New race art - Horkval Bard

Beya

Sarapis said:

@Sena No idea. I have an appendix in real life but I couldn't tell you why as it's not used for anything. 

The appendix is vestigial of creatures we were before we were humans. If horkval were descended from humanity, breasts would be vestigial traits.

However, horkval can't be descended from humanity because they are from another plane and were taken to war before the first humans had had their first children.

Thaumas

I refuse to believe in this new canon. Horkvals have no breasts, end of story.

Sena

Beya said:

However, horkval can't be descended from humanity because they are from another plane and were taken to war before the first humans had had their first children.

It is possible though that modern horkval are very different from the original horkval. If the Ulangi horkval (very obviously being insects) are the original race, and player horkval are a sort of hybrid of humans and old horkval (being mostly mammalian with some insect traits), it somewhat works.

Thaumas

That means a human at one point had sex with an insect. Unless of course magic was involved.

Sena

Thaumas said:

That means a human at one point had sex with an insect. Unless of course magic was involved.

Having been a serpent with phase at some point, I don't find this the slightest bit unbelievable. You'd be surprised how many Achaeans have an ovipositor fetish.

Thaumas

At least serpents are vertebrates.

Sarapis

Beya said:

Sarapis said:

@Sena No idea. I have an appendix in real life but I couldn't tell you why as it's not used for anything. 

The appendix is vestigial of creatures we were before we were humans. If horkval were descended from humanity, breasts would be vestigial traits.

However, horkval can't be descended from humanity because they are from another plane and were taken to war before the first humans had had their first children.

I think you'll find that more creatures than just humans have breasts.

Beya

@Sena Races can breed with each other, but it remains that no amount of interbreeding can change your character to be 'more human-like' or 'more rajamalan' based on your parents. That's just not how it works.

All I'm saying is it needs consistency and to stick to its own rules.

Beya

Sarapis said:

...

I think you'll find that more creatures than just humans have breasts.

All of them mammals.

Eilona

So basically, Ulangi Horkval and player Horkval were the same until Sarapis had a picture commissioned by an artist who can't draw a female without boobs, breaking all the conventions players have worked to establish.

Sarapis

No, Horkval always had breasts, as illustrated by the 7-year old picture of Horkval on the site. If players RP'd they didn't, well, they were just incorrect. No offense, but player clans don't define canon.

Anaidiana

Thaumas said:

Those aren't breasts, but extra thick layer of the epicuticle protecting the subesophageal ganglion.

stop enabling him. 

Beya

"Horkval are characterised by armour-like exoskeletons or carapaces in many different colours. They stand taller than most humans, on par with Rajamala and Xoran, but are generally shorter than Trolls. Some have more insectoid features than others, such as mandibles and antennae. Hair, while uncommon, is not unheard of."

This really just looks more like the armour-like exoskeleton. I realise I'm on a hiding to nothing now, but this is the first canon that's appeared in seven years that has said horkval have breasts. I realise you've probably paid for this artwork and don't want to have to pay for it again, but the above list of reasons are why I believe horkval don't, and shouldn't, have breasts.

Sena

Beya said:

@Sena Races can breed with each other, but it remains that no amount of interbreeding can change your character to be 'more human-like' or 'more rajamalan' based on your parents. That's just not how it works.

All I'm saying is it needs consistency and to stick to its own rules.

Except that's exactly how trolls were created, as a hybrid of humans and the Arcanians.

Eilona

Beya said:

This really just looks more like the armour-like exoskeleton.

QFT. I would never have said that they were breasts and neither would the majority of us, if the widely held belief "Horkvals don't have boobs" is anything to go by.

Sarapis

Well, they are part of the armour-like exoskeleton. If you want to consider them 'pecs' instead of 'breasts' that's fine. There are no nipples there, but then, that's the same with the the new picture as well. Both female Horkval have lumps on their chests. What is the issue, exactly?

(Also, I find the obsession with breasts on this thread to be a little weird.)

Sarapis

Sena said:

Beya said:

@Sena Races can breed with each other, but it remains that no amount of interbreeding can change your character to be 'more human-like' or 'more rajamalan' based on your parents. That's just not how it works.

All I'm saying is it needs consistency and to stick to its own rules.

Except that's exactly how trolls were created, as a hybrid of humans and the Arcanians.

Xoran too. Hybrid of Ormyrr and human.

Sena

Sarapis said:

What is the issue, exactly?

(Also, I find the obsession with breasts on this thread to be a little weird.)

I think the problem people have with it is that ignoring racial differences and treating all races as humans with some token non-human trait is pretty common in player descriptions (especially female descriptions), and it annoys a lot of players. The breasts (or whatever you want to call their chest lumps) are just one aspect of that (maybe because it's the easiest to argue against, assuming actual mammalian breasts rather than just lumps in the exoskeleton).

Sarapis

Sena said:

Sarapis said:

What is the issue, exactly?

(Also, I find the obsession with breasts on this thread to be a little weird.)

I think the problem people have with it is that ignoring racial differences and treating all races as humans with some token non-human trait is pretty common in player descriptions (especially female descriptions), and it annoys a lot of players. The breasts (or whatever you want to call their chest lumps) are just one aspect of that (maybe because it's the easiest to argue against, assuming actual mammalian breasts rather than just lumps in the exoskeleton).

Nobody's asking "Why does she seem to have soft lips despite having an exoskeleton?" though. Just boobs. 

Iocun

Fine, remove the lips as well!

Asmodron

Thaumas said:

That means a human at one point had sex with an insect. Unless of course magic was involved.

That is considered strange? Take a look at the creation of the troll race, they are the descendents of human females breeding with the strange creatures Prospero brought to the triumvirate wars.

Also at Xoran, came about through the breeding (albeit forced) of Ormyrr and a female human.

Also dont forget, some of the earliest of humans were very serpentine, some extremely so, why would it be considered strange or "disgusting" to them to mate with a horkval? If anything we can obviously see they had different standards back then :P.

Sarapis

@Asmodron Based years of observation, I can confidently tell you that there is no combination of player races that isn't happy to try to breed with each other.

Asmodron

Sarapis said:

@Asmodron Based years of observation, I can confidently tell you that there is no combination of player races that isn't happy to try to breed with each other.

mmm that Xorani snout. purrr.

Kinilan

Ugh who cares about bug titties?

The real problem is that deck! what terrible captain leaves a million barrels lose on the deck during the storm?  The only thing you leave on the deck of your ship is a combination of ballista darts, starshot and chainshot equaling no more than 250 and every one coated in a highly flammable liquid of suspect origin.

Sylvance

I love OP other than it makes Bard look deceptively good.

Salindera

I was going to take issue with the breasts, then realized I would also have to take issue with breasted homestuck trolls, then realized I'd have to take issues with some huge number of other fantasy races, and then realized that none of this will actually affect how the vast majority of horkvali females describe themselves in game, and then realized that it would be much easier to just roll with whatever explanation shows up.

Also, maybe said organs secrete some sort of honeydew-esque substance, like we've seen on Ulangi? I don't want to thing too much about it, but it would fit.

Draqoom

Or it could just be a fatty deposit that female Horkvals gain on their chest in times when food is scarce or they find themselves seperated from their hive or traveling to make a new hive. They all have the potential to be queens after all!


Like I said before, I like it fine. It represents my race well. I am pleased. ADP doesn't dictate what I've always held as canon, Horkval clans have never said no breasts and if they did they are wrong as Sarapis pointed out.

Sena

Draqoom said:

Or it could just be a fatty deposit that female Horkvals gain on their chest in times when food is scarce or they find themselves seperated from their hive or traveling to make a new hive. They all have the potential to be queens after all!

This is a pretty bad explanation, since it requires multiple further explanations to explain it. "That's just the way the carapace is shaped for females" is better.

Tahquil

I think if we go into the hybridization path for the reasoning it opens the doors for 'I'm half-Rajamalan, Half-Atavian, that's why I'm a human with kitty ears and wings.' RP which is against canon that says ' despite your parents being one thing or the other, you are not half-half of those races and damn because of so much interbreeding of the races you might be a different race entirely.'

Nellaundra

Tahquil said:

I think if we go into the hybridization path for the reasoning it opens the doors for 'I'm half-Rajamalan, Half-Atavian, that's why I'm a human with kitty ears and wings.' RP which is against canon that says ' despite your parents being one thing or the other, you are not half-half of those races and damn because of so much interbreeding of the races you might be a different race entirely.'

This is what I always believed.  I thought that your parents had no baring on your race or your appearance ingame.  A Mhun is a Mhun, a Xoran is a Xoran, a Raja is a Raja even if they all came out of the same Horkval with an Atavian daddy.  They are all their own race and have, for instance, no insectile eyes, no wings, and they don't have any special traits like a carapace or something like that.