Crusades

Micaelis

The "allow any shrine" part would work for anyone to access? So a non-Order member could get into Nish during a Crusade without the involvement of an Order member?

Makarios

Correct.

Calira

Farrah said:

stuff

You've completely missed my point. I didn't say or imply that Targ cannot lose or that they always win or anything like that. I said that Targ, by virtue of being the strongest faction, always has a chance, even when the other factions bring their best. Losing fights isn't so bad if you had a chance and got outplayed, or if you win more than occasionally too. Losing sucks when you bring your absolute best and get stomped over and over, or when loss is (or at least seems to be) a foregone conclusion most of the time.

Farrah

I'm pretty sure you're the one who missed my point. Every faction goes through periods of being on the bottom - including Targ. We've had times that were hopeless, too. The "game" is to try to change that overtime and become the top.

Individual losses are meaningless when there's practically nothing on the line.

Calira

Farrah said:

I'm pretty sure you're the one who missed my point. Every faction goes through periods of being on the bottom - including Targ. We've had times that were hopeless, too. The "game" is to try to change that overtime and become the top.

Individual losses are meaningless when there's practically nothing on the line.

That does nothing to address the fundamental point that it's simply human nature to loathe losing, and even people with good attitudes will eventually tire of it and stop trying. When Crusades were introduced, Hashan -did- participate in a ton, and got stomped every time. Predictably, interest waned. It's nice to wax poetic about how aversion to consistent loss is a negative attitude, but that doesn't change the fact that it takes an exceptionally great attitude to keep on pushing indefinitely - and to have an entire team of people with this exceptionally great attitude is difficult indeed. I'm not laying blame on Targ for being big and strong and I'm not saying that apathy is the ideal mindset when you're behind, or that things can never change. I'm just pointing out that in the world of realities and not ideals, this is potentially a big reason why Targ doesn't get challenged.

Talamond

I think it'd be fun (and faster) if shards dropped in more than one area at a time.

Mathilda

Talamond's idea, and the shard drops happening every minute, would increase the chance of smaller groups potentially snagging a few shards in the chaos. This would at least allow these smaller groups a way to see a "win", in the sense that an objective was achieved.

Keorin

I wish they'd make shard gathering a shade more like it was during the black wave, myself, where collecting a shard came with an immediate and fun benefit for the person gathering. Obviously giving everyone avatar like during the black wave would be silly, and I don't know what else would work, but at the moment all crusades are is more of the same group combat between the same big players, with a boring collection mini game attached. 

Crusades already happen in a completely separate area, it seems like a perfect opportunity for interesting and fun mechanics that aren't available normally to be worked in.

Solnir

My biggest issue (that hasn't been addressed by Mak already) is the room names. With so many rooms having the same name in Nish, you're practically required to have some sort of travel ability/artefact, or take a chance on "walk to <citymate>" and hope you don't walk through the enemy group. This is exaggerated for non-artefacted players (read: nubs) that could get focused down if they're walking through very quickly and without many/any utility abilities for escaping, and discourages participation, in my opinion.

Alrena

The most fun I had with splinters was during the Black Wave, when you had a chance to snatch a splinter or two when you were literally outnumbered 1 to 10. Sacrificing a good portion of that essence on a special ability to get away with it was an interesting tradeoff. I for one would love to see splinters falling on the main continent again, as it's far more tempting to try and snatch up a single splinter or two that way, especially when you know the area better. That also reduces the huge advantage factions with access to a lot of rezz abilities have versus those that don't. (Mhaldor really doesn't have that many alchemists)

I don't think we need bigger consequences, though. The fight itself and the minor benefits is enough.

Rangor

Nish fights are awesome. Of course Targ gets an edge when they initiate the fight. Pick your own time and coordinate with the people you wanna crusade with and you definitely stand a good chance of doing well. Get up there and go for shards even if you're not the target. Many more opportunities in an ffa than a city VS city contest.

Rangor

To get everyone involved with splinter gathering. Turn it into a.. Touch splinter, shade of evil awakens! Bash it dead for essence shard.

Nazihk

My biggest problem is that I don't benefit from a Crusade at all. The only thing I get out of the crusade is some fighting. That's it. I'm not in an Order, and even if I was in an Order I'm not the Farrah/Tesha/Atalkez/Proficy that would get Avatar out of it. So I get no reward whatsoever from crusading, even when we win.

I feel like a lot of people just don't care about Crusades because of this. For much of the game the only reason to bother with crusades is the fun of combat. If they don't enjoy combat or don't think the fight looks favorable, why bother with it? Even a decisive victory gives them nothing.

To combat this, I think that Crusade miracles should give bonuses to the organizations patroned by the activating god. If more people could benefit from crusades, more people would care about crusades, especially since the shardfall system allows for partial victories where you can gain in resources without necessarily having to win the day. 

Rangor

We can't let it turn into another top dog gets another benefit/boost though. 

Mathilda

If we make it more 'chaotic' (faster shard drops, in more areas at the same time), though, more orders/cities can snipe some essence, so it's not only the top dog that gets the benefit. The most benefit, sure, but the rest can also dip in.

Antonius

I'm not entirely sure about having drops in multiple areas simultaneously. On the one hand, it allows smaller groups (or even individuals) to grab some essence. On the other hand, having the splinters confined to a single area means that everybody is forced to go to that area, and the groups are definitely going to end up fighting.

It's not impossible to grab splinters as it is now if the other groups are busy fighting each other, especially if they do end up halving the time to subvert. Mhaldor did exactly that last night while we were engaging Eleusis.

Ozmatiah

I agree with a lot of what Armali/Mosr/Calira said, it's not that I am against the idea of crusades, and kind of hate getting stomped, but would still try but just currently is no mechanism for Oz to care right now.  I feel that that only real way I could get into an active order would be to go to Mhaldor or Targo(you guys need another Hashani artie-whore right ?).  So with out being in an active order, or an order at all, there is just no driving force to get in there and fight. 

Tying it to Patron's would be a good start. that should spur some of the city pride, and get people involved, but Divine encouragement to do anything always seems to make a huge difference. 

Caelan

Makarios said:

My initial inclinations are:

- Allow any shrine erected within your city to function as an access point to Nishnatoba during crusades. We could make this patron only, but I personally lean towards any shrine as it opens up more potential access points and makes it harder to camp entrances.
- Increase the windup to 24 hours.
- Halve subvert splinter time.
- Make the splinter check happen every minute rather than every five minutes so people are sitting around less.

We've not talked these over at all yet, but this is the direction my thoughts are going in.

@Micaelis @Makarios
- What about instead of Avatar, the pool of essence can be used.  OH can decide if it goes to a boon for the Order (similar to how Eleusis can pick a benefit for the year) or just the avatar.   

-How about similar rewards like 'gain the ability to plant 3 more shrines over current max"?   This may help push the Orders in, while the access point issue is addressed to get more involvement from the Cities.  Make the involvement mean something of substance.   It creates power struggles and negotiating ahead of time; alliances; deal-breakers; repercussions.

- Honestly, you won't find a lot of non-Order members participating because unlike Icons, it has no bearing on them.  Maybe something where the Order can YIELD #### ESSENCE to a city and they get similar rewards?  Build ties and alliances that way as well?  Otherwise, it will be theocracy v theocracy with no one else really giving a shit.

I realize some of that will require a rewrite, but a bandaid will only increase interest in the short term.  

Greys

Well part of what could be done to encourage combat + reduce the time investment when there is not any is this:

Crusade starts.
Master shrine gets attacked.
If after X (thinking 3-5) number of shardfalls, there have been no deaths on Nishanoba (or no deaths of people holding shards if that would be easier to code), shards fall equivalent to Y essence (thinking 20-30k) and then shards stop falling.

This would mean if there is no conflict, there is less of a reward but also less of a time investment for it. Discuss.

Leviticus

Micaelis said:

Armali said:

How doesn't it? Targ comes in, stomps everybody, you lose. It makes perfect sense and explains it perfectly well.

That's a purely hypothetical situation that has literally never happened before, first of all. Secondly, as Frederich so eloquently stated, we've started Crusades multiple times with lesser numbers than many factions. So this idea of "I'm a sissy and I will only start a Crusade that I know I can win" is half the problem here, so that mentality you call "We want to win" is really just "we want to be bored out of our $%#^ing minds".

We purposefully start Crusades, at this point, where we're outnumbered or entirely outmatched since that's the only way to really draw the snowflakes out, it seems. 

This wasn't the case last night. I think it was the point or idea. But Eleusis nor Mhaldor could come up with the numbers during prime time to compete with Targ. That sucks and I feel bad for Targ who just want some fun.

Micaelis

Those of us who do Crusades to fight are going to Crusade anyway, but I think Nazihk/Alrena/Daeir/Whoever else make a fair point that there's no real incentive for the "average" person to participate. Mak's solutions above fix their ability to participate, but I don't think there's a huge throng of people waiting to get involved that can't due to being locked out. So with a fix to access should come a fix to incentive. 

In my mind it could be anything but personally even something small like some sort of RP "flavour" reward would suffice. This may not be worth it to some people so I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts on potential rewards for the average joe that isn't going to get Avatar anytime soon.

Micaelis

Leviticus said:

Micaelis said:

Armali said:

How doesn't it? Targ comes in, stomps everybody, you lose. It makes perfect sense and explains it perfectly well.

That's a purely hypothetical situation that has literally never happened before, first of all. Secondly, as Frederich so eloquently stated, we've started Crusades multiple times with lesser numbers than many factions. So this idea of "I'm a sissy and I will only start a Crusade that I know I can win" is half the problem here, so that mentality you call "We want to win" is really just "we want to be bored out of our $%#^ing minds".

We purposefully start Crusades, at this point, where we're outnumbered or entirely outmatched since that's the only way to really draw the snowflakes out, it seems. 

This wasn't the case last night. I think it was the point or idea. But Eleusis nor Mhaldor could come up with the numbers during prime time to compete with Targ. That sucks and I feel bad for Targ who just want some fun.

I know, but I think there's this idea that we're over here calculating how we can roll over everyone. I talked with Rangor and Proficy specifically before this most recent Crusade to gauge the numbers game and Rangor had like four committed and Proficy had a bit more. I think this has a lot to do with the 3-hour window (hopefully soon to be 24-hour window) and the inability to really get a group ready since you have no idea when they're coming. But, on the other hand, why even bother worrying over assembling a group since the Crusades -really- don't mean anything? I think if you combine the 24-hour window with a real incentive to participate, not just win, you'll see competition on a level that makes it fun for everyone. 

Aegoth

Small things like an effigy bonus, health regen, or even some flavor text for a room description (like order dragons have) for the city can do a lot to get people interested. In that vein, I agree that incentivising essence rewards for cities would make crusades much better, while still retaining the order-only rewards

Leviticus

I still don't understand the whole order thing. I am Mhaldorian. I don't have multiple Gods I can choose to follow. I HAVE to follow Sartan. So I don't understand why it isn't open enrollment into that Order. I don't have any other options... I am trying to complete the quest but it isn't as easy as people think it is. Even the current Sartai don't know who all is in the order. It is a close hold secret or something. It used to piss me off to the point where I was gonna quit Mhaldor. Now that Gods are actually in play again if something doesn't change, I will

Leviticus

Leviticus said:

I still don't understand the whole order thing. I am Mhaldorian. I don't have multiple Gods I can choose to follow. I HAVE to follow Sartan. So I don't understand why it isn't open enrollment into that Order. I don't have any other options... I am trying to complete the quest but it isn't as easy as people think it is. Even the current Sartai don't know who all is in the order. It is a close hold secret or something. It used to piss me off to the point where I was gonna quit Mhaldor. Now that Gods are actually in play again if something doesn't change, I will

That sounds bad. I meant to say I hope something changes since Shrines and Gods play such a vital role now. 

Morthif

Orders aren't for everyone. 

Bronislav

Speaking as a Cyrenian (with a dormant Divine) in a combat House (with a somewhat active-ish Divine?), and as a part of an Order of a dormant Divine, I think I can speak for a significant number of us when I say..

..Meh?

I know that Cyrene isn't the world (even though it should be), but between the multiple Divine that we can follow and the fact that we have zero active Divine that are participating in the city, we have zero incentive to participate in any Crusade, period. Speaking as a part of an Order that has little interest in active combat (despite several of its membership being fairly capable, and despite the dynamic of 'mercenary soldiers' that I actually really like), we have zero incentive to participate in any Crusade beyond the deep and abiding curiosity as to what our deathsights would look like, and our Dragons.

The carrot is too small, and the stick is too big. Making the carrot too big is going to turn this into a, "The powerhouses get ALL OF THE BENEFITS" thing, and making the stick any bigger is going to dissuade the already 'Meh' crowd in small and/or inactive Orders from any pretense of participation. I wish I could offer a reasonable solution beyond, "scrap the whole thing and go back to the drawing board", but even with the improvements that have been mentioned above, the only people benefiting from them are the orders of Lord Sartan, the Bloodsworn, and MAYBE Eleusian Divine on rare occasions (and eventually Ashtani Divine, when its combat juggernauts get active-er).

If that's the only demographic that Crusades are meant to cater to, then it just needs a few minor tweaks to be working as intended. But if it's meant to be like a mini-CTF on an Order-wide scale, then it's going to take a lot more than that to get it where it needs to be.

Leviticus

Morthif said:

Orders aren't for everyone. 

Why can't they be? Especially, with ranks and permissions set correctly. Orders put up/take down shrines, offer essence,spend and hold top secret/noforn/rel to the princess of china meetings... what else do they do? Why can't, especially in a city like Mhaldor, Orders be open to everyone. Like I said before  A LOT has improved with shrines and Gods. Orders have taken a critical role. Some orders have completely fallen to the wayside because one or two people who are there have taken leave from Achaea. I might be biased and ignorant on the matter but if I didn't like PvP as much as I do, I wouldn't join a single Crusade because there is no benefit to me. I also never RP so that doesn't do it for me either.

Farrah

Nazihk has mentioned that it'd be cool if lay orders served more purpose.

Maybe make it so lay members are affected by shrine powers and thus benefitted by Avatar aura. Try to adjust other crusade powers to also provide more benefits to lay members.

Penwize

Farrah said:

Nazihk has mentioned that it'd be cool if lay orders served more purpose.

Maybe make it so lay members are affected by shrine powers and thus benefitted by Avatar aura. Try to adjust other crusade powers to also provide more benefits to lay members.

Problem with that is that it would incentivize orders to become Cities 2: Electric Boogaloo.  Having them separate is still kind of a good thing, I think, in terms of keeping the factions away from pure homogenization.

Here's a thought, though.  Grove harmony and alchemist orrery are buffs selected per-faction and given by a single class.  What about adding an order power equivalent, that lets an order select a blessing each year using stolen essence.  All they need is enough to select the blessing; actually using it could consume personal essence.  This incentivizes a base level of participation by every order, and doesn't necessarily heap all the rewards on the victor.  If not precisely equivalent to harmony/orrery, something similar in effect.  As a bonus, this could give a pretty neat set of opportunities for evangelism.