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A Measure of Criticism for the Garden

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  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 2,124 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2019
    I dunno Vastar's been pretty on-point helping with ours. It's a bit rough with some things, since they needed to get escalated to Nicola and co before they can approved, but he's otherwise been amazing. It's resulted in some fun RP with Ezekial, Figia and Zure, too.

    PenwizeUtianima
  • LennLenn Member Posts: 818 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Personally, I think org leadership could have a few more tools for the RP side of things, but hopefully this new policy helps too.
    AndrasteZbacoMercerKakotas
  • DarnyllDarnyll Member Posts: 9
    @Ictinus I stand corrected and will happily let my former disgruntlement drop with a new system. I admit that I have not really kept up with changes in the last year or two, so it was not really fair of me to state it as a fact like I did. For that, I apologize.

    I appreciate the transparency, thank you.
  • SobriquetSobriquet Member Posts: 2,879 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Caelan said:
    A) How the hell did I miss someone leaking a patrons name and role?  Damnit.

    B ) I would not be a good team player for the Divine, but would make one sick ass Gaia. Think hellfire and dire consequences...like a Green Sartan.

    C) Eleusis has the same core that ran other divine off, and they are still actively fighting ANY change brought to Eleusis.  Some now do it through proxies, but they are very much still there.  One saving grace is they seemed to slowly be getting outnumbered.

    D) My biggest beef w the game is what @Sobriquet and @Antidas mentioned.  If I knew I would actually get something from a promo that I wanted (even if cards meant after you buy 10 you get the rare or that I could buy them for gold IG) I would be spending cash.  But when I buy promo spins (because the website said "vastly upgraded prize list") and get 6 consecutive Bound Credits for 11, I feel cheated and makes the game feel like a money grab. Especially when one of the few times I did a free spin I got a rare mineral and the next I got 45 bound credits. Free. 
    I'll have to concede on the point of Achaea being too expensive, seeing as two people have said they've dropped $1700 and $2500 in one go recently but point 4 here is key, coupled with what @Atalkez has said above. 

    (Party): Mezghar says, "Stop."
  • OzmatiahOzmatiah Member Posts: 119 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I guess I just don't alt or metagame enough to know a lot of what was mentioned in this thread. But I know that the realms feel really static without an active patron and a lot of the other points resonate with me.

    Sure I mean I can keep dying to Mhaldor to protect shrines I can't raise, to then  destroy shrines I can't destroy, which isn't really an interesting way to spend the little free time I get in the realms.



    AndrasteMercerSophi
  • AndrasteAndraste Member Posts: 50 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2019
    Torinn said:
    As someone who has been in leadership roles and an Order with a Divine who went inactive, it's amazing when there is someone in that patron role but when they're not everything grinds to a halt.  I understand that we need some oversight to do larger RP things but I sincerely think we as leadership players should have more tools to complete requests without getting admin involved more than "sounds good, get it done and show me when it's done".  It's my genuine belief that it's okay for players in important leadership positions to be able to create and orchestrate events as long as they're approved and accepted by admin, without needing to get volunteers involved in the actual coding and deep writing.  There can be safeties and checks surrounding it but as long as those are met it should be okay because it will not only get things rolling more frequently but also take the burden off of admins or volunteers to always do these things.  If done correctly leaders will be essentially mini-gm's and will draw many people into this game because the barrier to do events is lessened and things happen with more frequency. (Don't need to go full celani and godhood and give up your character.  Let's face it that's really steep).  Not only that but it gives patronless people a way to further their org rp.  Give us the tools to further our stories and take some of the burden off of you guys, you have a lot of other things to do already.
    I was thinking about this as a potential solution. Because so much of Achaea is centralized around garden approval, it makes for a very labor intensive and clunky system when you have item shematics and recipies for furnishing, clothing, cooking, artistry, tailoring, and more all requiring a divine to proofread. On a few occassions I've had it take up to 4-5 in game months for some of these to even be sent back with a request for revisions. We have a physical crafter's guild in delos, why not create a formal player run crafter's org to peer review submissions to take some of the load off of the divine?


    LennLaedhaCeladriel
  • LennLenn Member Posts: 818 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I've been wanting to conquer Delos.
    Prythe
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,542 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2019
    I do kind of wish theyd at least give player run Crafter guild a trial run with a bunch of preselected players. If it crashes and burns then fair, we go back to how it has always worked. But I think it could work, though the Garden would have to create a more concise list of what is and is not suitable. 

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    LaedhaUtianimaCeladrielIsaiah
  • AndrasteAndraste Member Posts: 50 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2019
    Makarios said:
    I'm going to attempt to address each point from the above separately, as there is a lot to go through here. If I miss something feel free to repeat it, I'm going to go broad strokes so something that you specifically want clarified may slip through the cracks.

    On org rp:

    We do agree there is room for improvement here, though. We've spent a good bit of time over the last few weeks working on smoothing out the patron request process (and the new format should benefit those patronless orgs, since they were a bit out in the cold previously). That wouldn't be known to a lot of people since the announcement was posted to the leader board so relevant parties would be sure to see it. This is an ongoing process though, and we're definitely open to ideas. I appreciate the comment regarding a more open dialogue with patrons: perhaps that is something the admin team needs to talk about, since I do tend to agree it facilitates an easier unified direction.

    On Eleusis:

    I'm going to begin by saying that the administration and volunteers want every organisation to succeed. We've all heard the admin bias thrown around, but to be blunt: gods gain nothing from an organisation winning or suffer from them losing. Players gain satisfaction from beating their enemies because that's the foundation for conflict gameplay: but gods aren't players and do not derive any such enjoyment from that aspect of the game, as they do not get to partake in it. Strong orgs means more people invested in playing, and more people invested in playing means Achaea is more successful. Achaea being more successful lets us hire more staff, and more staff lets us improve Achaea easier, etc.

    Concerning the event in question, this was not an admin disdain for Eleusis. The npc pcs in question have a deep loathing for Eleusis due to their ties to their polar opposites, the Tsol'[aa|dasi]. We probably could've made that clearer since its fairly obscure lore, but that's the explanation for that!

    So as promised earlier, I'm going to disclose something since at this point it is a fairly open secret in certain circles as it is. Eleusis was lined up with a new patron some months ago, then the volunteer's former character was leaked along with the full details concerning their upcoming role. The volunteer felt given said information they could not take up the role, and Nicola and I agreed given the context (which is unimportant for the purposes of this discussion). Is that fair for Eleusis? Not at all. But there are attempts to get you a patron, and this is just one reason why we vet Celani so carefully and are so picky about who we select, because if we get it wrong it is the players who tend to suffer for it.

    People can respond here and I'll try to check back, or to me in messages. My presence will be a little sporadic since I'm doing my best to cough up a lung at the moment, so if you want a quick response messages is probably best!

    I want to thank you for addressing the breadth of my concerns, but I do have some further comments, and since you addressed me directly, wanted to take a chance to respond back.

    On org rp:

    I am all for there being improvements to the patron request process, since previous efforts felt like always being passed down the line. From garden, to patron, only to find out that there was no willing or interested party. This lends to a feeling that we are further punished for not being able to somehow field a factional divine from our own ranks which is a part of game meta that 99.9% of people aren't going to even notice until they're in upper leadership. Speaking from my former position at the top, the silence was deafening, and I was generally left to believe that the administration was either disinterested in helping, or maybe acknowledged the problem felt it wasn't their problem to help with. 

    On Eleusis:

    If what you gathered from my original post was that I believe that the admin favor one faction over another, that was not my intention (though i understand that people may have argued that in the past due to personal or perceptual bias). I would argue that while the gods on the whole do not benefit from one faction winning or losing, that IRE and Achaea benefit from the conflict and excitement around those kinds of events. In essence there have to be winners and losers, victories and conflict in order for the game to feel dynamic. My intuition is volunteers are more interested in 'their' faction, simply because it's theirs and it's the one that they have invested in relationships with. My criticism was to point out that some orgs are stronger due to having active divine patronage, and while volunteering for a specific patron makes sense, if you have a divine who is open to being more than one divine, then encouraging them to serve an under served faction provides a greater sense of balance to the game. Having good and consistent divine are required for modeling the type of RP environment each city state should have. Such a lengthy absence for a place like Eleusis means that for a majority of eleusians there is no such RP culture, which makes it further difficult to field candidates who want to continue to push the story forward.

    It is very disappointing that the Village lost the opportunity to have an active patron. While I was made aware of this leak, I more or less dismissed it as hearsay since there had never been an active divine in Eleusis during the entire duration of my time there. Even more disappointing that it is my understanding that someone from an opposing faction who leaked the information to begin with due to their prior ties from when they were a player character. That to me seems like an administratively punishable offense from the outside looking in, and maybe that's already occurred, but metagaming and abuse of seconds continues to be an increasing problem in the game as it pertains to live events and RP.

    Other stuff:

    Based off of feedback I've received about this line of discussion, I've chosen to respond to the other issues related to volunteering and Celani application with the administration directly, but for the record I'm no longer considering application for Celani (nor might I expect to continue to be considered since even talking about it seems to be a no no).
  • DyzanruDyzanru Member Posts: 5 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    1) If I was a volunteer-divine I wouldn't want to patron Eleusis either. The amount of  gross disrespect both Artemis and Gaia received on a daily basis was completely unacceptable. 

    2) I think claiming that the garden tries to "balance" talismans, then limits the number of people who can own them by making everything random, doesn't actually make any sense to me. If you are limiting who can benefit from them, that's the exact opposite of trying to balance them. 

    3) I almost entirely refuse to partake in promos which are random, or a gambol, or a gambol inside a gambol, OR the once in every while gambol inside a gambol inside a gambol. I think this is a pretty irresponsible way to treat such a loyal player base. The promos where you get something when you buy credits (like the giftbags), or you get those humgii tickets with your purchases I'm all for, or even the direct artifact sales, bring them on. But things like globes, stockings, talisman caches where you aren't already buying something that doesn't really exist, you are just buying for a chance that you might get something useful, usually with the promise of "and more." is just kinda messed up.
  • AdrikAdrik Member Posts: 773 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    As a note.

    Globe sales are garbage, until you buy enough. And then they are REALLY good.

    (Enough being 100+)
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 5,040 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Adrik said:
    As a note.

    Globe sales are garbage, until you buy enough. And then they are REALLY good.

    (Enough being 100+)
    This shouldn't really be a surprise to anybody given how the promotions work. A large sample size is how you balance out the probabilities and get (close to) the intended value of the promotion; a lot of low(er) value rewards get balanced out by a few high value ones.

    With a small sample size, you have a tiny chance of getting a massive reward but should expect to get well below the intended value of the promotion.

    The simplest way to change that is to drastically increase the bottom end and decrease the top end rewards. Rather than being able to get rewards between ~10 bound credits and a 500 credit artefact, you'd be looking at say a range of 40-50 credits (either as bound credits or an equivalently valued artefact).

    I think that potentially makes globes/giftbags/etc less appealing. It is the chance of opening a globe for a 500+ credit artefact that provides some of the appeal. There'd probably be no reason to run them over just doing a straight up credit sale.

    Touching on other topics I personally dislike relating to talismans/promotions:

    Everything should have a tradein value. My inventory is full of shit I have no real need for, and that there is no market for, that came from promotions. Give the items an actual value corresponding to their value for the promotion and let us trade it all in if we don't want it.

    Talismans aren't really fun to try to obtain. If they're going to be kept (rather than just selling the items outright as actual artefacts), there are two ways this could be massively improved:

    1. Allow pieces to be converted to any other piece for the same item. If I have two of the same piece, I can switch one of them so I now have two pieces of that item instead.

    2. Allow pieces to be pooled to buy a higher value piece for an item in the same set. If pieces for the lowest value item are 6 credits each, and the pieces for the highest value item are 300 credits each, I should be able to convert 50 of those low value pieces into a single piece for that high value item. This is basically talisman refining but in a reliable way; you input pieces that add up to a set value and then get a guaranteed reward that you actually want from it. The overall credit value gained is the same; it's just one 300 credit piece you actually want rather than 50 6 credit pieces nobody does.

    Some of the tradein values on talisman sets no longer make sense. The almost non-existent redeem value on Death pieces sort of made sense given the promotion they were introduced in (you got the pieces as a bonus for buying credits, if I recall correctly), but doesn't make sense if it's a globes promo with caches that open for Death.

    People shouldn't need to rely on the small talisman market among other players to be able to get a decent reward from the money they've spent.
    Atalkez
  • LennLenn Member Posts: 818 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I wish the talisman market accepted credits.
    Prythe
  • AccipiterAccipiter Member Posts: 829 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    All the non-credit sales also mess up cities and house who use credit sales to shore up funds. It might not be too bad for places like Ashtan which had a million years of whales buying credits, but Hashan is currently scraping the bottom of the barrel and it seems unlikely to change anytime soon.

    A couple of months of credit sales coupled with some of the older talismans sets purchasable with gold would even out the economy for a while and make gambling promos more palatable when they come back up.
  • ErereanErerean Member Posts: 46

    Melodie said:
    I later found out, OOCly, that Eleusians had been hiring Hashani serpents to spy on me, take things I said out loud, and twist them a bit to send anonymous letters to the then-Speaker and leader of the Sylvans (Ravien and Ainia, respectively) in an attempt to see me ousted.

    That's absolutely insane. Not sure if it's true or not, but if it is, that's taking it way too far. Why would somebody go through all that trouble?

    As of 1/17/20.
  • MynaMyna Member Posts: 12 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    edited December 2019
    I feel a need to defend Eleusis just a little. I consistently hear about how poorly Gaia and Artemis were treated by the Village which in large part led to their dormancy. I wonder how long we have to pay penance for the behaviour of some bad actors? I see Eleusis suffused with newcomers who are working so hard for our Village life and it is disappointing to see that they might be paying a price for people who came before them. I was not around for that time, Myna was dormant for a bit and when I started playing again, Gaia and Artemis were gone.  

    People like @Ryx , Valory, @Isaeri , @Eleazar , @Kuz , Silvertorch and many, many others are young people who are making the Village a great place to be. I see a renewal of interest and passion. I understand things went poorly before and I don't argue that, I wasn't there and this seems to be a pretty commonly held opinion. However, I have to question how long we're meant to flagellate before being given another chance? I see a lot of passion and it bothers me that it might go to waste or remain unrewarded beyond what we as player-leaders can do to affirm it.

    JakiroUtianimaCailin
  • MynaMyna Member Posts: 12 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Accipiter said:
    @Myna You get punished until the people who were assholes are no longer the people that are listened to. The next nature god is going to have some knowledge about Eleusis because why would you not at least dabble in forestal RP as a mortal if you are interested enough to do it as a god. If they see the same people around as the last time it happened they aren't going to want to do it.

    It also isn't enough that they are dormant, because we have seen time and again people come back when a god appears, you have to get your new young people into the leadership positions and make sure they are secure enough that any celani can be confident they will be the true leaders and not the old people waking up slipping back to the top.
    This makes little to no sense to me. So we have to wait until...what? We have a lot of new leadership, myself included. We have a lot of young people heading Ministries.  It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy if new passion is driven away by a lack of engagement, leaving behind only those who have been there forever. Eleusis has been engaging with the hunt for a Patron with energy and good faith, and we keenly feel the absence of Gaia and Artemis. 
    Utianima
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,187 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2019
    Ererean said:

    Melodie said:
    I later found out, OOCly, that Eleusians had been hiring Hashani serpents to spy on me, take things I said out loud, and twist them a bit to send anonymous letters to the then-Speaker and leader of the Sylvans (Ravien and Ainia, respectively) in an attempt to see me ousted.

    That's absolutely insane. Not sure if it's true or not, but if it is, that's taking it way too far. Why would somebody go through all that trouble?
    The person who told me was (one of) the Hashani serpent(s), we spoke in an OOC medium, and they basically had no motivation to lie to me, as we don't know each other too well. The letters for sure were real, as I was shown them ICly after they were sent. Ravien and Ainia (who to their credit, not only were up front with me but told me they don't intend to pay them any heed) don't play anymore, of course, so you don't have to believe me, but I have no particular reason to falsify information, as I've not been in Eleusis in over four years now.

    As to why, smear campaigns were fairly common at the time. I was by far not getting the worst of it - Ellodin and Gaia, in particular, got the real brunt. It was a very strong section of the faction that did not want to be told how to play in any fashion, including "x helps define Nature." They wanted things exactly as they wanted them, and any change that deviated from that was hostile and unwelcome.

    Myna said:
    I feel a need to defend Eleusis just a little. I consistently hear about how poorly Gaia and Artemis were treated by the Village which in large part led to their dormancy. I wonder how long we have to pay penance for the behaviour of some bad actors? I see Eleusis suffused with newcomers who are working so hard for our Village life and it is disappointing to see that they might be paying a price for people who came before them. I was not around for that time, Myna was dormant for a bit and when I started playing again, Gaia and Artemis were gone.  

    People like @Ryx , Valory, @Isaeri , @Eleazar , @Kuz , Silvertorch and many, many others are young people who are making the Village a great place to be. I see a renewal of interest and passion. I understand things went poorly before and I don't argue that, I wasn't there and this seems to be a pretty commonly held opinion. However, I have to question how long we're meant to flagellate before being given another chance? I see a lot of passion and it bothers me that it might go to waste or remain unrewarded beyond what we as player-leaders can do to affirm it.

    The post from Accipter covers some good points, but let me add that Makarios has stated y'all got two chances semi-recently for a Patron. One went bad in an OOC manner where a player or series of players leaked information about a volunteer working towards one of the roles and thus tainted the whole process, and the other being the Pandora bit that apparently some IC events shifted to where she went to Ashtan over Eleusis (I have little knowledge of either of these events, so just repeating what has been said). So, it's less that things are being held against you, and more just that opportunities were lost. 

    Myna said:
    I wonder how long we have to pay penance for the behaviour of some bad actors?

    The volunteers choose their roles - there's no "penance" to pay. If you want someone to fill those roles... then you need to make the org engaging and interesting enough for someone to decide that it has more pros than cons. You need to make sure the volunteer would be welcomed, encouraged, appreciated. Doesn't mean you have to agree with every little thing they do, but you do need to make sure that the people who were the root of helping chase off the previous volunteers are gone or sufficiently silenced, and that the rest are given a positive mindset about their patrons, instead of "YOU DON'T DEFINE THE REALM YOU OWN, I DO!" 

    I know I'm making it sound overly dramatic, and yes of course, not everyone was like that. But it was a majority rather than a minority (at the time), and it was very, very, very loud. If you dig through the Eleusis news posts, you can get a small glimpse of the time period.

    I'm also super happy to discuss it with you or any current Eleusis players here or in private, because I would much rather see you guys learn from the past, move forward and succeed, rather than just flail about patronless for the rest of forever. Melodie may have moved on in a rather "burn the bridges behind me" manner, but I, the player of Melodie, absolutely would love to see you guys having a blast. It is a game, after all - that's the point of our ventures here, much as we sometimes argue ourselves in circles. 
    And I love too                                                                          Be still, my indelible friend
    That love soon might end                                                         You are unbreaking
    And be known in its aching                                                      Though quaking
    Shown in this shaking                                                             Though crazy
    Lately of my wasteland, baby                                                 That's just wasteland, baby
  • RyxRyx North of NorthreachMember Posts: 104 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I've had a lot of people tell me not to trust the "higher-ups", that they drove off the gods. That they're still there, and still in power. Probably more than ten people. Basically every non-Eleusian I've interacted with on any serious level.

    But the number of old folks still in power is getting smaller and smaller. None of the people who say this ever have the audacity to namedrop, except the name Aelyn. Is Aelyn ruining Eleusis alone? Myna just ruled herself out as dormant at the time, and Milabar wasn't even Eleusian. Maybe behind the scenes, it's Miriew, Ainly, and Danna ruining Eleusis! From my experience in GOAK, perhaps Ainly was the most conservative, and reluctant Hierophant. Maybe he's who everyone talks about, when they say the ambiguous they are still there.
    Rangor
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,187 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ainly was Mhaldorian until semi-recently. But he's coming home soon. RIGHT @Ainly?! (I'm kidding)
    And I love too                                                                          Be still, my indelible friend
    That love soon might end                                                         You are unbreaking
    And be known in its aching                                                      Though quaking
    Shown in this shaking                                                             Though crazy
    Lately of my wasteland, baby                                                 That's just wasteland, baby
    Ainly
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 3,209 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    This sounds like inherit weaknesses of the democratic leaning city vs theocratic. Theocracies tend to attract less players and require a lot more effort to really build that foundation to keep them going strong, while democratic brings in more players because it's naturally easier to ease into but doesn't have that oversight that a divine gives. Mind, Theocracies really do need that divine oversight, while the democracies can get along without, but are bolstered with them.
  • AccipiterAccipiter Member Posts: 829 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Myna said:
    Accipiter said:
    @Myna You get punished until the people who were assholes are no longer the people that are listened to. The next nature god is going to have some knowledge about Eleusis because why would you not at least dabble in forestal RP as a mortal if you are interested enough to do it as a god. If they see the same people around as the last time it happened they aren't going to want to do it.

    It also isn't enough that they are dormant, because we have seen time and again people come back when a god appears, you have to get your new young people into the leadership positions and make sure they are secure enough that any celani can be confident they will be the true leaders and not the old people waking up slipping back to the top.
    This makes little to no sense to me. So we have to wait until...what? We have a lot of new leadership, myself included. We have a lot of young people heading Ministries.  It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy if new passion is driven away by a lack of engagement, leaving behind only those who have been there forever. Eleusis has been engaging with the hunt for a Patron with energy and good faith, and we keenly feel the absence of Gaia and Artemis. 

    From a metagamey perspective, next time there is a Celani call start doing rituals and stuff to lure the people who get accepted into thinking about you. Make a big ritual about cleansing the taint from Gaia so they know you won't be using it against them in the future and things like that.
    Prythe
  • MilabarMilabar Member Posts: 327 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited December 2019
    I can say with absolute confidence that if a Nature Goddess was to return, there's very very little chance that the theme of a few RL years ago would repeat.

    Regardless of who is still "in power" or not, there enough of us newer faces, secure in our positions, that we'd drown out the "old" faction that caused the original issues.

    I do feel though if either of them returned, they should scrap thier orders, start fresh, and establish from the start thier desire to guide through those that have passion rather then old positions.

    I've never liked the idea of people being able to pop back into the game because ""OMG MY GOD IS BACK"" and expect it all to go back to years ago. 

    Nature has evolved, but we -Eleusian Council- understand that while we're democratic in government we're still secondary in knowledge to Nature compared to the Gods themselves.

    As far as the rest of it, while the holiday season is rough on a lot of us workers, Eleusian culture and community will improve regardless of a Divine, even if we got to pull them kicking and screaming behind us.


    (Edit) I say I'm confident cause as long as I'm Hierophant, the first person that disrespected one of the Nature Gods would get a boot, into somewhere else.  Ain't gonna put up with no dumb shit like that.
    JakiroUtianimaCailin
  • NaminoNamino Member Posts: 295 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Milabar said:

    I've never liked the idea of people being able to pop back into the game because ""OMG MY GOD IS BACK"" and expect it all to go back to years ago. 

    Yeah those people are the worst and should just never come back.
  • MilabarMilabar Member Posts: 327 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Coming back is fine, coming back with expectations of nothing having changed for the God or game is different.

    I've had my share of experience with the second to last the rest of my natural life.
  • TorrentTorrent Member Posts: 320 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Also coming from as an old person who was around when Skye was Eleusian, Minifie was Eleusian, and the travesty of what happened with Artemis and Gaia. It has improved immensely since that time, it's not perfect but it is a lot better in the Divine aspect. No where near as bad as back then, and it was bad and that was from my own personal experience.
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