The State of Housing

Jurixe

Those who know me know that I am a big advocate for better housing functionality. It has so much potential - particularly the out-of-sub plots - because it gives players the chance to create their own roleplay settings, to let loose their own creativity and set the scene instead of having to rely solely on what exists in the world. The addition of housing servants was a great step towards expanding that creativity, too. I have loved building every structure I have been involved with, and the greatest part of my Achaean investment, both time and money-wise, has been into housing.

I know housing projects as a whole (besides furniture) are on the backburner, and I understand that perhaps this is a niche market. I'm not looking to push for anything to be implemented RIGHT MEOW. But I'd like to discuss the state of it as a whole and hear what people think about it.

The greatest problem that I see with housing is that it isn't safe. It's really strange to me that houses are less safe than ships. If you want a 'secure' enemy conversion conversation or a 'secure' place to put your 10000 olives, where do you go? On a ship. I get that ships are a big investment, but frankly, houses can be and are too.  With the money I've put into my houses, I could probably own quite a few fleets by now. 

- You can't scry a person on a ship. (but you can in a house)
- You can't break into a ship that isn't sailing. (but you can with a gem. Yes, you can upkeep your eye sigils but if you go dormant and ever want to come back, you can't leave your things lying around the house for fear someone will happen to break in with a gem, which just strikes me as being flawed.)

I'm going to sound a bit like a hypocrite here, but can't we put houses on the same level of 'security' as ships? Perhaps as add-ons? You could make it so that people can't reincarnate with gem in the subs, or maybe have an add on for the first room of the house that stops souls from entering. Same for being unscryable (not sure if the 'privacy' room add on does this). Ships already have the advantage of being portable, they don't need to be the first choice for an unbreakable floating storeroom too.

I know that another reason for its unpopularity is the inconvenience of walking to the subdivisions and having to walk out again if you want to leave quickly. That's not something I see being able to change, but could it be possible to also have some kind of token of returning to your home, or something akin to the shipreturn skill? Make it have the same limitations as shipreturn so it isn't abused.

Housing credits: I've IDEA'd this already, but I think housing credits should really be transferable. Right now, if you decide to get rid of your ship, you can sell it to another adventurer. But if you want to transfer a plot, you have to delete all your rooms, and if you don't want to build another house then that's a complete loss of your investment as room credits can't be used for anything else. Please let us sell or gift our unwanted housing credits! 

I feel it is important to preemptively note here that I am not necessarily advocating for the creation of more 'saferooms', I just want to bring housing up to a level where people will be more inclined to use it widely as a roleplaying setting without worrying about the mechanics. But maybe I'm missing something? Do people have more to add? Tell me what you think.

Sarathai

Jurixe said:

I know that another reason for its unpopularity is the inconvenience of walking to the subdivisions and having to walk out again if you want to leave quickly. That's not something I see being able to change, but could it be possible to also have some kind of token of returning to your home, or something akin to the shipreturn skill?

Off the top of my head, wasn't there a new SoW item, or an auction item, or something, that did this in reverse? Where you could use it and instantly be at the subdivision entrance/exit?

Kyrra

An abode's emblem: 6 Mayan Crowns
  - Travel quickly to and from your subdivision plot with this emblem.
  - ATTUNE <emblem>   - When standing at a subdivision plot you own.
                      - This can be done once every 24 hours.
  - ACTIVATE <emblem> - When at subdivision entrance this will take you to the
                        attuned plot.
                      - When at attuned plot, this will take you to the
                        subdivision's entrance.

Jurixe

Aha! I thought there was something like that but couldn't recall. Maybe that will be next on my shopping list.

Nataliia

The only issue with that 'artefact' is that you still have to walk to the subdivision itself. Not really worth the investment in my opinion. I mean, what's a few more steps if you've already gotten yourself to the city and the subdivision already?

But I wholly agree with you @Jurixe. I can't say I've had much trouble with anyone in my own house(s) on any character, but that doesn't mean there will never come a time that I do. Plus, I genuinely feel bad for people who go dormant, own a sub or out of sub home, come back, and get wrecked by some asshole serpent who decided to rob someone just to get their rocks off, and said person then loses rare items or tons of minerals/comms/etc.

If houses had more utility I'd be all for it. I love having a ship, but at the end of the day the whole sailing part just isn't my thing. It's @Israyhl's, so it works for us to have a ship or ships, but for me I don't really feel like having to add every single person I ever want to have a "safe" conversation with to boarding perms. Plus, there's the whole monetary upkeep portion of ships, and having to move it every two weeks (even if it's just out of port and right back in). After my lengthy absence I came back to two sunken ships that had to be hauled back up from the bottom of the ocean. Really rather just have to replace sigils and the like when RL takes over, which it's wont to do.

The only thing even remotely close to the security of ships is to purchase a bed, but that's not really a practical thing to have a theological (or otherwise) debate in. Not to mention, you can only fit 3 people at most in a bed IF you spend a handful of crowns on top of the four-hundred some-odd credits to buy the bed itself.

Also, for RP purposes, I'd love to see more customisable options for servants, like having them be able to sell drinks or food, or give it to guests who ask. I asked about this once and was told there's no way to have that done (at the moment). Kind of hoping that'll be a viable change in the future, now that huge projects like the new class and what not are off the table.

The last thing is... I don't think there's a way to transfer a house that has been built in a subdivision to an out of sub plot if someone gets their hands on one. I can understand this might be due to the discrepancy in housing credit costs, but given that you're already paying a couple hundred credits to move a house from one sub to another sub, plus a couple hundred more credits in bed fees if you own one and need to move that too, I'd think it should be optional to be able to do this. Unless of course I've somehow read things wrong and this is actually an option. But I, personally, really would love to have a house that's not tied to any city's subdivision, and at this point that's not feasible. It'd require me to destroy my 7 room/4 door house, only get half the room credits I spent back, and then only have half of those (due to double costs) actually build what... a single room? (Don't judge me, math at 5am when I haven't slept isn't my strong suit!) That just bums me out to even think about...

Xaden

There's also the privacy and no prism upgrades if you were that way inclined.

Nataliia

Privacy is pretty much a joke for houses. It doesn't stop anyone from seeing where you are, or who's with you. It just stops some mindread/eavesdrop skills as far as I'm aware?

Anti-prism on the other hand is fantastic, but it still doesn't stop someone from following you into a house. Of course, eye sigils thrown/placed are great, but not fool proof.

Edit: Of course, I'm also a fan of the hood/gem/veil combo. But that's beside the point and doesn't help @Jurixie's point!

Kyrra

You can drop shimmering orbs to prevent things like veilglance showing your company but I doubt it's helpful against the WHO list with third-eye up.

It would be nice if the privacy housing upgrade had the permanent effect of a shimmering orb at the very least. 

One thing that I'd really like to have changed is the cost of a stable housing upgrade. It's pretty expensive when looking at OOS housing and I know quite a few people that would love to take advantage of this to keep most of their mounts and pets out of the way.

I'd also like to know if there's a way to have minipets made resetting to a House estate. For example, I live in the Tundra and happen to have a pasture covered in hoarfrost, and I'd really love to be able to have my tundra fawn be made to reset there as opposed to resetting to my inventory every five minutes. Most of the minipets that I kept and haven't traded in, I'd actually like to have made resetting to certain rooms in my house. 

Jurixe

The primary appeal of ships for conversion type things is that people on them can't be scryed, therefore they're much less likely to be disturbed. I don't particularly see a drawback to having that be an option for a room in a house; it could be prohibitively expensive, if you like (which many upgrades already are).

This is all conjecture since I don't know what's actually possible to code, just throwing out ideas. Another thing to consider is that many houses are shared by a fair amount of people, particularly family homes. I would really love it if, like a ship, you could give permission to people - friends, perhaps - and they could set a return to the house's front doorstep and share conveniences like stables.

That is the only reason I would ever get one, because just having the one mount doesn't really make it worth it.

Frederich

Ships also get to have the adverse effect that they can make you money,  whilst also being a way to drop off of QW, CWHO, and HWHO entirely by way of commscreen.

Ahmet

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but Id actually rather see ships dropped back down to be closer to housing. Scryable if youre in port, a way to get someone off a ship (or get to someone) if theyre docked, etc. Though, I dont think itll ever happen.

Saeva

I like ships the way thy are. Why make them crappy just because housing is crappy? I really wish housing was more private too. It's terribly annoying sometimes with the way it is.

Liyane

I will say, as a returning player, I have 0 interest in building a house at all but am eagerly trying to get a ship for just about all the reasons mentioned above.

Kresslack

Ships are fine, and were actually made more secure a while back as a result of people using other game mechanics (falcons, tracking, veilglance, etc) to quickly and easily locate other people at sea. I put those on the same level of people using the gem to break into houses, especially of dormant people. That was a big practice years ago and probably still is today.

I agree that you shouldn't be able to use such an artefact in a manner that it wasn't designed for. I'm all for housing getting some TLC and having options to make it more secure because it's a big attraction and a big investment.

Oh, and trading and perhaps even selling room credits should definitely be a thing. I think you should also be able to recoup at least half the room credits when selling a ship or out of sub plot to someone else as well.

Jurixe

Nataliia said:

The only issue with that 'artefact' is that you still have to walk to the subdivision itself. Not really worth the investment in my opinion. I mean, what's a few more steps if you've already gotten yourself to the city and the subdivision already?

I didn't realise that. Yes, that's also true: my house isn't that far from the subdivision entrance. What I'd like is the ability to return home when I'm far away, not when I'm already in the subs!

Also, for RP purposes, I'd love to see more customisable options for servants, like having them be able to sell drinks or food, or give it to guests who ask. I asked about this once and was told there's no way to have that done (at the moment). Kind of hoping that'll be a viable change in the future, now that huge projects like the new class and what not are off the table.

There are few things I would love more than this - or even just an expansion of the options to include roles like 'musician' or 'stableboy', but I don't see that being on the cards anytime soon. 

Nataliia

Jurixe said:

Nataliia said:

The only issue with that 'artefact' is that you still have to walk to the subdivision itself. Not really worth the investment in my opinion. I mean, what's a few more steps if you've already gotten yourself to the city and the subdivision already?

I didn't realise that. Yes, that's also true: my house isn't that far from the subdivision entrance. What I'd like is the ability to return home when I'm far away, not when I'm already in the subs!

Also, for RP purposes, I'd love to see more customisable options for servants, like having them be able to sell drinks or food, or give it to guests who ask. I asked about this once and was told there's no way to have that done (at the moment). Kind of hoping that'll be a viable change in the future, now that huge projects like the new class and what not are off the table.

There are few things I would love more than this - or even just an expansion of the options to include roles like 'musician' or 'stableboy', but I don't see that being on the cards anytime soon. 

Well technically, as far as I'm aware, you can customise housing servants... which means that in theory you actually could make one a stableboy or a musician or whatever else.

Jurixe

I think it has to be the same base name, though - so you can't customise 'a butler' to 'a stableboy', it would have to be 'a stable butler' or maybe 'a disheveled butler', which just isn't the same.

Bann

Jurixe said:

I think it has to be the same base name, though - so you can't customise 'a butler' to 'a stableboy', it would have to be 'a stable butler' or maybe 'a disheveled butler', which just isn't the same.

Jinsun has like, a serving wench on his ship.

Kogan

Couldn't the biggest concern (not letting someone break in and steal all of your valuables via gem) be fixed by not allowing gems to be used in personal houses whether in or out of subs? It seems to be the most likely instant fix. Also seems like a lot less work on the developer end to make this happen as opposed to reworking how housing works as a whole. As for the other issues I wouldn't mind a new option to purchase with room credits to make rooms non-scryable. Or even Shop of Wonder sigils that are non-decay and offer protection against such things. Or get this... an artifact chest with a code. Unlock chest#### <code>. Set chest#### <code>. Etc. The closest thing currently is a display case which if I remember correctly can only have items removed by its owner. By allowing coded chests you could at least RP sharing a house with someone. The code could be a set 4 digits or a passphrase.

Omor

In a game based around scripting, you want to set a numerical code on a chest with all your valuables in it? And have it only be 4 digits? I'm no mathematician, but I'm fairly certain that could be broken into fairly quickly.

Antonius

Omor said:

In a game based around scripting, you want to set a numerical code on a chest with all your valuables in it? And have it only be 4 digits? I'm no mathematician, but I'm fairly certain that could be broken into fairly quickly.

Generating 10,000 combinations is essentially nothing (we're talking less than a millisecond to execute that code). I think your main issue is going to be an admin shrubbing you for spamming the server with 10,000 commands in rapid succession to brute force a combination lock.

Kogan

Omor said:

In a game based around scripting, you want to set a numerical code on a chest with all your valuables in it? And have it only be 4 digits? I'm no mathematician, but I'm fairly certain that could be broken into fairly quickly.

I figured there would be enough thought put into it to prevent someone from trying forever. Like so many failed attempts and its locked until the owner attempts to open it again or for a certain amount of time. 4 digits was just an example as well. I'm fairly sure very basic precautions would prevent this.

Edit: Or just a chest with perms would be nice too.

Jurixe

Sadly, lockable objects (of any sort) have historically been disallowed. I don't think they're keen on having many of those. As for disallowing gems to be used in personal houses, I thought about that but it does seem like an awkward fix - what if someone prisms or portals to you and you die fighting them? Or what if you're doing a ritual or something? Making it a purchasable add-on might encourage more gold to be spent here, too, though that may be an optimistic view.

Antonius

They could just allow sigils to be made non-decay, so you can permanently eye sigil the entrance to your house.

Cooper

I wonder if you can customize/nondecay them already. Hmm.

Trey

Cooper said:

I wonder if you can customize/nondecay them already. Hmm.

Nothing from enchantments or forging, historically. 

Krypton

lmao, I still have invisible, nondecay monos from the Underrealm that the Garden forgot to flame/make unpick-up-able.

Made of a flat black metal, you can feel this small, rectangular sigil radiate

some kind of power.

It weighs 1 ounce(s).

It bears the distinctive mark of Yae.

I see @Yae has no scruples about doing enchant business with the Tsol'teth enemy.

I'll happily sell them at 2000cr per to concerned homeowners.

Greys

Could be in the form of a door upgrade so cannot be entered except by touching the door? 

Kogan

Jurixe said:

Sadly, lockable objects (of any sort) have historically been disallowed. I don't think they're keen on having many of those. As for disallowing gems to be used in personal houses, I thought about that but it does seem like an awkward fix - what if someone prisms or portals to you and you die fighting them? Or what if you're doing a ritual or something? Making it a purchasable add-on might encourage more gold to be spent here, too, though that may be an optimistic view.

If you die... I guess just embrace. Or take it a step further and just make it where you can only reincarnate in your own house. And the display cases are essentially locked to only the owner for what... 2 MCs or ~80cr each. 

Ahmet

Antonius said:

Omor said:

In a game based around scripting, you want to set a numerical code on a chest with all your valuables in it? And have it only be 4 digits? I'm no mathematician, but I'm fairly certain that could be broken into fairly quickly.

Generating 10,000 combinations is essentially nothing (we're talking less than a millisecond to execute that code). I think your main issue is going to be an admin shrubbing you for spamming the server with 10,000 commands in rapid succession to brute force a combination lock.

There's already a door with a 4-digit combination lock in Achaea. Just saying.

Tahquil

... I have a lockable chest. It's pretty awesome.