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Seafaring, pirate, and privateer etiquette

JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIMember Posts: 3,323 @@ - Legendary Achaean
So, to keep from derailing the thread in the dais further, I'm making this topic so people can share their experiences and discuss what is/should be proper behaviour on the seas. @Kinilan's post over there made me rage so hard that I think I almost gave myself a hernia. I'd simply like to establish some OOC rules or some simple sets of behaviour for pirates and privateers on the seas so that the whole seafaring concept remains a positive thing for the game.

I will admit to showing a lack of discretion when it comes to Mhaldorian and Ashtani ships, however I have scaled back mostly to the waterways around where Shallam was. Once in a great while I'll sail around to Mhaldor or Ashtan and see if I can bait out a warship, but to no avail most of the time.

However, people saying (and others admitting to doing it) that they were waylaid and robbed of anything of worth is absolutely ridiculous and shouldn't be tolerated.  We shouldn't be turning people off to seafaring to sate our own sadistic need to feel superior. We want MORE people to get into seafaring, not less. The attitude of "there was nothing in the code about how much we could take" is a terrible one to have. The code states that if the person pays 10k, you leave them alone. It's been that way since PoM's founding. If you don't follow it, what is the point of the PoM being a high clan with a code anyways?

All that being said, we need to show restraint. I have my own personal set of 'rules of engagement' that I abide by religiously so that while I have fun, others can completely avoid my entire area of patrol and continue to have their fun. I realize that this sounds preachy and long, but this is obviously an issue that needs to be nipped before it becomes a widespread problem.


My site will remain up, but will not be maintained. The repository will continue to have scripts added to it if I decide to play another game. Maybe I'll see you around in Starmourn!
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Comments

  • ThaumasThaumas Member Posts: 432 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    PoM is all about griefing. Just count all the times they whined when their stupid victims ran away, foolishly avoiding a perfect chance for roleplaying.

    You do have a point, but you're wasting your time.
    image
    SylvanceSilas
  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIMember Posts: 3,323 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'd rather waste my time and bring attention to something before it becomes a serious problem than let it fester and become some kind of flesh-eating virus.

    My site will remain up, but will not be maintained. The repository will continue to have scripts added to it if I decide to play another game. Maybe I'll see you around in Starmourn!
    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I went with the PoM on a few runs waaaay back when. The majority of the runs are filled with utter boredom that I am honestly not surprised to hear the crew making big calls when they do inevitably find a mark, and then complain bitterly when the mark manages to get away. It's frustrating as all hell for everybody involved, I think.
  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIMember Posts: 3,323 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    That's how most of the time spent seafaring, searching for other ships to fight with is. In fact, as a Shallamese captain, my options are limited further because I don't attack Eleusian or Cyrenian ships (Hashani if the conditions are right). 

    It doesn't mean that anyone should release all of that pent up frustration on a single captain.

    My site will remain up, but will not be maintained. The repository will continue to have scripts added to it if I decide to play another game. Maybe I'll see you around in Starmourn!
    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

  • KinilanKinilan Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 1,255 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You keep making stuff up. There was never anything in the Code that said 10k and you were free to go. There was 6 months safe passage for 10k but that has nothing to do with the code. You get caught you pay. You don't want to get caught learn to fight back.
    Kresslack
  • FavoniusFavonius Member Posts: 77 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I actually quite enjoyed getting jacked by Mosr when he was in the PoM. Being chased by the Black Sail is a heart-pounding moment, and while losing 10k is a big enough amount to be annoying, it's not so much you can't make it back pretty fast.

    While the idea of pirates who just take everything or sink you is realistic IRL, from an gameplay perspective that behaviour is just stupid and griefy. It'd be a shame if we had to have something hardcoded to stop people going over the top like that.
    JonathinSiggeDraekar
  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIMember Posts: 3,323 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2012
    @Kinilan: Yes there was. It was 10k for a 1 month pass. I remember because I revised the wording twice. That is what the admin sanctioned and we were threatened with losing our high clan status if we didn't stick to it. You are trying to argue with someone that lived by that damn code for 2 RL years.

    Re- @Favonius: That's the whole point. 10k isn't a ton of gold. 150k + rapiers, maps, flags, etc is enough to get a 6 month free pass, easy, yet I doubt that Kinilan would've held back and stuck to the code even if the admin put it into RL book form and slapped him in the face with it.
    Post edited by Jonathin on

    My site will remain up, but will not be maintained. The repository will continue to have scripts added to it if I decide to play another game. Maybe I'll see you around in Starmourn!
    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

  • KinilanKinilan Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 1,255 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Did someone sink you today? Is that why you're so upset?  The event you keep mentioning was months ago.The ship in action was the Shadow Emissary. I wasn't Captain. And oh ya, she was mouthing off and stalling waiting for Hashan to come save her. Actions, say hello to my friend consequences. We didn't get any gold from her, we got a few trash weapons that were months old and only fit for smelting.


    At no point during my time as head of PoM did Tecton come to me and say "You have to follow X" In fact the only messages I got from him were one at the start asking if I had nuked the clan (don't have it any more) and another that read:
    Message #647        Sent by Tecton 7/26/3:37 I dont really have any metrics on that, but in most cases people with ships are more established! 

    Which was a reply to a question about player retention and getting pirated which came up during the whole theft change thing. And again, when I took over there was nothing about 10k getting you a free pass.

    Your little ragefest here is fueled by misinformation and bias.


    @Rinzai your statement at the end blows my mind. It's ok to get chased by the game itself but it other people are doing it suddenly the experience is terrible?
    SylvanceKresslack
  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIMember Posts: 3,323 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    There is no misinformation whatsoever. If the code was changed, it still doesn't change the fact that ripping someone off of everything they have is ridiculous. Just because the admin can't stay consistent doesn't mean that you should steal everything they own. 

    It's about self-control and an OOC sense of respect that other people have put hours, weeks, or months into a ship and in one fell swoop you decide to destroy it all.

    My site will remain up, but will not be maintained. The repository will continue to have scripts added to it if I decide to play another game. Maybe I'll see you around in Starmourn!
    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

  • KinilanKinilan Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 1,255 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    We never took everything someone had. The choice to pay was theirs. Aside from what was laying on the ground. They could refuse and have their ship sunk. if it was properly stocked all they would lose were a few crew (if any) and some morale which is pretty easy to raise if you know how. And whatever was in the hold I guess. Despite what the help files say you don't lose the strongbox or larder.

    No, if I'd decided to "destroy it all" I'd have ordered every shipmate killed and salvage-sunk every ship I caught to burn tokens and kill off the crewmates, nuking crew morale and killing off all crew experience, Blockaded popular harbours for hours on end to deny docking or camped Tasur'ke and Thraasi with multiple ships to deny trade and never let up on the weapons fire when people said they were willing to talk. restraint was there. Just because we didn't act in a manner the victims thought was appropriate doesn't mean we were unrestrained.
  • KatzchenKatzchen MhaldorMember Posts: 2,000 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2012
    Mouthing off? Um, no, I wasn't. What you took, was like I said, a good few hundred steel worth of weapons, about 15k of herbs, and killing crew was worth another decent amount. I think I lost a good 40k, and that was without giving you my gold. If backup had been any slower, I would have also had salvage costs, and cargo on top of that. Though how would not stalling, and losing 150k have done me any good?


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                                            Darkly evil, cruel infernal.

                                                                     Necromanctic to the core,

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  • KatzchenKatzchen MhaldorMember Posts: 2,000 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2012
    Also like I said at the time, trading with a cutter certainly doesn't spare you enough profit to pay those ludicrous 'safety' fees. You're better off hunting for gold.


                   Honourable, knight eternal,

                                            Darkly evil, cruel infernal.

                                                                     Necromanctic to the core,

                                                                                             Dance with death forever more.



  • RuthRuth SingaporeMember Posts: 2,700 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2012
    Someone once told me that if they caught a ship, they'll extend the courtesy of allowing the victim to board their ship. Negotiations will be carried out, and if there is anything that can be exchanged in return for letting the ship float, they'll take it and sail away. If the captain refuses to answer the hails or decides to shoot back or refuses to negotiate, then the ship is forfeit. Depending on circumstances, they might allow the captain to remain on board while their ship sinks or they could choose to sink with their ship.

    The PoM method is the other way round. We board their ship and offer them payment for safe passage across the seas. We give them the plans that we have on offer. If they pay, the ship name gets put on a clanhelp list to make sure they don't get targetted. We also scour for whatever else they have on board. We also leave the shipmates/crewmates alone. If they refuse to pay, we fire a warning shot. If they continue to refuse, we go back to our ship and sink them anyway.

    The Mhaldorian way is the PoM way except we don't offer safe passage plans. We simply tell them they owe us 50k for being kind enough to check in on them.We remind them not to cross our paths.

    We target all ships, really.

    When I go sailing alone, I tend to shoot straight away. Then I shout.
    Post edited by Ruth on
    "Mummy, I'm hungry, but there's no one to eat! :C"

     

  • DelphinusDelphinus Member Posts: 896 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kinilan said:

    No, if I'd decided to "destroy it all" I'd have ordered every shipmate killed and salvage-sunk every ship I caught to burn tokens and kill off the crewmates, nuking crew morale and killing off all crew experience, Blockaded popular harbours for hours on end to deny docking or camped Tasur'ke and Thraasi with multiple ships to deny trade and never let up on the weapons fire when people said they were willing to talk. restraint was there. Just because we didn't act in a manner the victims thought was appropriate doesn't mean we were unrestrained.
    This is a good list of things that shouldn't be possible. Listing them off doesn't mean you're practicing self-control -- it just means you're aware of how broken the system is.

    I rarely sail because 1) there's little to do out there, 2) I don't want to risk losing crew/money for a three-hour tour, 3) being at sea keeps me from responding to emergencies or calls for aid, and 4) ^^^^^^^^^^=^^^^^^^^^^. For the most part, I only go out to map or explore.
    FavoniusSigge
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,800 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Well Kinilan the pirate wanted sailors to be poor, but Delphinus couldn't be arsed to make a three hour tour.


    A three hour tour....

    MelodieSiggeKresslack
  • RinzaiRinzai Member Posts: 178 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    @kinilan I am confused  as why my statement blows your mind. But I can expand on it and see if that helps, I see no difference in running away from the PoM or a Denizen Sea Monster (which I would love to see) other than, chances of survival, and i made no claim there was a difference. But players I would argue that denizens have a preset amount of constraint, where players do not.

    My mindset is that some silly sea monster, could be enough of a spark to get people to learn how to sail properly, how to fire their weapons properly, and hopefully that would be enough when they run from it the first time, if they have to. It would also had more to sailing in the sense that, it wouldn't just be pirates, ship trade and fishing.

    So no it isn't about "lets just give people something else to run from" it's just about making it a more dynamic environment, and a reason to teach. And the main reason I say this is because the sinking or getting sank by citadels has been fantastic, or even when it's a friendly citadel that just sails increases the enjoyment and interest in sailing 100 fold.

    Hell if the PoM wants to annex part of the western Notic, with some crazy sea monster abomination, that I can go hunt, that would be great. I could then use it to teach people how to shoot weapons, but then the PoM would probably take exception to that, I just darted up their monsters. Then that could force a RP interaction with content.





    SiggeJonathin
  • OceanaOceana North SeaMember Posts: 897 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    While some may enjoy encountering or hunting pirates, I think there are more captains who stay away from the seas because of piracy. The potential losses are too great.

    Sea monsters do not have the same effect, as they act differently.
  • VeldrinVeldrin DenmarkMember Posts: 433 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    from my experience. People with Kinilan's attitude is a large part of why others stay away from the sea. Simply not worth bothering with such people.
    image
    JonathinJhaeli
  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIMember Posts: 3,323 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yes, it goes completely against everything that everyone else has been trying to do.There's a fine line between being a pirate and being an asshat and if people can't stay on the right side of the line, people are always going to be turned off to seafaring. It's the same reason theft got nerfed.

    Just because you can doesn't mean that you should.

    My site will remain up, but will not be maintained. The repository will continue to have scripts added to it if I decide to play another game. Maybe I'll see you around in Starmourn!
    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

  • AilneAilne Member Posts: 4 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    We need some vulnerable, sensitive pirates! Also my character still plans to punch @Kinilan in the nose at the first reasonable opportunity.
    Favonius
  • TaloniaTalonia Member Posts: 152 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Part of the reason there are few people participating in seafaring relative to other activities (RP, raids, group bashing, mainland exploration/questing, etc) is that it has extraordinarily high start-up costs which effectively lock out players who aren't willing or able to fork over money for credits.  Even if you don't own your own ship, you need to provide for a crew, usually pay a ship rental fee for your organization, and do other stuff I have no idea about because I haven't become involved in seafaring *at all*.  It's effectively just created a whole bunch of awesome areas and things that are barely (if ever) seen by the majority of the playerbase.  I'd love to go explore and quest in places like Lothos.  Unfortunately, even offering to pay 

    @Kaevan, you're normally right on the money, but consider the already-steep learning curve involved in Achaea with basic things like combat, then add all the complexities of ship combat and seafaring on top of that.  There's only so much time we can all invest in acquiring *any* virtual skills on Achaea, and when the payout for this one is that you get to sail an expensive ship and barely ever encounter anyone, well, it's no surprise things aren't 'faring so well (pun intended).     
    SiggeBlujixapugNimSylvance
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,312 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2012
    @Katzchen: I happen to remember the event in question quite well, as I was captaining the Shadow Emissary. When caught, you got an attitude(which can be understandable in the situation, but there was little IC about it, is seemed), and as a result the crew took everything not nailed down. You then proceeded to stall, waiting for three other Hashani ships to come along: Artanis, Qwindor, and some other captain I'd never heard of. 

    The Shadow Emissary and everyone crewing on it, stayed and engaged all attacking ships, managing to sink Artanis while you ran to port, before eventually extracting ourselves from the engagement. If anyone has concerns about losing goods or their life at sea, and have no interest in learning how to actually survive at sea, then stay on land.

    While it would certainly be good to have more people out at sea, I'd rather them be people who have a genuine interest in seafaring, and have respect for the myriad of potential risks involved. If you can't fight, run(and go learn). If you get caught, attempt to kill the attackers if you can, or negotiate your way out of it and be better prepared to defend your investments.

    You're pitching piracy as greifing...which I think is a bit absurd. If a thief breaks into a shop, do they no generally take everything lying around, or do they say, "Oh, I don't want them to feel bad, so I'll only take a couple of things"? 

    Shops get cleared out on a regular basis, and while it's unfortunate, most of the time it can be prevented by simple preparation and training. The same goes for seafaring, in many cases. 

    And as a side note, Mosr, stop trying to quote a Code you no longer have involvement in. You made your decision and left the PoM, and the Code has been revised more than once since your departure. During that time, and still to this very day, there has not been one intervention that I know of in regards to how the PoM operates. 

    Additionally, as I believe @Rinzai said, more creature and denizen interactions like we've been having are a good thing, but as you can see, they hardly make the seas a popular place to be. 



  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,312 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Delphinus said:
    Kresslack said:

    If anyone has concerns about losing goods or their life at sea, and have no interest in learning how to actually survive at sea, then stay on land.

    Welp, have fun in your two-person minigame, I guess. I'll be over here contributing to the main game or something.
    Thanks, I will. 


  • KatzchenKatzchen MhaldorMember Posts: 2,000 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2012

    @Kresslack yes - that 'attitude' is called 'shock'. I wasn't mouthing off. I was caught totally unawares, and didn't know what the hell to do. All I recall is asking why they would do this, and acting out 'thinking' hard about whether to give them the gold, while reinforcements came.

    I had interest in learning how to defend myself, but I had only been sailing for a very short time, less of that had I had my own ship, the previous one I'd used not even having a figurehead. I don't think I would have had any remote chance at all against five seasoned pirates on a larger vessel anyhow. If they had demanded 10k for passage, and left, I probably would have gone on to learn how to fight, and armed my ship, or saved up for a strider, but as it was, I just quit sailing, because the cost and stress wasn't worth it.



                   Honourable, knight eternal,

                                            Darkly evil, cruel infernal.

                                                                     Necromanctic to the core,

                                                                                             Dance with death forever more.



  • TaggTagg Member Posts: 387 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I agree, we should all support solution 3 of my various classleads.
    Jonathin
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