Seafaring, pirate, and privateer etiquette

Tarkanian

Ahh. Very well, my bad.

I guess my first point stands though: PK-status notwithstanding, don't be a jerk. Make the game fun for everyone.

:>

Kresslack

Tarkanian said:

Ahh. Very well, my bad.

I guess my first point stands though: PK-status notwithstanding, don't be a jerk. Make the game fun for everyone.

:>

The only people that I find get po'd about being boarded and extorted, are the ones who realize they should have been prepared in the first place, but weren't. While we've had some really lame experiences with some people ( like the guy who, when boarded, laughed and tokened away, abandoning his ship, crew, and friends....or the person who, because they were afk fishing and got sunk, started spamming some of us with messages ), but overall, there have been more positive experiences with other people out at seas so far as I can recall. 

The 'don't be a jerk' thing is a two way street though.

Tvistor

I can not be bothered to write a long post, but I pretty much echo absolutely everything Mosr said, and used my conscience to determine whether piracy as it is now is a jerk move for the most part. (see: most part. It doesn't really matter if restraint was shown once if party X didn't show it on another occasion, or old theft would still exist)

I personally would never pay a huge amount of gold, only to pay a third party more gold to not grief me. There are enough people who have had terrible experiences with pirates that it is obvious the problem is not nonexistent.

I was never robbed with old theft up because I never put Achaea anywhere where I couldn't see what was happening, didn't AFK even on guards and would journal if I had to get up and get the door. (which Profit can probably attest to the one or two times he yanked me out of some random room -- though I have no idea if he was capable of getting anything with more determination, since I'm also aware of most theft tricks).

I like being able to chill out a bit. Not sure why I would voluntarily get out on the seas to constantly have to exhibit that level of caution (because if I don't, I apparently deserve to lose things I worked for)

Jonathin

Alright. I'll concede, again, because you obviously understand my argument but won't budge. That's fine. We can at least agree on the "don't be a jerk" portion. That's a pretty good guideline that we can follow. 

I'd like to extend it to the PoM as well (as a mild suggestion/request) that if someone is obviously a completely inept captain, chase them to a harbour so they get a taste for it once in a while, even if you have a full crew. 

Even through rage-filled eyes, I was trying to get you to understand that to get more people interested in seafaring and possibly ship combat (which is much more fun than sailing around looking for unarmed vessels), we can't be setting the stakes so high that they get turned off to seafaring as a whole. You've heard the testimonies of the proponents and opponents of your form of piracy. Take them for what they are and possibly adjust your pirating so that it's not so rough on novice captains while still serving to teach them that crucial first lesson without bankrupting them.

ETA: I've taken in every word of this entire thread and have already made adjustments to my personal rules of engagement, so don't think you'd be the only one making slight changes.

Ruth

This is back when Darknight still headed the PoM. Obviously some of this has changed now (this is not from my POV):

http://pastebin.com/7T7U3aer

I'll like to think we've improved since then.

Jonathin

The funny part is that I don't even remember that, but I was obviously there. I must've buried it deep underneath newer memories. When I look back at it, I kind of remember it, but then again, when I was sailing with Darknight I was new and didn't really understand as much as I do now and I boarded a crap ton of ships after that where if someone had the 10k for the minimum deal, I left them alone without picking their ships clean.

ETA: Another point to look at is the fact that people advocating for piracy are a minority. We all know what happens when the majority whines enough. I obviously can't threaten and say that if you don't tone it down that it'll be nerfed in some way, but if we can't find some kind of happy medium it'll be nerfed anyways. Obviously you want to be able to continue pirating and I want you to be able to continue because I like to hunt pirates.

What happens when you run everyone off and nobody sails anymore but you and me? You're obviously not going to get very good business if the only ships out there are the heavily-armed, veteran pirate hunter types so piracy will probably go inactive and then I won't have any reason to sail out which means that seafaring is basically kaput.

Zeon

I admit that I don't sail and know very little about seafaring (I only know up to shipreturn so I don't have to walk back from Tenwat), but I don't understand why people fret so much about encounters with pirates. It doesn't sound like they can take anything besides bait (or whatever you leave lying on the floor, which you shouldn't be doing, considering inventories can have an infinite number of things in them). Sailing is already (as it was meant to be) a gold sink, it doesn't sound like the cost of getting sunk or paying pirates off is very much in comparison to how much gold it costs to get involved in sailing to begin with (credits for lessons, ship, etc).

Sylvance

Zeon said:

I admit that I don't sail and know very little about seafaring (I only know up to shipreturn so I don't have to walk back from Tenwat), but I don't understand why people fret so much about encounters with pirates. It doesn't sound like they can take anything besides bait (or whatever you leave lying on the floor, which you shouldn't be doing, considering inventories can have an infinite number of things in them). Sailing is already (as it was meant to be) a gold sink, it doesn't sound like the cost of getting sunk or paying pirates off is very much in comparison to how much gold it costs to get involved in sailing to begin with (credits for lessons, ship, etc).

You're kidding, right?

Kaevan

Sylvance said:

Zeon said:

I admit that I don't sail and know very little about seafaring (I only know up to shipreturn so I don't have to walk back from Tenwat), but I don't understand why people fret so much about encounters with pirates. It doesn't sound like they can take anything besides bait (or whatever you leave lying on the floor, which you shouldn't be doing, considering inventories can have an infinite number of things in them). Sailing is already (as it was meant to be) a gold sink, it doesn't sound like the cost of getting sunk or paying pirates off is very much in comparison to how much gold it costs to get involved in sailing to begin with (credits for lessons, ship, etc).

You're kidding, right?

I'll take this question! Pirates can indeed demand gold, but they can also threaten property damage. Ships cost something to raise from the depths of the e-oceans. There's also the consideration of the crew to consider, especially if the ship sinks. Morale can take a blow and if enough tokens are not stocked, some of them may actually perish. Crew costs gold and food to maintain (which costs money or time).

But yes, in comparison to the ship itself, which is either 2,500,000 gold sovereigns, 5,000,000 gold sovereigns, and however much war galleys cost, the cost is somewhat pitiful.

Kaevan

Jonathin said:

One of the biggest problems with your guys' attitude is that while it's positive for you, you immediately think that it's a positive thing for the game. Yes, there are risks associated with seafaring, but they shouldn't be so enormously high that they drive potential captains (including potential combat-oriented captains) away from seafaring altogether.

Reading back through the thread, I would like to point out that the risk is there for the pirates, as well. It is certainly not unheard of for someone to fight back, attempt to board us instead (although that is a rare event), or simply call for reinforcements while stalling for time. It is certainly not a one-way street here. The only difference is that the pirates are usually wary and prepared to fight back should their would-be victims end up being bolder than they thought. The risks for the pirates are exactly the same for the pirates' would-be victims and arguably, so are the costs. The main difference in the two is the amount of preparation that either side does to mitigate the damage they might incur. And hey, some people hunt pirates or Mhaldorians -- the former aren't always liked and the latter are almost universally reviled.

Kresslack

Jonathin said:

I'd like to extend it to the PoM as well (as a mild suggestion/request) that if someone is obviously a completely inept captain, chase them to a harbour so they get a taste for it once in a while, even if you have a full crew. 

Make the same suggestion to the Scyrians and let us know what they say.

Katzchen

Kresslack said:

Jonathin said:

I'd like to extend it to the PoM as well (as a mild suggestion/request) that if someone is obviously a completely inept captain, chase them to a harbour so they get a taste for it once in a while, even if you have a full crew. 

Make the same suggestion to the Scyrians and let us know what they say.

They wouldn't board though, would they?. There's only so much damage you can do by sinking.

Tahquil

-This- thread is were I was suppose to post it...

The Bal'met event finale is actually @Zulah coming back to the cheers of those not POM. Until he slowly and methodically strips them of everything, one charming smirk at a time.

Sylvance

Jonathin said:

The funny part is that I don't even remember that, but I was obviously there. I must've buried it deep underneath newer memories. When I look back at it, I kind of remember it, but then again, when I was sailing with Darknight I was new and didn't really understand as much as I do now and I boarded a crap ton of ships after that where if someone had the 10k for the minimum deal, I left them alone without picking their ships clean.

ETA: Another point to look at is the fact that people advocating for piracy are a minority. We all know what happens when the majority whines enough. I obviously can't threaten and say that if you don't tone it down that it'll be nerfed in some way, but if we can't find some kind of happy medium it'll be nerfed anyways. Obviously you want to be able to continue pirating and I want you to be able to continue because I like to hunt pirates.

What happens when you run everyone off and nobody sails anymore but you and me? You're obviously not going to get very good business if the only ships out there are the heavily-armed, veteran pirate hunter types so piracy will probably go inactive and then I won't have any reason to sail out which means that seafaring is basically kaput.

Jonathin said:

The funny part is that I don't even remember that, but I was obviously there. I must've buried it deep underneath newer memories. When I look back at it, I kind of remember it, but then again, when I was sailing with Darknight I was new and didn't really understand as much as I do now and I boarded a crap ton of ships after that where if someone had the 10k for the minimum deal, I left them alone without picking their ships clean.

ETA: Another point to look at is the fact that people advocating for piracy are a minority. We all know what happens when the majority whines enough. I obviously can't threaten and say that if you don't tone it down that it'll be nerfed in some way, but if we can't find some kind of happy medium it'll be nerfed anyways. Obviously you want to be able to continue pirating and I want you to be able to continue because I like to hunt pirates.

What happens when you run everyone off and nobody sails anymore but you and me? You're obviously not going to get very good business if the only ships out there are the heavily-armed, veteran pirate hunter types so piracy will probably go inactive and then I won't have any reason to sail out which means that seafaring is basically kaput.

At which point, the pirates will stop pirating... And then people will start sailing... Until the pirates start pirating again..?

Oceana

Sylvance

That's epic

Zulah

Much nonsense. Pirating should be a larger part of Achaean seafaring. I wrote up a concept many years ago for Clem proposing a few concepts aimed at improving Pirating through a basic faction system.

The current ship trade system needs to offer more PvP options for true pirating. (For the sake of Achaea) Pirates should desire wealth over anarchy and mindless bloodshed unless they've some other motivation.

Unfortunately in my experience too many players feel the investment to acquire a ship should entitle them to a peaceful seafaring experience. Until the current system allows pirates to be plundering pirates, player pirates will resort to the only means presented to them. Kill passengers, sink ship, lol at victims.

Some of the things the PoM attempted under my leadership to get away from this cookie cutter Achaean piracy included: harbour blockades, kidnapping young adventurers by forcing them to crossplank and locking them in our hold for ransoms from their house/family/city (my personal favorite), armed escorts, and a slew of events with the various Triton groups and some NPC smugglers on several islands pre ship trade.

Achaean pirates will always exist even if there aren't "non pirate players" sailing. Just like PvP will always exist even if 99% of players only PvE. It's a part of the game that could be much more interesting for both the aggressors and the victims if there was more of a system in place.

The simplest fix for piracy in Achaea would be coding in an ability for an attacking ship to plunder the cargo hold of another ship.


Also: Stop getting bent out of shape when you get pirated. Enjoy it! What good is a world without conflict or consequence? I'll never forget a certain someone making his popularly well done Achaean world map unavailable to all players after I plundered his ship for a whooping 50 moss... You need bad guys if you want someone to play the good guys against. Don't hate them for providing something you want in the end.

Antidas

+100 to @Zulah

Tanris

I'm not invested in ships whatsoever (thank god), but a few things to consider. Should be noted I don't actually have an opinion on this:
Compare the amount it takes to get into seafaring compared to getting into combat (tri trans, survival, curatives, system). Heavy investment, lolwat.
The problem with seafaring is there is no real reason most people are willing to invest in it, not that the investment is too high. Seafaring just isn't interesting for the most part, because you essentially spend most of your time afk while looking for ships (or everyone except the captain does).

Never had much sympathy for people who refuse to help themselves then complain, so I'll not comment upon the "pirating is griefing and there's nothing most people can do" thing. Sounds very entitled, though. If a person wants to just fish and play the one person moneymaking game, drop 10k on protection. You'll make it back in that grace period from fishing and be able to afk in peace (you can probably already, ships aren't exactly easy to find from what I know).

Honestly, the majority of this sounds to me like people not accepting that someone can and will interfere with their routine. Seafaring is extremely lucrative. That's because, like equally fast gold supplies (annwyn, dks for instance), there are inherent risks involved. Sure, there is a line people should not cross in all engagements when it comes to conflict, but if you refuse to pay what sounds like a standard 10k fee on being hailed, then fail in your daring escape attempt, accept that you lost this one and move on. Maybe you'll be better prepared next time and show them what's what, or be able to mock them for their incompitence after evading their ambush and making it safely to harbour.

That said, I would gladly endorse all of Tagg's classleads for solution 3. Easiest fix.

Skye

Tahquil said:

-This- thread is were I was suppose to post it...

The Bal'met event finale is actually @Zulah coming back to the cheers of those not POM. Until he slowly and methodically strips them of everything, one charming smirk at a time.

I dunno Tahq,



I think they may still cheer if he's stripping them >_> Especially if slowly and methodically.

Tahquil

(I know, I've already sussed it all out a week or so ago. )