A Measure of Criticism for the Garden

Ozmatiah

I'm sad that I generally believe most of what is said in this thread, Milabar, Skye, Accipiter.  I can only imagine if we did get a god, it would be short lived again, not only because of things like Andraste the people on the outside that would work against it, but also the people that always magically show up when a god, or their god returns. 

As a player with absolutely no power in Eleusis, none of this really makes me want to stay, and the static portion I mentioned hardly makes me want to login.  (But I still love Pandora and Lyssa)

Rangor

Skye said:

Speaking as someone who's played this game a really long time and spent quite a large portion of it in Eleusis (my time in Eleusis was the longest next to being rogue and included leadership positions):

You'll be surprised at the number of supposedly 'dormant' people (or once-a-weekers) who pop out of the woodwork to vote their friends back into power or start becoming active to reinforce whatever garbage view they originally propagated way back in the day when it looks like things are going to be out of their comfort zone. Especially when it looks like there will be a new god around the corner. 

I would never take 'there aren't that many of the old players around' as some sort of hope spot. They're still there, either playing as someone else or hearing about stuff OOCLY from someone who's still playing.

Votes dont count if you're not active anymore. I can't keep my friends in power. 😭😭😭

Caelan

Skye said:

Speaking as someone who's played this game a really long time and spent quite a large portion of it in Eleusis (my time in Eleusis was the longest next to being rogue and included leadership positions):

You'll be surprised at the number of supposedly 'dormant' people (or once-a-weekers) who pop out of the woodwork to vote their friends back into power or start becoming active to reinforce whatever garbage view they originally propagated way back in the day when it looks like things are going to be out of their comfort zone. Especially when it looks like there will be a new god around the corner. 

I would never take 'there aren't that many of the old players around' as some sort of hope spot. They're still there, either playing as someone else or hearing about stuff OOCLY from someone who's still playing.

Huzzah

Eryl

As someone who has listed the forestal classes and factions as his favorite for 10+ years, I can unequivocally say the only thing that keeps me from actively enjoying and sticking with Eleusis is silliness.  Too much cuddle and fluff, not enough savagery and survival.

Nature could be so much more than what it is. It’s vicious, cut-throat, and takes no shit. Until there’s a village-wide shift to the seriousness of Nature and the impact civilization truly has on Sapience, I don’t think I can stomach the faction.

My super limited understanding based on grapevine gossip is that this was in the direction Gaia and Artemis were going, and it was the ideology that caused the village to revolt against them.  If I am wrong, please correct me so I have accurate information.

That said, I see a lot of potential from the current HELP ELEUSIS and the younger blood coming up. I hope and prey (get it) all the time that this cultural shift is coming, because holy shit would I like to multiclass all three forestal classes x.x

Milabar

Anyone who thinks it's all cuddle and fluff hasn't played in the faction for a while.  While I'm sure there's still your literal tree huggers in thier groves doing what they do, there's been a very, very hard push towards exactly what you mentioned, savagery and survival of the fittest, along with my now, screw every City post, which has started to sink in that I (we) mean just that. 

It's not an easy path, and Myna does a good job balancing the very very much needed shifts with keeping with traditional aspects as well.

Eleusis isn't perfect, but Eleusian villagers are starting to really accept the shifts of what's required and the old passive cuddle buddies are slowly getting told to go elsewhere if they can't handle being of the Tribe.

Andraste started it with a lot of labor and Myna continues it.  I know fixing a lot of what happened during the two Speakers before them and thier "Councils" is going to be a very long and hard road but it's gonna happen

Caelan

Eryl said:

As someone who has listed the forestal classes and factions as his favorite for 10+ years, I can unequivocally say the only thing that keeps me from actively enjoying and sticking with Eleusis is silliness.  Too much cuddle and fluff, not enough savagery and survival.

Nature could be so much more than what it is. It’s vicious, cut-throat, and takes no shit. Until there’s a village-wide shift to the seriousness of Nature and the impact civilization truly has on Sapience, I don’t think I can stomach the faction.

My super limited understanding based on grapevine gossip is that this was in the direction Gaia and Artemis were going, and it was the ideology that caused the village to revolt against them.  If I am wrong, please correct me so I have accurate information.

That said, I see a lot of potential from the current HELP ELEUSIS and the younger blood coming up. I hope and prey (get it) all the time that this cultural shift is coming, because holy shit would I like to multiclass all three forestal classes x.x

Funny story: I tried to implement savagery (along w @Andraste) and got voted out for "causing disruption in the house among novices".  Biggest BS powergrab to make sure nothing actually changes that I have seen in a bit.  Not bitter but it just sucks that 50+ IG years of work got halted so easily.

Eryl

@caelan When, tho?

Ismay

Milabar said:

Anyone who thinks it's all cuddle and fluff hasn't played in the faction for a while.  While I'm sure there's still your literal tree huggers in thier groves doing what they do, there's been a very, very hard push towards exactly what you mentioned, savagery and survival of the fittest, along with my now, screw every City post, which has started to sink in that I (we) mean just that. 

It's not an easy path, and Myna does a good job balancing the very very much needed shifts with keeping with traditional aspects as well.

Eleusis isn't perfect, but Eleusian villagers are starting to really accept the shifts of what's required and the old passive cuddle buddies are slowly getting told to go elsewhere if they can't handle being of the Tribe.

Andraste started it with a lot of labor and Myna continues it.  I know fixing a lot of what happened during the two Speakers before them and thier "Councils" is going to be a very long and hard road but it's gonna happen

I sure hope it works out for y’all. When I was there, I couldn’t stand all the outspoken players who blatantly opposed the Charter, which is supposed to be the core of the ideology there, as far as I know. 

Caelan

Eryl said:

@caelan When, tho?

Would have beeeeennn..   August. 2019.

Tashar

I think just hearing talk of 'running them out' sums up fairly well what the problem in Eleusis probably is. Groups at odds with one another over all sorts of stuff are going to end up at odds with anyone trying to supervise them even more so.

Minifie

Tashar said:

I think just hearing talk of 'running them out' sums up fairly well what the problem in Eleusis probably is. Groups at odds with one another over all sorts of stuff are going to end up at odds with anyone trying to supervise them even more so.

This isn't just an issue in Eleusis, and it's not something that's only been in there or has been there. Every city runs with issues because at the end of the day: This is a game, and people are going to want to do what's fun to them, and if that requires other people, they need to be enticed. Some cities need to get rid of heavy top weight, or chaff. Some need to go through a complete rebuild and restructuring of ideals and direction. Some just go through very long stints of low-population that takes time and energy to create an environment to bring in players to adhere to the org's structure and mindset. Anyone who thinks they know what the "problem" is in any city is deluding themselves, as issues that bubble up to a degree that is felt not only throughout the org, but seeps into strong OOC levels is far more than just "visible issues.". 

Cobault

Lenn said:

Personally, I think org leadership could have a few more tools for the RP side of things, but hopefully this new policy helps too.

This would alleviate a lot of troubles and make the game more immersive, honestly. And it doesn't even have to be on such a broad scale like controlling the guards and every last denizen so much as maybe just giving the org leaders the ability to make certain denizens talk/emote at a minimum, similar to pets. Maybe create one or two new denizens relevant to the org and without letting anyone know, let org leaders take the reins. Baby step them in first, then monitor for anyone doing things incorrectly or abusing the system, then correct or punish accordingly. If all is going smooth, ease back and let things flow. Worst case scenario, an org leader does something way stupid or out of line and admin/Divine can ex machina explode the denizen and the org leader loses their plaything for the City/House/whatever.

Giving a player-run crafter's guild a test run also wouldn't be too far fetched imo. Same concept. Baby steps and training wheels in, then if people (vetted of course,) are doing bad intentionally or can't seem to get it right or whatever, boom, blacklist them. Just provide a super thorough list of "Yes" and "No" and go from there.

Faedwyn

Caelan said:

Eryl said:

As someone who has listed the forestal classes and factions as his favorite for 10+ years, I can unequivocally say the only thing that keeps me from actively enjoying and sticking with Eleusis is silliness.  Too much cuddle and fluff, not enough savagery and survival.

Nature could be so much more than what it is. It’s vicious, cut-throat, and takes no shit. Until there’s a village-wide shift to the seriousness of Nature and the impact civilization truly has on Sapience, I don’t think I can stomach the faction.

My super limited understanding based on grapevine gossip is that this was in the direction Gaia and Artemis were going, and it was the ideology that caused the village to revolt against them.  If I am wrong, please correct me so I have accurate information.

That said, I see a lot of potential from the current HELP ELEUSIS and the younger blood coming up. I hope and prey (get it) all the time that this cultural shift is coming, because holy shit would I like to multiclass all three forestal classes x.x

Funny story: I tried to implement savagery (along w @Andraste) and got voted out for "causing disruption in the house among novices".  Biggest BS powergrab to make sure nothing actually changes that I have seen in a bit.  Not bitter but it just sucks that 50+ IG years of work got halted so easily.

The work continues. The leadership change was never about resisting change, but I think you know that. You don't lose an election 10-1 in a "power grab" either.

I think the majority of the 'anti-change' crowd is gone from Eleusis, and I'm glad to see that we're moving in a direction again. My time as Hiero was very frustrating in that regard. Every time we'd start getting some momentum on the military side of things, one of the old-guard isolationists would cause a ruckus and we'd end up losing some of our best fighters over it.

Ysela

While the large extent to which cities are player-driven is a large draw of Achaea, I'm cautiously sceptical of turning city leaders into even more of GM:s/"celani light" than they already are. There is a risk immersion would decrease further for city leaders (having to take even more OOC and meta concerns into account) and there is similarly a risk that admin would need to spend more time on oversight and control (there is a good reason the demands on potential celani are high, in my opinion).

I'm all for increased support for (small or large scale) RP events from admin (especially for organisations without a patron), but not at the expense of organisation leaders' sanity (in both the IC and OOC meaning of the word).

Torinn

I think it would only help things due to actually being able to do stuff and get stuff done.  Mhaldor is a good example where an active Divine has done wonders for the events and roleplay so you likely wouldn't need the same system as others.

Reyson

Torinn said:

I think it would only help things due to actually being able to do stuff and get stuff done.  Mhaldor is a good example where an active Divine has done wonders for the events and roleplay so you likely wouldn't need the same system as others.

It feeds into it, yes. An active God presence inspires people to partake and buy in. 

However, people in Mhaldor also put in a ton of work to make things happen. I can safely say that out of six big events I've run (as in, requiring more than a week of setup, and planning), I've only received admin support with one. Not to say that the admins haven't been great, because they have, for the most part, with supporting things like the Crucible. It still is 95% player effort- the events all had to be written, schedules set, and participation herded by players, and the admins kind of put a cherry on top. A very cool, very memorable cherry, to be sure, and I appreciate them for it. But it's very much a slog from the bottom up. 

Torinn

Oh totally I'm not discounting your efforts at all.  You guys have done so many amazing things.  I'm just pointing out that having more "gm" tools would help out everyone as long as it's got proper checks.

Accipiter

Just wanted to give some appreciation to the admin for looking into the issues raised about the promos and giving more information what you get and stuff, I hope it continues in the future

Caelan

Accipiter said:

Just wanted to give some appreciation to the admin for looking into the issues raised about the promos and giving more information what you get and stuff, I hope it continues in the future

Was coming here to post the same.  That information and level of detail was good tonsee/know going into it.

Jaizsur

Skye said:

Speaking as someone who's played this game a really long time and spent quite a large portion of it in Eleusis (my time in Eleusis was the longest next to being rogue and included leadership positions):

You'll be surprised at the number of supposedly 'dormant' people (or once-a-weekers) who pop out of the woodwork to vote their friends back into power or start becoming active to reinforce whatever garbage view they originally propagated way back in the day when it looks like things are going to be out of their comfort zone. Especially when it looks like there will be a new god around the corner. 

I would never take 'there aren't that many of the old players around' as some sort of hope spot. They're still there, either playing as someone else or hearing about stuff OOCLY from someone who's still playing.

+1

(Am I doing this right?)

Kinilan

Jaizsur said:

Skye said:

Speaking as someone who's played this game a really long time and spent quite a large portion of it in Eleusis (my time in Eleusis was the longest next to being rogue and included leadership positions):

You'll be surprised at the number of supposedly 'dormant' people (or once-a-weekers) who pop out of the woodwork to vote their friends back into power or start becoming active to reinforce whatever garbage view they originally propagated way back in the day when it looks like things are going to be out of their comfort zone. Especially when it looks like there will be a new god around the corner. 

I would never take 'there aren't that many of the old players around' as some sort of hope spot. They're still there, either playing as someone else or hearing about stuff OOCLY from someone who's still playing.

+1

(Am I doing this right?)

No

Mishgul

Kinilan said:

Jaizsur said:

Skye said:

Speaking as someone who's played this game a really long time and spent quite a large portion of it in Eleusis (my time in Eleusis was the longest next to being rogue and included leadership positions):

You'll be surprised at the number of supposedly 'dormant' people (or once-a-weekers) who pop out of the woodwork to vote their friends back into power or start becoming active to reinforce whatever garbage view they originally propagated way back in the day when it looks like things are going to be out of their comfort zone. Especially when it looks like there will be a new god around the corner. 

I would never take 'there aren't that many of the old players around' as some sort of hope spot. They're still there, either playing as someone else or hearing about stuff OOCLY from someone who's still playing.

+1

(Am I doing this right?)

No

Go home

Ainly

Ryx said:

I've had a lot of people tell me not to trust the "higher-ups", that they drove off the gods. That they're still there, and still in power. Probably more than ten people. Basically every non-Eleusian I've interacted with on any serious level.

But the number of old folks still in power is getting smaller and smaller. None of the people who say this ever have the audacity to namedrop, except the name Aelyn. Is Aelyn ruining Eleusis alone? Myna just ruled herself out as dormant at the time, and Milabar wasn't even Eleusian. Maybe behind the scenes, it's Miriew, Ainly, and Danna ruining Eleusis! From my experience in GOAK, perhaps Ainly was the most conservative, and reluctant Hierophant. Maybe he's who everyone talks about, when they say the ambiguous they are still there.

Are you being sarcastic? 

Melodie

Ainly said:

Ryx said:

I've had a lot of people tell me not to trust the "higher-ups", that they drove off the gods. That they're still there, and still in power. Probably more than ten people. Basically every non-Eleusian I've interacted with on any serious level.

But the number of old folks still in power is getting smaller and smaller. None of the people who say this ever have the audacity to namedrop, except the name Aelyn. Is Aelyn ruining Eleusis alone? Myna just ruled herself out as dormant at the time, and Milabar wasn't even Eleusian. Maybe behind the scenes, it's Miriew, Ainly, and Danna ruining Eleusis! From my experience in GOAK, perhaps Ainly was the most conservative, and reluctant Hierophant. Maybe he's who everyone talks about, when they say the ambiguous they are still there.

Are you being sarcastic? 

I admit this gave me the biggest laugh of the week when I read it.

Eril

I will say that I put in quite a bit of effort to draw Eleusis a bit more to Phaestus, and essentially what happened was when I did, the individuals who were very adamant about the constitution of Eleusis and Nature did everything in their power to oppose it instead of changes that would accommodate such a patronage which I thought were very moderate changes (biased I know).  What I was then told by individuals was that the people most fiercely against it, were those least committed to Nature, and generally didn't get involved much except to oppose something they deemed "unsuitable" before crawling back into their dens to sleep.  Did I ever think that Phaestus would become Patron?  Very briefly, and not with a little amount of animosity due to the way Eleusians have historically driven away their patrons.  

There seemed to be some genuine interest from a portion of the population though, and while I doubted Phae would gain patronage after a period, I did think there was a chance for him to become more influential in Eleusis.  That quickly changed when what was perceived as a "Newer, more accommodating option" came along in Pandora.  Essentially what I was told was "She's gonna give us our cake and we can eat it too" by patroning them, not making them change anything, and get out of the way should a Nature divine come along, so died my hopes of Phaestus and Eleusis.

I fully understand Eleusis's frustrations about the patron situation, but I would comment on something Myna said earlier about there being a genuine effort to find a patron for Eleusis.  If you plan to find a patron who will give you everything you want, and not give anything in return to that divine in expectation, you will likely find yourself looking for a very long time.  Divine have their own realms, ambitions and goals.  I'd be REALLY surprised if you find one willing to advance the works of Artemis and Gaia, without some expectation of some form of promotion of their realm in return.

I hope this hasn't come across as me whining about the Phaestus attempt failing!  That's just the way RP works!  These are just my observations and take-aways from my OOC and IC interactions with Eleusis during the exchanges!

Augtavian

Starmourn. The answer to this thread is Starmourn. Not having any divine felt like a boon. Not to mention the admin team over there is the best I have ever seen on an IRE game hands down. Honestly I'd be playing it over Achaea if it had half the playerbase.

Syrennia

Augtavian said:

Not to mention the admin team over there is the best I have ever seen on an IRE game hands down.

Ya but everything else is worse comparatively lmao, even to Achaea.

Kakotas

Lenn said:

Personally, I think org leadership could have a few more tools for the RP side of things, but hopefully this new policy helps too.

I feel like some of the Best RP events I have ever had in the game were centered around letting volunteers gods lead just random things (Pandora taking us through Hades during the original great dream was great fun) (The Te'serra randomly holding a combat tournament with the whole church right after landmarking vs themselves was a riot) (The time Phaestus decided in light of all the crap we were dealing with in shallam  when we won the CTF to come sit at ascending with a giant fountain of alcohol and just encourage us). Little things like this make a huge difference to players. Being able to see an active divine in your alignment is an incredibly powerful thing. I know Trey remembers being allowed to forge his own artefact. I remember just being allowed to sit in the Throne Room or with the Orders dragon, conversing with ents in our househall even if it was them grouching at me to make sure that acolyte cleaned up their form. Those kinds of things are huge.

But I agree some of the best player lead RP I ever had was our house Knighting people. Sure there were a few perks to that system and the quest system was nice (when it worked...) but a lot of the fun of it came from a few of our leaders who had some illusion abilities they spent thousands of credits on to just make it a little better. It's surprising what a few little items and some time spent by leaders along with a few extra abilities can create. I miss those kinds of special moments. I feel like we have lost a lot of them and I don't think it's necessarily the Divines fault as much as it is people being divisive over everything or attempting to metagame shutdown any little thing that doesn't align with their exact view. This applies both to the people who want to tell others what their view should be as well as those who hold to a different view. Some of what made old Achaea great was that consensus was how things worked in game. Not forums consulted or polls. It was made in the moment and discussed in game. And you could agree to disagree. Now obviously there needs to be some guidance (cities going through 200 years of no divine tend to develop all kinds of hard to correct things). but on the whole letting them develop their culture and have nuances they develop as far as RP and ceremony etc are great.

I feel like leaders of orgs could be given a few abilities like that or the ability to petition the creation of a small object that could be hidden for a scavenger hunt type deal that wouldn't involve too much interaction. (Petition creation of some trinket that will sit in the guildhall and have it randomly hidden in the world with 1 sentence notes as clues. Make the leader do it themselves and submit it all so all the volunteer has to do is clear it). I know towards the end of our time as a house this was done a few times and it was amazingly fun. The biggest part of these RP events is they need to be consistent. Like it or not Landmarking and things like that gave the consistency needed for RP to be about more than what you ate for dinner.

maybe I'm old, maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's just the ale talking.