Auto-following target calls is bad, somehow, I guess

Exelethril

Google DeepMind Researchers Develop AI Kill Switch

Mishgul

I showed Achaea to one of the machine learning researchers at my company, I will get back to you guys if we get anywhere with this. I think Achaea is a little less complex than chess as there are already quite distinct routes towards "winning" and "losing" and less option for randomness succeeding. 

Exelethril

It's all in the fractional probability and "if salve", my friend

Kez

Vender said:

if someone is fighting with full auto alchemist (like I do) i consider that person playing dirty and will resort to my own dirty (bring a friend).

This broke my uncaffeinated brain. Is there a mistake in here somewhere?

Krypton

Yeah:

full metal alchemist

Rangor

Mishgul said:

I showed Achaea to one of the machine learning researchers at my company, I will get back to you guys if we get anywhere with this. I think Achaea is a little less complex than chess as there are already quite distinct routes towards "winning" and "losing" and less option for randomness succeeding. 

and so began the end.

Vender

I mean compared to the other  IRE games, there are less afflictions and less cure abilities so in turn there are less actions to input. and what i mean by auto alchemist is because it is not complex, and there's really just one route to go by class, you can auto it very easily compared to another class and since it outputs affs so quickly there is usually no correct choice in priority when playing against it.

(actually I don't the rate is the problem, but it is immune to clumsiness and bypasses rebounding and curseward)

Atalkez

Also top 3 hardest class to defend against, with no artie augment needed. Day 1 pwner.

Dunn

Alchemist is the top of my "nope" list for sure 

Farrah

Just kill them faster obv. Flawless strat.

Puxi

When a class isn't enjoyable to fight for a large number of people... It might be a sign.

Aegoth

shaman and alchie. shudder..

Atalkez

Shaman more like Jester. Has some serious kill strats, but also can be defended well when you know what to do.

Alchie is just a zerg from start to finish.

Puxi

Nothing from classleads ends up going through to make this class more enjoyable for others?

Aegoth

Atalkez said:

Shaman more like Jester. Has some serious kill strats, but also can be defended well when you know what to do.

Alchie is just a zerg from start to finish.

jester doesn't have icefort. Fuck icefort

Atalkez

Nothing that will make the class better to fight, while keeping it a solid kill class, no.

Need a way to mitigate tempers, mainly. It has paralysis at an awesome clip, which makes it super hindering on most classes+building bombs. 

Problem is when you reduce/change something, you have to give it something equal in return to compensate. Alchie is in a good spot overall offensively, so it's hard to make changes without altering the class dramatically.

Cynlael

rip icefort, fun ability... Until you remember you (as the shaman) don't have a mount, and they just constantly leap away

Farrah

Puxi said:

Nothing from classleads ends up going through to make this class more enjoyable for others?

The way the class operates and its simplicity make it difficult to balance. I don't think many people would consider it the "strongest" class, just one of the more annoying ones to fight for prep classes in particular because you have to run away.

If you directly eliminate the things that annoy people on the other side without neat new things to replace them, people would probably not want to play the class.

@Atalkez basically ninja'd me.

Vender

the choice is between tempers and affs, but either choice will result in bad things. the choice you make just determines which way you die. alchemist doesn't pressure anything else other than affs so if you change how tempers are cured, then alchemist would not be able to go anywhere so to speak.

Armali

I mean, it operates like pretty much every other momentum class, just slower and different room hindering methods. Priest is disrupt -> inquisition -> absolve or kelp -> hellsight -> lock. Serpent is para -> kelp -> snap lock, or para -> ginseng -> darkshade KO, or not-para -> prone -> scytherus. The only thing that's different is the timescale under which you operate and the nuances.

Aegoth

The way that alchemist operates is very different from serpent or priest... not sure where you're getting that idea.

With serpent, aff pressure is aff pressure, and smart prio switches can thwart a serpent long enough to get a kill setup, as well as rebounding/shielding/etc. As well, serpent locking is very telegraphed (omg thank you) via snapping, so just shield/rebound on a snap, run away, etc. If a serpent fucks up their snap lock, they have to start all over with hypnotising, which takes more time.

Priests aff route got gimped, so it's 1) not as dangerous and if they try to absolve well, not only can you alleviate the aff pressure, but sipping mana doesn't have any sort of punishment attached to it that would lead to a kill via affs, or vice versa (if you're managing disrupts properly).

With alchie, you're simultaneously building on 2 different kill paths which require the same type of cure balance.. and alleviating one kill path punishes you harshly by greatly aiding the other kill path.. so your curing is zero-sum. Priest and serpent are not zero-sum classes, so your comparison is confusing

Puxi

Think the word you are looking for is "telegraphed". I got you boo.

Farrah

I think for serpent, it's the stopping to hypnotise that makes it a lot more tame to me. Everytime the serpent has to stop to rehypnotise, you get to take a breath and do what you want. But rebounding/shield are also helpful, and now clumsiness as well, and tree tattoo/actives. Alchemist isn't hindered by rebounding or clumsiness, and tempers aren't cured by tree or actives. Also has a constant offense with no breaks.

Priest just doesn't have the kind of hinder output. Since the priest is only delivering random afflictions, they can't give constant paralysis pressure like other classes. Not to mention no mobile room hinder. You can tree/active/passive away their afflictions as well. Makes it feel more bearable, and like you can fight back.

Calira

Tempers pretty much guarantee a lock or a KO after a certain amount of time, but that's offset by the actual affliction rate of Alchemist being unimpressive - 2.4s for two affs, or 1.5s for one. This leaves more room to fight back and a significantly easier time avoiding the lock, since it's both slower and far more telegraphed than what Serpent can do. I'd much rather fight a good Alchemist than a good Serpent.

Aegoth

The affliction rate might be slower, but there's more you can do to hinder a serpent's output than an alchemist's by a long shot. There's significantly less room to fight an alchie once they're able to pile on the paralysis, because your choices are either: cure tempers and die to locks because you can't really fight back due to paralysis, or cure paralysis and get tempers stacked horrendously while also being clumsied and otherwise hindered. Alchemists don't have to really worry about the levels of protection that serpents have to, so a slightly slower aff rate is negligible.

TLDR: On paper, that might make sense. In practice, it doesn't

Farrah

I mean, it's 1.5 secs for 2 affs, and 2.4 secs for 3 affs. You can't ignore the tempers that require an herb balance to cure. You aren't supposed to lock with just truewrack unless they're curing tempers first. Not to mention homunculus slows their herb balance to 2.1 (2.4?) seconds, which makes even the truewrack two afflictions a fairly good speed everytime homunculus hits.

Calira

You can't treat tempers like afflictions. Curing them while in room with the Alchemist is effectively a non-option for the reasons that @Aegoth mentioned, so they don't really take herb balances that would otherwise be going to hindering afflictions. Furthermore, they don't have major impact until inundated. I would liken them far more to Hypnosis than to an extra affliction per combo.

Considering the recent change to Serpent, I'm happy to admit that I could be wrong about their hinder output and hinderability. When fighting Alchemists, I've only really noticed an extreme amount of hindering when they inundate phlegmatic early for lethargy, which is definitely something that should be part of the consideration, but it comes at cost to their kill progress. I also tend to fight them as Occultist, which is immune to clumsiness and whose de-synced balances make it more hindered by high paralysis up-time.

There's also the consideration that Serpent has the potential to kill way faster than Alchemist, and with less telegraph.

Atalkez

I'd have to disagree with the premise that you don't treat them like afflictions. That's exactly what they are. They aren't useless because they aren't doing anything meaningful on their own, it's the combination that makes it deadly. 

They are useful because you can bury them, and build them, and explode them without any real recourse defensively. They don't miss, you can't get away from alchie easily, and you can never cure them actively to keep them down once the fight is really underway and you would need to.

I'm not sure what else you think that they would be considered?

It being a slower 0>kill class doesn't necessarily mean anything, if through the course of its offense, it is taking minimal offense in return (which is currently the case as any class that can't hinder faster, which is basically limited to serpent). You can't discount these things when discussing how Alchemist works.

Farrah

Tempers aren't comparable to hypnosis or any kind of prep because they flatout kill you when they are finished building. Prep setups and hypnosis are survivable. The only balancing factor to tempers is that they -are- afflictions. Unlike hypnosis and prep, they can and must be cured.

So yes, they have to count as afflictions.

Calira

Atalkez said:

I'd have to disagree with the premise that you don't treat them like afflictions. That's exactly what they are. They aren't useless because they aren't doing anything meaningful on their own, it's the combination that makes it deadly. 

They are useful because you can bury them, and build them, and explode them without any real recourse defensively. They don't miss, you can't get away from alchie easily, and you can never cure them actively to keep them down once the fight is really underway and you would need to.

I'm not sure what else you think that they would be considered?

It being a slower 0>kill class doesn't necessarily mean anything, if through the course of its offense, it is taking minimal offense in return (which is currently the case as any class that can't hinder faster, which is basically limited to serpent). You can't discount these things when discussing how Alchemist works.

As I said, I'd consider them along similar lines to Hypnosis. Something that you can't practically do much about while fighting the Serpent/Alchemist, but which has the potential to end the fight in a burst of afflictions to lock you on top of the normal affliction progression.

Alternatively, consider it a time-bomb mechanic. 4 phlegmatic is the danger zone. 6/8 phlegmatic is an automatic loss. I'm not arguing against the potency of tempers, I'm simply arguing that you can't just pretend that they're as immediately impactful as an extra affliction per combo would be.

Edit: I also DEFINITELY didn't call them 'useless'