which elemental lord?

Leffe

Has there been a discussion somewhere on the differences between the elemental lords (as a class I mean). How do people usually decide which one to go for?

I've found threads on specific abilities, or discussing balance issues, and there is Atalkez's 'curing bible' thread which at least lets me know the general premise. But nothing specifically discussing the pros/cons of each.

Not that I'm ready to go for it yet anyway, but if I were to say that I am a 2H runewarden and would like to make sure what whatever elemental lord I eventually do pick is something that teams like having in group pvp/raids, whether for useful utility or synergy with other classes, what would the suggestions be, and is there already a resource somewhere telling me that sort of stuff?

Brenex

I've done all four lords, these are my thoughts on each in brief summary.

• (Earth) This has the best storyline. It genuinely makes you feel good when you finish the storyline. It also kind of felt like the Aiel from Wheel of Time to me, which was awesome. Over all, best quests and story. Combat wise it's very solid one on one, in teams it's very lackluster sort of in the vein of dual blunt but without the other tools a knight brings. It does have bellow now, which stops people from calling guards? So that's sort of utility, but otherwise it has no real utility. 

• (Air) The air story is more comedic than anything. Which is fine, it's fun to play through but didn't give me that same sense of fulfillment earth did. That being said air is very strong in one on one and also in teams. It has a lot of utility, like blocking earring travel, and giving the three clouds rooms, one of which gives you free fast access to Meropis. The kill path is super easy to understand as well no matter if you're in a group or not. The only thing is it's the squishiest lord, you definitely want tanking arties to enjoy it I feel like. 

• (Fire) The fire story is very militaristic. The first bit is just do x task because you are a recruit, but it quickly gets more interesting, if that's the type of roleplay you enjoy. I'd say this is the lord that hands down needs the most work. It is pure damage, the only afflictions you can give, I believe, are paralysis and sensitivity. Also fire resist is so prevalent, it kind of sputters out against anyone with a lot of health. You have tools to reduce fire resist, but even so I still don't find firelords threatening in duels or anything. Teams is a different matter, as you basically just do damage. The question is are you wanting to just do straight damage with two afflictions? You can, but it always seems kind of weak to me, when you could be a bunch of other classes that contribute more. Preference I suppose. It also gets a raido clone basically, so that utility is neat. 

• (Water) This is what I am currently and is my favorite. The story is kind of a mix of mystery, comedy and well, slaving away cleaning chamberpots. I will warn you, it is the hardest quest chain. I am not joking even a little bit. You will need friends near the end, a lot of them. Combat wise water is the most well rounded in my opinion. It's affliction progressions are very quirky which takes some getting used to, but it shows you with each message what they have and don't have, so it's easy for a new person to code for or keep track of. The confusing bit is that different afflictions build off eachother, so to take full advantage you need to plan out and understand what to hit them with based on what they already have, to give the next few afflictions in the chain. It's different from normal affliction classes in that regard, that certain afflictions are gated behind them already having other things. It's pretty easy to get the hang of them for teams, too. They can push afflictions into a kill or focuslock, can do massive bleeding, or push salves with a limb team. They also get normal beckon and a long range, three to five room depending on arties, line of sight beckon. Top this off with tidalwave for escape, which is basically evade and dash's love child, and it's a super solid team class. The only thing that truly makes them suffer in one on one is no upfront hinder, as paralysis is gated and that's all they have, no clumsiness. But, still an awesome class. Ask if you have any more questions.

  
  

Plak

Leffe said:

Thanks for the great answer Mezghar, and thanks also Brenex for formatting it.
One question about elemental lords and I guess also dragon: are they treated like any other multiclass available, with a long cooldown on switching, or do we get to switch to/from them more often?

No cooldowns and it takes a few seconds to "transform" back and forth.

Mezghar

I've done all four lords, these are my thoughts on each in brief summary. (Earth) This has the best storyline. It genuinely makes you feel good when you finish the storyline. It also kind of felt like the Aiel from Wheel of Time to me, which was awesome. Over all, best quests and story. Combat wise it's very solid one on one, in teams it's very lackluster sort of in the vein of dual blunt but without the other tools a knight brings. It does have bellow now, which stops people from calling guards? So that's sort of utility, but otherwise it has no real utility. (Air) The air story is more comedic than anything. Which is fine, it's fun to play through but didn't give me that same sense of fulfillment earth did. That being said air is very strong in one on one and also in teams. It has a lot of utility, like blocking earring travel, and giving the three clouds rooms, one of which gives you free fast access to Meropis. The kill path is super easy to understand as well no matter if you're in a group or not. The only thing is it's the squishiest lord, you definitely want tanking arties to enjoy it I feel like. (Fire) The fire story is very militaristic. The first bit is just do x task because you are a recruit, but it quickly gets more interesting, if that's the type of roleplay you enjoy. I'd say this is the lord that hands down needs the most work. It is pure damage, the only afflictions you can give, I believe, are paralysis and sensitivity. Also fire resist is so prevalent, it kind of sputters out against anyone with a lot of health. You have tools to reduce fire resist, but even so I still don't find firelords threatening in duels or anything. Teams is a different matter, as you basically just do damage. The question is are you wanting to just do straight damage with two afflictions? You can, but it always seems kind of weak to me, when you could be a bunch of other classes that contribute more. Preference I suppose. It also gets a raido clone basically, so that utility is neat. (Water) This is what I am currently and is my favorite. The story is kind of a mix of mystery, comedy and well, slaving away cleaning chamberpots. I will warn you, it is the hardest quest chain. I am not joking even a little bit. You will need friends near the end, a lot of them. Combat wise water is the most well rounded in my opinion. It's affliction progressions are very quirky which takes some getting used to, but it shows you with each message what they have and don't have, so it's easy for a new person to code for or keep track of. The confusing bit is that different afflictions build off eachother, so to take full advantage you need to plan out and understand what to hit them with based on what they already have, to give the next few afflictions in the chain. It's different from normal affliction classes in that regard, that certain afflictions are gated behind them already having other things. It's pretty easy to get the hang of them for teams, too. They can push afflictions into a kill or focuslock, can do massive bleeding, or push salves with a limb team. They also get normal beckon and a long range, three to five room depending on arties, line of sight beckon. Top this off with tidalwave for escape, which is basically evade and dash's love child, and it's a super solid team class. The only thing that truly makes them suffer in one on one is no upfront hinder, as paralysis is gated and that's all they have, no clumsiness. But, still an awesome class. Ask if you have any more questions.

Shirszae

I know this is not what you are looking for, but I decided based on the fact my character had always favoured water/ice over other elements. As with class, it can be very fun to let your character's personality and the like lead your choice. Even if you end up with something you didnt expect, it can make it all the more fun to play it out.

That being said, maybe I am just lucky that the Element that made the most sense for me was also one of the most awesome ones (Water)

Leffe

Thanks for the great answer Mezghar, and thanks also Brenex for formatting it.
One question about elemental lords and I guess also dragon: are they treated like any other multiclass available, with a long cooldown on switching, or do we get to switch to/from them more often?

Klendathu

You can switch between lesser / elemental / dragon with no cooldown. You can't go from dragon to elemental lord unless you went from elemental lord to dragon (lesserform will take you back to whatever you were before you dragonformed). Changing forms is a channelled action, but only takes a few seconds.

[Deleted User]

Here's @Makarios's answer, when it was asked around the time they were released:

So, just so people can make a bit more of an informed decision if they're struggling:

- Earth lord is basically a pure limb damage class. It's not the fastest but not the slowest. It's also the most defensively focussed of the lords (high mitigation, lots of defensive actives). The offense is relatively simple but the delayed nature of calcify lets you do some fun things, and you get some very powerful team abilities, having probably the best team initiate in the game. Due to the nature of titan you are also probably the scariest lord on your home plane.

- Fire lords are very offensively oriented and an attrition/burst damage class. They're more resource based (though do pressure elixir balance) and gain a lot of their explosive damage from messing with your fire resistance. Their balance times vary a lot, ranging from very fast to pretty slow. If you like traditional affliction stacking this probably isn't the lord for you: its much more based around the brands and resource management, and intelligently making use of primalwill.

- Water lords are a more traditional affliction style based around stacking etc. This is something most of you are probably pretty familiar with already and can work out the basics for without needing much input. They don't truelock - their locking route is strictly focus only. For teams they're very good at control, having some vary situationally strong beckon style abilities. This lord is probably the least "team flashy", but also one of the most impactful if played well in my opinion.

- Air lords is our first smoke focussed affliction offense. It's also different to what most of you have seen before in that it only delivers one affliction per round, but uses relapses and other such things to build stacks. A big challenge here was a lot of our smoke affs are our seriously powerful afflictions (hellsight, aeon) or share a cure (slickness), so the pool of afflictions to work with is very small. Air lord for that reason is very bursty at certain points. That said, a lot of these afflictions are also very weak and lack powerful passive benefits like most herb afflictions do. For teams, this lord has strong mobility aides/limitors. I'll crush some dreams now and mention that while skyhammer is coming destabilise grounding will be unable to function.

Antonius

Klendathu said:

You can switch between lesser / elemental / dragon with no cooldown. You can't go from dragon to elemental lord unless you went from elemental lord to dragon (lesserform will take you back to whatever you were before you dragonformed). Changing forms is a channelled action, but only takes a few seconds.

Interesting definition of "a few". It's not much faster than non-Elder dragonform, and that takes 18 seconds. I think Elemental form is either 14 or 16.

Nazihk

16-18 is just a few seconds when you are comparing it to the 12 hour unmodified class change cooldown.

Klendathu

Antonius said:

Klendathu said:

You can switch between lesser / elemental / dragon with no cooldown. You can't go from dragon to elemental lord unless you went from elemental lord to dragon (lesserform will take you back to whatever you were before you dragonformed). Changing forms is a channelled action, but only takes a few seconds.

Interesting definition of "a few". It's not much faster than non-Elder dragonform, and that takes 18 seconds. I think Elemental form is either 14 or 16.

Sometimes you don't want to finish quickly

Leffe

Thanks heaps for the answers everyone.

I think the most important thing that we all learned is that Klen thinks 16 seconds isn't 'finishing quickly' 

Klendathu

Leffe said:

Thanks heaps for the answers everyone.

I think the most important thing that we all learned is that Klen thinks 16 seconds isn't 'finishing quickly' 

Doesn't matter what I think, it's what the laydees think

Asmodron

Hmm I tend to find it upsetting when people downplay Firelord. It was after a lot of practicing and testing that I discovered the right way to utilize its skills for maximum effect. I personally do not agree that fire resistance is a big issue, as they have several ways to reduce fire resistance. I rarely come across a target that I struggle with damage output.

High health targets are definitely an obstacle, but what burst class doesnt have to deal with that? Again this goes back to resistances.

The class is definitely not perfect but also not as useless as it seems to be implied. I rather enjoy it.

Cooper

When the class was first released it was literally impossible to kill people with artefacts. Now it is barely possible and takes quite a long time.

You saying you don't agree that resistance is an issue is kind of irrelevant, because it is. Same with you not coming across a target you struggle with damage output.

Asmodron

Cooper said:

When the class was first released it was literally impossible to kill people with artefacts. Now it is barely possible and takes quite a long time.

You saying you don't agree that resistance is an issue is kind of irrelevant, because it is. Same with you not coming across a target you struggle with damage output.

As I am one that uses the class fairly often and have gotten several kills, I would say my input for the class does have relevance. I've rarely found a target where indeed it was difficult to set up their health for a Nova. Yes artefacts do help...but when have artefacts not made opponents more difficult to kill?

The class is not without flaw but it is also not useless. It is actually my favorite class to use for groups. 

Edit: If you personally find the class unusable, then I am not going to try and convince you otherwise. I will merely continue to enjoy using it.

Aegoth

Maybe you should try fighting actual combatants before you claim a class is good

[Deleted User]

What competent person have you killed with it, solo?

He's also not saying your input his irrelevant, he said the comments are. Considering it's been shown plenty that Firelord struggles a lot versus tanky people.

Asmodron

Firelord defintely struggles vs tanky individuals, but honestly what burst class doesnt?

Im not going to say I dont have difficulties with artifacted individuals, especially those with full level sip artifacts, but that generally just comes with how artefacts work.

I'm always willing to accept spars to showcase firelord. 

Torinn

I liked it in groups.  Hd to give it up though

Asmodron

Torinn said:

I liked it in groups.  Hd to give it up though

Pyroflare and incandescence are immense fun ^^

Voli

I like water because I can spritz people and it heals them.

[Deleted User]

You're uh. Not really refuting what's being argued. Only confirming exactly what people are saying is an issue, which is: You shouldn't be able to nullify a class just by buying arties.

Asmodron

Pyori said:

You're uh. Not really refuting what's being argued. Only confirming exactly what people are saying is an issue, which is: You shouldn't be able to nullify a class just by buying arties.

hm, I never stated nor implied  that I was unable to use firelord against one that buys arties. I merely said full sip bonus makes it harder and that "what defensive artifacts dont make killing somene harder?".

That's just the case with burst classes and defensive arties though. That beng said, I personally have not found Firelord was unable to make any headway because of arties. Is it harder? Yes. Impossible? Not that I have seen so far.

[Deleted User]

Nullify was perhaps a slight exaggeration. As Cooper said, it's barely possible to kill people who have a bunch of arties. Which is, indeed, a problem that no other damage-related class has. Blademaster runs into it with people who have max mana arties, but that's a different situation entirely.

You don't see shikudo struggling to damage people out. Or depthswalker, druid, magi, sylvan... Difference is, damage is secondary to those classes, whereas it's kinda... Necessary, for Firelord to kill people. It's not "just the case" for literally any other class.

It is a problem.

Minifie

Taryius could put me in kill range at ~ the time it would have taken me to prep 3-4 limbs as DWC, that's with me just standing there, so adding in hinder and a bit of fleeing to recover and I'd easily be able to prep and get a secured kill as infernal.

As serpent I'd easily be able to setup a secured lock before he got me close to dead with my arties. With no defensive arties I'd definitely seal, run, return and try one lock. The difference between full artied defensively and none against firelord is massive, and with any hinder/running you are rarely going to die to Flord.

Taryius

The amount of time it takes a Fire Lord to build up their brand, strip frost, and -hopefully- stick sensitivity and then actually make health progress on artefacted, max resist opponent is way above the time any decent combatant should allow. Add in the fact that Fire Lord's suffer from a terribly bad shield raze, room hinder that is negated by any leap/mountjump or fly ability and I can't imagine ever dying to a Fire Lord 1v1.

But its not -just- artefacts, that hurt too, its insanely harder to fight any class/race/talisman combos that give increased health regen or resistances. Bard with vibes up? Good luck. Grook Regen? Ouch. 

None of this is easy to fix though without making it smash unartied, unresisted people even more than it does so now. Its arguably one of the best classes vs unartied momentum classes, with  a balanceless cure, clumsiness/paralysis on demand and isn't affected by clumsiness. All these are incredibly good when your time to kill actually becomes reasonable.

Groups is fun though.

Solnir

@Asmodron name one whale you've killed as a Fore Lord in 1v1. I've fought/tested against several and have yet to make it to Nova in a decent time. I made it on a test on @Antonius after about 2 and a half minutes with him not fighting back. That's an incredibly long time,and completely unreasonable in a real fight.

Farrah

Pyori said:

Nullify was perhaps a slight exaggeration. As Cooper said, it's barely possible to kill people who have a bunch of arties. Which is, indeed, a problem that no other damage-related class has. Blademaster runs into it with people who have max mana arties, but that's a different situation entirely.

You don't see shikudo struggling to damage people out. Or depthswalker, druid, magi, sylvan... Difference is, damage is secondary to those classes, whereas it's kinda... Necessary, for Firelord to kill people. It's not "just the case" for literally any other class.

It is a problem.

This isn't very important since shikudo isn't really a damage class, but I highly doubt you would find that shikudo can damage out the tankiest people around.

Firelord was terrible before the latest change. I haven't tried it since the change, so I can't really express an opinion. I kind of want to try it though since I have a really hard time believing it's taking two and a half minutes still after the sensi change... 

Solnir

I'll test on you when I get my computer back, Farrah.

[Deleted User]

Farrah said:

Pyori said:

Nullify was perhaps a slight exaggeration. As Cooper said, it's barely possible to kill people who have a bunch of arties. Which is, indeed, a problem that no other damage-related class has. Blademaster runs into it with people who have max mana arties, but that's a different situation entirely.

You don't see shikudo struggling to damage people out. Or depthswalker, druid, magi, sylvan... Difference is, damage is secondary to those classes, whereas it's kinda... Necessary, for Firelord to kill people. It's not "just the case" for literally any other class.

It is a problem.

This isn't very important since shikudo isn't really a damage class, but I highly doubt you would find that shikudo can damage out the tankiest people around.

That uh. Was the point of what I said. It's capable of damaging out tanky people; not the tankiest, but tanky people. And it's a class where damage isn't really a huge factor for their strats, except if you like dry crescent'ing people.