Targossas daily for real life years.  

I understand the griefers from Ashtan aren't even logging in anymore (no surprise there, that's how bullies react to adversity) but maybe you all should remember then when the pendulum swings the other way in the future.

Again you're largely speaking to people who have actively not wanted to be a part of that culture for some time and are seeking to dole a punishment far greater than anyone historically or mechanically could have. And stop pretending like Ashtan has always just constantly been a powerhouse or been raiding or that targ is some perceptual victim. We've all had our peaks and valleys. We've all been kicked when we were down by others, but none of us have lost a war to the tune of 2-5 million gold yet. Also if you want a reminder of one of Ashtans low points, I was MoW once :l:lol:

How much has Hashan had to pay over the last RL year with Astan constantly raiding, sometimes 2 or 3 times a RL day, with partial or total guard wipes? There is very little sympathy from the player base to Ashtans recent implosion, although I do feel for those who where not part of it and now picking up the peices. 

There is always a cost to conflict, is the cost in the new system too much? Possibly, time will tell I think. 

Based on what I'm seeing it is gonna bear out much less than we predicted but I think you can look to how much you lose on daily raids in gold (which are often returned in kind) then drop a few million on top of that as was pointed out earlier mostly on non coms trying to keep the government running while being open pk and yeah I think it's gonna get overwhelming 

Namino

Again the language in the last few posts is REALLY reinforcing in my head the motivation for war is hurting your opponents rather than benefiting your faction.

All the last posts are referencing how much one side suffered, and saying that other sides should also suffer.

All the context here is focused on what a side has to lose, nothing on what a side has to gain.

Excuse the language, but is the only reason people go to war in Achaea is because they want to hatefuck another faction and make them suffer? The lack of positive gain to be had in war makes me feel like this whole process is contingent on wanting to harvest tears rather than actually producing a tangible benefit for your side.

Jinsun

Two years of peace wooooo @Rackham! 

Vakvyr

Cyrene attempts to step onto the world combat stage and make a name for itself and then gets rewarded with this janky system that encourages going back into relative pacifism.

For me one of the more irritating parts of this is that there have been dozens of war ideas posted on the forums over the past decade and the result is...this?

Sobriquet

Namino said:

Again the language in the last few posts is REALLY reinforcing in my head the motivation for war is hurting your opponents rather than benefiting your faction.

All the last posts are referencing how much one side suffered, and saying that other sides should also suffer.

All the context here is focused on what a side has to lose, nothing on what a side has to gain.

Excuse the language, but is the only reason people go to war in Achaea is because they want to hatefuck another faction and make them suffer? The lack of positive gain to be had in war makes me feel like this whole process is contingent on wanting to harvest tears rather than actually producing a tangible benefit for your side.

This is Achaea combat, yes.  City A will Raid City H to have fun, City H respond in a way which is fun for them, but not for City A. City A then respond with a RL Months long campaign to show them just how unfun it was, blaming the ongoing one sided fun on that initial engagement. They then confirm as much in forum posts.

Replace A and H with other letters, such as M, E or T...

The war system did need looking at but as someone said above it seems to concentrate -more- on what can be lost than can be won. 

Cobault

Namino said:

Excuse the language, but is the only reason people go to war in Achaea is because they want to hatefuck another faction and make them suffer?

You'd honestly be surprised at how many people in this game only have fun or enjoy it when they're shitting on the experience for someone else/a lot of someone else. People canceling wormholes for literally no reason, participating in *gag* shop theft, making malicious and possibly fake logs to mess somebody's reputation up, mass slaughtering non-comms in a war (old system,) just because they can and acting like it's some huge thing to brag about, smudging what feels like 80 totems because no one responded to a raid, sinking a ship just to raise it and sink it again and again to kill someone's crew... man, I could keep going but for real, we've always had a pretty big scoop of sadists in this game running around doing nothing but ruining the game for other people and giggling about it because they have a "they exist for my fun, fuck em" mentality.

Vinzent

Jinsun said:

Two years of peace wooooo @Rackham! 

There will never be peace.

Thaisen

I feel this whole topic can be summed up with some basic economic theory...

People are generally geared toward loss aversion than potential gains. The potential gains need to greatly outweigh the potential losses to flip the scales.

Syae

As a a fairly new adventurer as well as a new solider, I have concerns about this new "War" system that has been implemented. I read all the prior comments everyone has posted as well the Post by the Admin regarding this new system. I'm not claiming to understand everything fully, cause I don't, but from what I gather, each soldiers death has a bearing on said war between whichever cities are involved, collectively. Myself being a new combatant and a new solider would feel horrible if my deaths ended up causing my side (HASHAN) to lose the war and resulting in heavy, heavy fines. Not only does this isolate us younger combatants, it also discourages us not to join the army or even worse leave for fear of retaliation from city-mates because we lack the strength and know how. Another point I would like to make and I hate to say this is, I have to agree with Jinsun. He makes reference to his city of Ashtan as "rebuilding" in which they are as we all well know. We all have seen their city decline in the recent years, lose more people and their strength. What I'm saying is, how it it fair to them to have to pay "war fines" over and over cause they lack the strength to rebuild while the whole of Sapience will be on them with this new "war system"? Targ immediately declared war on them cause they know that most likely they will decline. Not only is that greedy of Targossas, its down right dirty. 

Pyori

Cobault said:

making malicious and possibly fake logs to mess somebody's reputation up

You mean like pickpocketing someone's comm market sale letter, using that log to show you did indeed steal a letter from that person, then writing your own fake letter to try and massively incriminate them as someone who's been helping enemies?

PepeThink

Astarod

I'll preface this with the fact that I am a griefy person. I'll also thank @Nicola @Ictinus and everyone else who held a part in this for giving combat in Achaea some love.. we should NOT forget that this is a step in a direction, even if not forward. I really enjoy changes, and even if there are some bad in this, we should try to be thankful they gave it any attention at all.

My points: 

1. I think city leaders (when deciding to go to war) should be held liable for their decision to do so. If you're not hostile towards another city, you have nothing to worry about. If you are, then you should be held accountable, plain and simple. Maybe I'm biased because of certain city leaders hiding behind better combatants in the past. 

2. If Ashtan feels defenseless right now- ask why, instead of complaining that you don't have anyone. Well, you have Austere. 

3. MORALE is a dumb mechanic that punishes weaker cities. Prove me wrong. 

4. I think visibility needs to be heightened around the following mechanics: MORALE, HOSTILE ACTIONS, etc. If we knew that completing adventures, or doing rituals and shit increased morale to counterbalance pk-imbalance, then maybe it'd be more clear. 

5. I think the whole 'soldiers aren't open pk' is a great idea. I think it's only a good idea paired with a hybrid of @Farrah's idea of a OOCLY daily sanction. This is gonna turn into guard bashing and counter guard bashing, both of which I tend to enjoy, so I'm biased. 

Also, can y'all not type up massive paragraphs and use the indent tech available to make legibility better. I want to understand your points clearly. 

Reyson

Just an idea: 

Tweak infamy so that it doesn't decay on death for the duration of a war, but also only opens you up to the other faction's attacks (and not a third party). That way, you can let your infamy decay naturally by not engaging, but not by starbursting and then dying, once. This gives Cities more targets to attack when trying to force sanctions. 

I also think tweaking it so that on your own City's territory, the infamy gain is equal to what it would be if combatants from the City you're at war with have indemnified you. 

With this, citizens who have attacked the enemy, soldier or not, are more than likely to remain open to PK to the faction they're at war with, while not punishing people who haven't been logged in for fighting, or choose only to defend their home turf, which no one should be punished for, I feel. 

Krizal

For incentive to war, just give us an alternative to foraging for wood by bringing our goblin pillagers in to damage city infrastructure and pilfer wood, if defenders can kill the goblins (+raiders) they get the wood, if raiders can hold out till the goblins get home they get it. Now everyone will flock to raid. :P 

5 million gold isn't a huge cost for a city, so that's unlikely to be the deciding factor in whether or not a city decides to go to war. Whether fighting a particular city in a war will be fun or completely lopsided is another matter.

I agree with Farrah that there's a lack of incentive to participate in the war system unless you're sure you can win, and also no disincentive to just refuse to give sanctions to the enemy if you might lose once war is underway. Though it's also partly on us as players to try to have fun with it rather than just play to win at all costs (even at the expense of our -own- fun, because sitting back refusing to engage is usually the most boring option for all parties). 

Keorin

Realistically speaking, 5 mil isn't a huge cost. But we as players are already -terrible- about accepting the loss of a war or other major conflicts, even when nothing is on the line except bragging rights. I don't really understand how adding a tangible cost to loss on -top- of the pride angle is going to make people more likely to want to take part and lose.

Cobault

Pyori said:

Cobault said:

making malicious and possibly fake logs to mess somebody's reputation up

You mean like pickpocketing someone's comm market sale letter, using that log to show you did indeed steal a letter from that person, then writing your own fake letter to try and massively incriminate them as someone who's been helping enemies?

PepeThink

Yep! Precisely my point. Some bullshit like that getting pulled can ruin the game for a person.
But to that same end, when you're a condescending and arrogant dickhole that apparently has the Eric Cartman "whateva, whatever, I do whateva I want" mentality, no one will come to your defense when such a blatantly fabricated and bullshit letter is presented for everyone to perceive as factual. Or at least, not a majority. I think in a situation such as this, I'd just shrug and say half the toxicity is gone, now to work on the half that caused it. I feel like we're talking about a very specific case here though, and I can't help but wonder which.

Sothantos

People are bringing up examples of what Ashtan used to do not because they want to fuck Ashtan over 'for revenge', but because they're trying to point out that what's happening isn't actually griefy in the grand scheme of things.

Lenn

Remember when Ashtan killed over a hundred Hashan guards in a single night? I remember.

By the way that was 2.5 million at least in damages, ignoring all the other nights they only managed ten or so, and ignoring all the rooms blown up.

Honestly, Ashtan should start off with maximum hostility toward Hashan after the stuff they pulled.

Sobriquet

Lenn said:

Remember when Ashtan killed over a hundred Hashan guards in a single night? I remember.

By the way that was 2.5 million at least in damages, ignoring all the other nights they only managed ten or so, and ignoring all the rooms blown up.

Honestly, Ashtan should start off with maximum hostility toward Hashan after the stuff they pulled.

....

The City of Ashtan has declared relations with your organisation as NEUTRAL


....

Jinsun

Lenn said:

Remember when Ashtan killed over a hundred Hashan guards in a single night? I remember.

By the way that was 2.5 million at least in damages, ignoring all the other nights they only managed ten or so, and ignoring all the rooms blown up.

Honestly, Ashtan should start off with maximum hostility toward Hashan after the stuff they pulled.

Again, none of those people play, should I start killing you any time we get raided because it's "fair" vengeance?

Sobriquet

None? I've not logged in for about 4 weeks, has Ashtan lost -that- many?

Astarod

Lenn said:

Remember when Ashtan killed over a hundred Hashan guards in a single night? I remember.

By the way that was 2.5 million at least in damages, ignoring all the other nights they only managed ten or so, and ignoring all the rooms blown up.

Honestly, Ashtan should start off with maximum hostility toward Hashan after the stuff they pulled.

 My math came out to 3.0-4.0M in damages tracked from my end.  That was after quite a few significant raids too. I think both cities should be at max hostility for tanking the tank room of one another, regardless. 

Cobault said:

Yep! Precisely my point. Some bullshit like that getting pulled can ruin the game for a person.

But to that same end, when you're a condescending and arrogant dickhole that apparently has the Eric Cartman "whateva, whatever, I do whateva I want" mentality, no one will come to your defense when such a blatantly fabricated and bullshit letter is presented for everyone to perceive as factual. Or at least, not a majority. I think in a situation such as this, I'd just shrug and say half the toxicity is gone, now to work on the half that caused it. I feel like we're talking about a very specific case here though, and I can't help but wonder which.

 Man, you never really got over that, did you?

If you take out everyone who was involved in what happened that created such a hostile environment, you're going to have a qwho of like 3 people. Also, you're not considering that no one cares to defend anything anymore, due to how things turned out. At least it's super obvious it's fake to everyone I'm talking to, though some Ashtani seem to have been legitimately fooled.

Sobriquet said:

None? I've not logged in for about 4 weeks, has Ashtan lost -that- many?

So far, they've lost Penwize, Dunn, and at least 4 others (to inactivity/peacing out). I say four, because I know these are friends who wouldn't want me blabbing about them on forums. 

Seragorn, Tianondria, Dalran, Bail, Pyori have left Ashtan, I'm probably missing a few there, but that's at least 11 people. Not counting myself, who was ousted at the beginning of this under the Truax ascendancy by Lii. Apsethus was also ousted. 

Overall, that's about 13 people I know, confirmed, who have left Ashtan via peacing out or just straight quitting the city/ousted. I'd say that was a significant hit. 

Kyrra

Ashtan pretty much drove all their best people into quitting the city or quitting the game. The city pretty much deserves what it gets in my perspective. I don’t see the point in complaining it, the Patron encouraged and supported it happening. GG.

The new war system looks pretty awesome to me and I like that it is essentially consequences for people’s actions. What happens when sailing now makes you accountable though I have no idea how that will effect PoM as a seperate organisation. Every action matters and now people have to weigh up if tanking rooms and guard bashing is worth having having their leadership killed for a month.

Gold is just gold. Maybe their should be an option to instead of funnel excess gold from cap into dragon lairs, you can do so into your city coffers. Would probably give a few folks a reason to keep hunting once reaching the hard cap. Or you know.. have people actually doing stuff for the city. If I can raise 8 million gold within two weeks for some house task through trade skills and services alone, what are more merchant inclined people capable of to support their city?

Lenn

Jinsun said:

Lenn said:

Remember when Ashtan killed over a hundred Hashan guards in a single night? I remember.

By the way that was 2.5 million at least in damages, ignoring all the other nights they only managed ten or so, and ignoring all the rooms blown up.

Honestly, Ashtan should start off with maximum hostility toward Hashan after the stuff they pulled.

Again, none of those people play, should I start killing you any time we get raided because it's "fair" vengeance?

That's the system the admins put into place, the city being responsible in cases of city-vs-city conflict.

Sucks you let so many Ashtani soldiers raid another city so many times, only for a lot of them to leave in a fit of drama.

But you were Ashtani too when they did it.

Torrent

One system I thought would be good, might be super dumb or not able to be implemented, but it would meet the problems with guards and raiding and that would be an enrage system.

- During a raid/war(?) no guards could be hired.

-After 5 guard deaths the other guards become enrage increases there power (the more guard deaths, the more they hurt).

Downside is that in their rage the coordination is lost leading to longer times summoning them.

This should stop massive guard wipes in off hours, but also stop massive guard use during a raid and should offer more coordination in raids. This may be a stupid idea but should meet some the problems as an alternative.