Seafaring, pirate, and privateer etiquette

Jonathin

So, to keep from derailing the thread in the dais further, I'm making this topic so people can share their experiences and discuss what is/should be proper behaviour on the seas. @Kinilan's post over there made me rage so hard that I think I almost gave myself a hernia. I'd simply like to establish some OOC rules or some simple sets of behaviour for pirates and privateers on the seas so that the whole seafaring concept remains a positive thing for the game.

I will admit to showing a lack of discretion when it comes to Mhaldorian and Ashtani ships, however I have scaled back mostly to the waterways around where Shallam was. Once in a great while I'll sail around to Mhaldor or Ashtan and see if I can bait out a warship, but to no avail most of the time.

However, people saying (and others admitting to doing it) that they were waylaid and robbed of anything of worth is absolutely ridiculous and shouldn't be tolerated.  We shouldn't be turning people off to seafaring to sate our own sadistic need to feel superior. We want MORE people to get into seafaring, not less. The attitude of "there was nothing in the code about how much we could take" is a terrible one to have. The code states that if the person pays 10k, you leave them alone. It's been that way since PoM's founding. If you don't follow it, what is the point of the PoM being a high clan with a code anyways?

All that being said, we need to show restraint. I have my own personal set of 'rules of engagement' that I abide by religiously so that while I have fun, others can completely avoid my entire area of patrol and continue to have their fun. I realize that this sounds preachy and long, but this is obviously an issue that needs to be nipped before it becomes a widespread problem.

Thaumas

PoM is all about griefing. Just count all the times they whined when their stupid victims ran away, foolishly avoiding a perfect chance for roleplaying.

You do have a point, but you're wasting your time.

Jonathin

I'd rather waste my time and bring attention to something before it becomes a serious problem than let it fester and become some kind of flesh-eating virus.

Jonathin

That's how most of the time spent seafaring, searching for other ships to fight with is. In fact, as a Shallamese captain, my options are limited further because I don't attack Eleusian or Cyrenian ships (Hashani if the conditions are right). 

It doesn't mean that anyone should release all of that pent up frustration on a single captain.

Rinzai

My impression is that the PoM took the time to successfully turn people away from sailing which was awful, people didn't want to take the time to learn, or the risk in gold to go back out despite I know I have tried to teach as many Cyrenians how to sail and survive and, if you do get caught, RP something maybe you would get robbed blind. I think this has gotten better, but only because the PoM is not active, so only Citadels are about now which *swoon* is fun too.

I would love more denizen encounters or random denizen encounters, like more sea monsters, they don't even have to be huge and scary something a wind cutter could kill, or should run from would be a lot of fun.

Kinilan

You keep making stuff up. There was never anything in the Code that said 10k and you were free to go. There was 6 months safe passage for 10k but that has nothing to do with the code. You get caught you pay. You don't want to get caught learn to fight back.

Favonius

I actually quite enjoyed getting jacked by Mosr when he was in the PoM. Being chased by the Black Sail is a heart-pounding moment, and while losing 10k is a big enough amount to be annoying, it's not so much you can't make it back pretty fast.

While the idea of pirates who just take everything or sink you is realistic IRL, from an gameplay perspective that behaviour is just stupid and griefy. It'd be a shame if we had to have something hardcoded to stop people going over the top like that.

Jonathin

@Kinilan: Yes there was. It was 10k for a 1 month pass. I remember because I revised the wording twice. That is what the admin sanctioned and we were threatened with losing our high clan status if we didn't stick to it. You are trying to argue with someone that lived by that damn code for 2 RL years.

Re- @Favonius: That's the whole point. 10k isn't a ton of gold. 150k + rapiers, maps, flags, etc is enough to get a 6 month free pass, easy, yet I doubt that Kinilan would've held back and stuck to the code even if the admin put it into RL book form and slapped him in the face with it.

Kinilan

Did someone sink you today? Is that why you're so upset?  The event you keep mentioning was months ago.The ship in action was the Shadow Emissary. I wasn't Captain. And oh ya, she was mouthing off and stalling waiting for Hashan to come save her. Actions, say hello to my friend consequences. We didn't get any gold from her, we got a few trash weapons that were months old and only fit for smelting.


At no point during my time as head of PoM did Tecton come to me and say "You have to follow X" In fact the only messages I got from him were one at the start asking if I had nuked the clan (don't have it any more) and another that read:
Message #647        Sent by Tecton 7/26/3:37 I dont really have any metrics on that, but in most cases people with ships are more established! 

Which was a reply to a question about player retention and getting pirated which came up during the whole theft change thing. And again, when I took over there was nothing about 10k getting you a free pass.

Your little ragefest here is fueled by misinformation and bias.


@Rinzai your statement at the end blows my mind. It's ok to get chased by the game itself but it other people are doing it suddenly the experience is terrible?

Jonathin

There is no misinformation whatsoever. If the code was changed, it still doesn't change the fact that ripping someone off of everything they have is ridiculous. Just because the admin can't stay consistent doesn't mean that you should steal everything they own. 

It's about self-control and an OOC sense of respect that other people have put hours, weeks, or months into a ship and in one fell swoop you decide to destroy it all.

Kinilan

We never took everything someone had. The choice to pay was theirs. Aside from what was laying on the ground. They could refuse and have their ship sunk. if it was properly stocked all they would lose were a few crew (if any) and some morale which is pretty easy to raise if you know how. And whatever was in the hold I guess. Despite what the help files say you don't lose the strongbox or larder.

No, if I'd decided to "destroy it all" I'd have ordered every shipmate killed and salvage-sunk every ship I caught to burn tokens and kill off the crewmates, nuking crew morale and killing off all crew experience, Blockaded popular harbours for hours on end to deny docking or camped Tasur'ke and Thraasi with multiple ships to deny trade and never let up on the weapons fire when people said they were willing to talk. restraint was there. Just because we didn't act in a manner the victims thought was appropriate doesn't mean we were unrestrained.

Katzchen

Mouthing off? Um, no, I wasn't. What you took, was like I said, a good few hundred steel worth of weapons, about 15k of herbs, and killing crew was worth another decent amount. I think I lost a good 40k, and that was without giving you my gold. If backup had been any slower, I would have also had salvage costs, and cargo on top of that. Though how would not stalling, and losing 150k have done me any good?

Katzchen

Also like I said at the time, trading with a cutter certainly doesn't spare you enough profit to pay those ludicrous 'safety' fees. You're better off hunting for gold.

Rheve

And people wonder why sailing is so awful here. Players don't mess with ships because it isn't worth the price investment and the entire system lacks. I stay as far away from ships as I can.

Ruth

Someone once told me that if they caught a ship, they'll extend the courtesy of allowing the victim to board their ship. Negotiations will be carried out, and if there is anything that can be exchanged in return for letting the ship float, they'll take it and sail away. If the captain refuses to answer the hails or decides to shoot back or refuses to negotiate, then the ship is forfeit. Depending on circumstances, they might allow the captain to remain on board while their ship sinks or they could choose to sink with their ship.

The PoM method is the other way round. We board their ship and offer them payment for safe passage across the seas. We give them the plans that we have on offer. If they pay, the ship name gets put on a clanhelp list to make sure they don't get targetted. We also scour for whatever else they have on board. We also leave the shipmates/crewmates alone. If they refuse to pay, we fire a warning shot. If they continue to refuse, we go back to our ship and sink them anyway.

The Mhaldorian way is the PoM way except we don't offer safe passage plans. We simply tell them they owe us 50k for being kind enough to check in on them.We remind them not to cross our paths.

We target all ships, really.

When I go sailing alone, I tend to shoot straight away. Then I shout.

Delphinus

Kinilan said:

No, if I'd decided to "destroy it all" I'd have ordered every shipmate killed and salvage-sunk every ship I caught to burn tokens and kill off the crewmates, nuking crew morale and killing off all crew experience, Blockaded popular harbours for hours on end to deny docking or camped Tasur'ke and Thraasi with multiple ships to deny trade and never let up on the weapons fire when people said they were willing to talk. restraint was there. Just because we didn't act in a manner the victims thought was appropriate doesn't mean we were unrestrained.

This is a good list of things that shouldn't be possible. Listing them off doesn't mean you're practicing self-control -- it just means you're aware of how broken the system is.

I rarely sail because 1) there's little to do out there, 2) I don't want to risk losing crew/money for a three-hour tour, 3) being at sea keeps me from responding to emergencies or calls for aid, and 4) ^^^^^^^^^^=^^^^^^^^^^. For the most part, I only go out to map or explore.

Trey

Well Kinilan the pirate wanted sailors to be poor, but Delphinus couldn't be arsed to make a three hour tour.


A three hour tour....

Rinzai

@kinilan I am confused  as why my statement blows your mind. But I can expand on it and see if that helps, I see no difference in running away from the PoM or a Denizen Sea Monster (which I would love to see) other than, chances of survival, and i made no claim there was a difference. But players I would argue that denizens have a preset amount of constraint, where players do not.

My mindset is that some silly sea monster, could be enough of a spark to get people to learn how to sail properly, how to fire their weapons properly, and hopefully that would be enough when they run from it the first time, if they have to. It would also had more to sailing in the sense that, it wouldn't just be pirates, ship trade and fishing.

So no it isn't about "lets just give people something else to run from" it's just about making it a more dynamic environment, and a reason to teach. And the main reason I say this is because the sinking or getting sank by citadels has been fantastic, or even when it's a friendly citadel that just sails increases the enjoyment and interest in sailing 100 fold.

Hell if the PoM wants to annex part of the western Notic, with some crazy sea monster abomination, that I can go hunt, that would be great. I could then use it to teach people how to shoot weapons, but then the PoM would probably take exception to that, I just darted up their monsters. Then that could force a RP interaction with content.

Oceana

While some may enjoy encountering or hunting pirates, I think there are more captains who stay away from the seas because of piracy. The potential losses are too great.

Sea monsters do not have the same effect, as they act differently.

Veldrin

from my experience. People with Kinilan's attitude is a large part of why others stay away from the sea. Simply not worth bothering with such people.

Jonathin

Yes, it goes completely against everything that everyone else has been trying to do.There's a fine line between being a pirate and being an asshat and if people can't stay on the right side of the line, people are always going to be turned off to seafaring. It's the same reason theft got nerfed.

Just because you can doesn't mean that you should.

Ailne

We need some vulnerable, sensitive pirates! Also my character still plans to punch @Kinilan in the nose at the first reasonable opportunity.

Kaevan

From my own experiences on the high e-seas, I will say that a lot of captains (and crew) simply do not know what they are doing or seem to take absolutely no precautions whatsoever -- no lookout, no watch, no idea how to extinguish their ship from burning until it sinks, or even no idea how to clear the rigging once it gets fouled with shot. While one is reasonably safe while underway and alert, a vast majority of people seem to be lulled into a false sense of security when it comes to sailing. Case in point, if you are traveling alone and you get get ambushed. I got the feeling that sailing was really meant to be a group endeavor rather than something you go off and do by yourself. And the vast majority of people that we came across? By themselves. And even in the early days, I don't have many recollections of people who actually did something before skipping to OOC insults. 

Piracy in Achaea is practically, by definition, stealing and extortion (with a side order of murder if negotiations break down). As a result, the unwary and unprepared are going to be preyed upon and are usually going to come off worse in the end. A lot of these problems would be alleviated if people did not go through the e-oceans like a naked virgin walking through an unknown village in the dark carrying a sack of gold. It's like going into raids with Cain without bringing mass/density and levitation/hovering. If you or your organisation paid 2,500,000 or 5,000,000 gold sovereigns for a vessel, take more precautions against being robbed blind!

Now, with that said, sometimes the behaviour on either end of the interactions can leave something to be desired. Could pirates do more in terms of roleplay or making demands? Arguably so depending on what your experiences so far have been. Can the behaviour of some of the victims be improved? In my own views, yes. There have only been a small handful of people that I recall during the times I went sailing with @Kinilan that did not simply skip straight to insults, IC or OOC, once we successfully managed to board their ship, assuming that they were not simply AFK. On a few occasions, we simply took pity on people or left them alone. For some other occasions, quite a bit of property damage occurred. If you're going to simply going to skip to insulting the people who have a boot on your neck, there's a pretty good chance that they'll be tempted to fracture your vertebrae just to make a point. In my own experience with pirating, most of our demands were not overly outrageous considering what one can make on the seas; steep, certainly, but not terribly draconian. Obviously, some of your experiences have been different. 

Remember, don't be the naked virgin strolling through an unknown village at night carrying a sack of gold. Hire some bodyguards, maybe travel during the daytime, and maybe invest in a rickshaw/buggy/horse and cart/rocket sled.

Talonia

Part of the reason there are few people participating in seafaring relative to other activities (RP, raids, group bashing, mainland exploration/questing, etc) is that it has extraordinarily high start-up costs which effectively lock out players who aren't willing or able to fork over money for credits.  Even if you don't own your own ship, you need to provide for a crew, usually pay a ship rental fee for your organization, and do other stuff I have no idea about because I haven't become involved in seafaring *at all*.  It's effectively just created a whole bunch of awesome areas and things that are barely (if ever) seen by the majority of the playerbase.  I'd love to go explore and quest in places like Lothos.  Unfortunately, even offering to pay 

@Kaevan, you're normally right on the money, but consider the already-steep learning curve involved in Achaea with basic things like combat, then add all the complexities of ship combat and seafaring on top of that.  There's only so much time we can all invest in acquiring *any* virtual skills on Achaea, and when the payout for this one is that you get to sail an expensive ship and barely ever encounter anyone, well, it's no surprise things aren't 'faring so well (pun intended).     

Kresslack

@Katzchen: I happen to remember the event in question quite well, as I was captaining the Shadow Emissary. When caught, you got an attitude(which can be understandable in the situation, but there was little IC about it, is seemed), and as a result the crew took everything not nailed down. You then proceeded to stall, waiting for three other Hashani ships to come along: Artanis, Qwindor, and some other captain I'd never heard of. 

The Shadow Emissary and everyone crewing on it, stayed and engaged all attacking ships, managing to sink Artanis while you ran to port, before eventually extracting ourselves from the engagement. If anyone has concerns about losing goods or their life at sea, and have no interest in learning how to actually survive at sea, then stay on land.

While it would certainly be good to have more people out at sea, I'd rather them be people who have a genuine interest in seafaring, and have respect for the myriad of potential risks involved. If you can't fight, run(and go learn). If you get caught, attempt to kill the attackers if you can, or negotiate your way out of it and be better prepared to defend your investments.

You're pitching piracy as greifing...which I think is a bit absurd. If a thief breaks into a shop, do they no generally take everything lying around, or do they say, "Oh, I don't want them to feel bad, so I'll only take a couple of things"? 

Shops get cleared out on a regular basis, and while it's unfortunate, most of the time it can be prevented by simple preparation and training. The same goes for seafaring, in many cases. 

And as a side note, Mosr, stop trying to quote a Code you no longer have involvement in. You made your decision and left the PoM, and the Code has been revised more than once since your departure. During that time, and still to this very day, there has not been one intervention that I know of in regards to how the PoM operates. 

Additionally, as I believe @Rinzai said, more creature and denizen interactions like we've been having are a good thing, but as you can see, they hardly make the seas a popular place to be. 

Delphinus

Kresslack said:

If anyone has concerns about losing goods or their life at sea, and have no interest in learning how to actually survive at sea, then stay on land.

Welp, have fun in your two-person minigame, I guess. I'll be over here contributing to the main game or something.

Kresslack

Delphinus said:

Kresslack said:

If anyone has concerns about losing goods or their life at sea, and have no interest in learning how to actually survive at sea, then stay on land.

Welp, have fun in your two-person minigame, I guess. I'll be over here contributing to the main game or something.

Thanks, I will. 

Katzchen

@Kresslack yes - that 'attitude' is called 'shock'. I wasn't mouthing off. I was caught totally unawares, and didn't know what the hell to do. All I recall is asking why they would do this, and acting out 'thinking' hard about whether to give them the gold, while reinforcements came.

I had interest in learning how to defend myself, but I had only been sailing for a very short time, less of that had I had my own ship, the previous one I'd used not even having a figurehead. I don't think I would have had any remote chance at all against five seasoned pirates on a larger vessel anyhow. If they had demanded 10k for passage, and left, I probably would have gone on to learn how to fight, and armed my ship, or saved up for a strider, but as it was, I just quit sailing, because the cost and stress wasn't worth it.

Jonathin

Ellodin and I are arguably two of the best combat-oriented seafarers in the game and we both feel the same. Coincidentally, we have both been pirates as well and for a good amount of time at that. I think it should say something when one of us talks about how pirates and privateers should behave, considering that 99% of the people I interacted with as a pirate enjoyed the experience of being boarded and bargained with.

Even if they got snippy, I was able to keep cool and continue negotiating, rather than get indignant and say "wheeelp, I guess we're done here! Steal everything and sink it!"

One of the biggest problems with your guys' attitude is that while it's positive for you, you immediately think that it's a positive thing for the game. Yes, there are risks associated with seafaring, but they shouldn't be so enormously high that they drive potential captains (including potential combat-oriented captains) away from seafaring altogether. 

The other problem with your argument is that once you basically strip someone down to nothing, they won't want to learn how to fight their ships because they don't want to deal with the hassle of losing everything again. People that don't know how to fight their ships don't know how important it is until they've been boarded at least once or actively go out with captains that do know how to use their ships in combat.

You also try to limit the seas to people that are "genuinely interested" when it should be an open thing for all of Achaea. If I started killing you every single time you stepped out of Ashtan simply because I'm better than you, you'd end up issuing me. I couldn't use the excuse "oh, well he stepped out of Ashtan, so I thought he was genuinely interested in combat", so you can't use that argument here.

I'm not pitching piracy as griefing, I'm pitching YOUR TYPE of pirating as griefing. The way Zulah operated was masterful and should be the pillar upon which all piracy RP is based. More RP, less lolpk&theft. If you or Kinilan were actually as good as you think you are, you would not lose nearly as many ships as you do. Boarding is one of the easiest mechanics in ship combat. And before you start to point fingers and say that I lose ships all the time, keep in mind that I'm chasing ships down to sink them, not board them and kill their crew so they can't run. I boarded well over 150 ships during my time as part of the PoM and sunk at least half that because I killed the crew.

As an aside: I already conceded that the code was probably changed, but that doesn't make it a good change.

Tagg

I agree, we should all support solution 3 of my various classleads.

Jonathin

Tagg said:

I agree, we should all support solution 3 of my various classleads.

That was a needed laugh.